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a belt too

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  • katherinejsanders
    Forgot but saw the awesome Erik of Pomerania belt: silk woven belt about 1 1/2 inches wide, decorated with silver mounts and silver buckle and strap end (the
    Message 1 of 30 , May 27, 2004
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      Forgot but saw the awesome Erik of Pomerania belt: silk woven belt
      about 1 1/2 inches wide, decorated with silver mounts and silver
      buckle and strap end (the buckle and strap end are later, at 1400).
      Sorry the photos are blurry but I was photographing through glass -
      check out the cool weave pattern though. Now I wonder if I could
      do /that/ on a rigid heddle...
      K
    • Willow Polson
      Okay, I know I must be doing something wrong. I ve tried the turban style thing and it s just not working... I try to tie it snug enough to keep it on my head,
      Message 2 of 30 , May 27, 2004
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        Okay, I know I must be doing something wrong. I've tried the turban style
        thing and it's just not working... I try to tie it snug enough to keep it
        on my head, and it just slips off the front, and/or the back gets all
        uneven where the two halves cross over and it slips off there. I've tried
        experimenting with Kass' suggestion of a 18" wide x 2 yard piece, and
        experimented with creating my own trapezoidal thing that's about 28" at the
        widest point in the back and about 5 feet long for the ties. Both slip
        right off the back of my head no matter what I do. Maybe it's the shape of
        my head... *sigh*

        So now I'm thinking (after watching Colonial House, nyuk nyuk) of going
        with a coif and pinning a simple square to it, or just using a square of
        cloth that's tied in the back like you'd tie a neckerchief (but square
        instead of triangular). Are either of these based in any kind of reality?
        And what period is the coif that folds backwards at the front to form a
        cuff? I think I've seen them in manuscripts, but I'm not sure... I'll have
        to look for that one again... the pic that springs to mind is of a woman
        standing up and spinning with a distaff under her arm. The lay minister's
        wife has one on CH.

        Oh, and I absolutely detest anything covering my ears... drives me batty...
        so any non-ear-covering suggestions are especially desired! Thanks for
        your help.... 8-}

        - Willow (headcoverings are my bane) MacPherson

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
        Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
        http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      • xina_xina
        Hi Willow. I don t know what fabric you re using, but if it isn t linen, you might try this with (real, 100%) linen. For my headcovering I use linen bands and
        Message 3 of 30 , May 27, 2004
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          Hi Willow.

          I don't know what fabric you're using, but if it isn't linen, you
          might try this with (real, 100%) linen. For my headcovering I use
          linen bands and silk veils. The linen is so wonderfully grip-y, I
          almost don't need to pin it together; if the bands weren't so narrow
          (mine are really narrow -- didn't give them enough seam allowance) I
          think they'd most happily stay stuck on my head. Linen likes to hold
          on to itself, almost like a mild velcro.

          There's also *oodles* of head wrapping info available here:
          http://www.idcw.org.uk/headdress.html

          Best of luck! I'll be trying a turban soon, I'm sure. :)

          -Edith-
          Edith de Laufare, who considered registering wimples-are-fun.com

          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Willow Polson <willow@c...>
          wrote:
          > Okay, I know I must be doing something wrong. I've tried the turban
          style
          > thing and it's just not working... I try to tie it snug enough to
          keep it
          > on my head, and it just slips off the front, and/or the back gets
          all
          > uneven where the two halves cross over and it slips off there. I've
          tried
          > experimenting with Kass' suggestion of a 18" wide x 2 yard piece,
          and
          > experimented with creating my own trapezoidal thing that's about
          28" at the
          > widest point in the back and about 5 feet long for the ties. Both
          slip
          > right off the back of my head no matter what I do. Maybe it's the
          shape of
          > my head... *sigh*
          >
          > So now I'm thinking (after watching Colonial House, nyuk nyuk) of
          going
          > with a coif and pinning a simple square to it, or just using a
          square of
          > cloth that's tied in the back like you'd tie a neckerchief (but
          square
          > instead of triangular). Are either of these based in any kind of
          reality?
          > And what period is the coif that folds backwards at the front to
          form a
          > cuff? I think I've seen them in manuscripts, but I'm not sure...
          I'll have
          > to look for that one again... the pic that springs to mind is of a
          woman
          > standing up and spinning with a distaff under her arm. The lay
          minister's
          > wife has one on CH.
          >
          > Oh, and I absolutely detest anything covering my ears... drives me
          batty...
          > so any non-ear-covering suggestions are especially desired! Thanks
          for
          > your help.... 8-}
          >
          > - Willow (headcoverings are my bane) MacPherson
        • wodeford
          ... [Insert sound of crickets chirping innocently] Anyway, some thoughts: 1. Freshly washed and conditioned hair may be the cause of some of the slippage. If
          Message 4 of 30 , May 27, 2004
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Willow Polson <willow@c...>
            wrote:
            > Maybe it's the shape of my head... *sigh*
            [Insert sound of crickets chirping innocently]

            Anyway, some thoughts:

            1. Freshly washed and conditioned hair may be the cause of some of
            the slippage. If you can time your shampoo routine and your coif
            wearing schedule so that you've got some of the natural oils back
            where they belong, it may help reduce the natural tendency of the
            fabric to leap off your head.

            2. Some fabrics are more naturally slidy than others. My veils are
            all linen. Silks can be slippery.

            3. Is your hair long enough to put up? If it is, you can use a
            combination of fabric bands, hairpins and your own hair to create a
            foundation that you can pin your headcovering to with straight pins.
            (Yes, really).

            Hope this gives you some ideas.

            Jehanne de Wodeford
          • Karen Hall
            My favourite easy period head covering is a style called a trezendo (not sure if I ve spelled that right, but anyway). I ve seen it used with 15th and 16th
            Message 5 of 30 , May 27, 2004
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              My favourite easy period head covering is a style called a trezendo (not sure if
              I've spelled that right, but anyway). I've seen it used with 15th and 16th
              century Spanish women's clothing, and in 15th century Italian pictures (mainly
              for older, non-upperclass women). I like it because a) it is really easy and
              comfortable and b) it suit's almost any hair length, and hides short hair
              well.

              If your hair is long enough, tie it back in a low ponytail. Take a rectangle of
              white fabric (should be linen, but I use cotton lawn) about 60cm by 1 metre.
              Place the shorter edge and tie it round your head bandana-style, with the knot
              below the ponytail - it should be reasonably tight, but not too tight or you
              will get a headache. If my ears are covered, I pull the fabric up a little so
              they are free. If you have enough fabric left after the knot is tied, then knot
              it again above the ponytail, and tuck the loose ends under the fabric. This
              should give you a sort of tube effect covering your head and hair as it falls
              down your back.

              At this point you have two options. Option one - take a ribbon, tie it where the
              ponytail is, and wrap it around the fabric (spiral or criss-cross) - you now
              have a long covered plait falling down your back. Option two - make sure the
              'tube' covers your hair. Twist it (kind of like you were wringing it out) then
              wrap it around your head in a circle, tucking the end under the fabric where it
              is tied at the base of the neck.

              I'd tell you where to find pictures, but the ones I have are on paper at home or
              in other people's books, but if anyone knows it, there is a good picture
              (Italian 15th century) of an angel throwing gold balls through a window to
              three girls, one of whom looks like she is tying up her hair in this manner.

              Hope this helps, Alessandra
            • Willow Polson
              ... Hm... I ll have to experiment with that. Thanks! - Willow MacPherson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rev. Willow Polson
              Message 6 of 30 , May 27, 2004
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                At 09:15 AM 5/28/2004 +0800, you wrote:

                >My favourite easy period head covering is a style called a trezendo (not
                >sure if
                >I've spelled that right, but anyway).

                Hm... I'll have to experiment with that. Thanks!

                - Willow MacPherson


                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
                Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
                http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              • ladymorwenna
                ... Last Pennsic I took a class with Constance Fairfax on Flemish veils (a la Breugel). The demo veils with were flour sack towels that had been *heavily*
                Message 7 of 30 , May 28, 2004
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                  > So now I'm thinking (after watching Colonial House, nyuk nyuk) of
                  > going with a coif and pinning a simple square to it, or just using a
                  > square of cloth that's tied in the back like you'd tie a neckerchief
                  > (but square instead of triangular). Are either of these based in any
                  > kind of reality?
                  >
                  > - Willow (headcoverings are my bane) MacPherson

                  Last Pennsic I took a class with Constance Fairfax on Flemish veils (a
                  la Breugel). The demo veils with were flour sack towels that had been
                  *heavily* starched, and had a crease pressed into the center. The
                  simplest version was just to pop it on your head and use 3 straight
                  pins to pin it to your hair (one on each side and one right on top).
                  Once that was done, there were all sort of variations you could do
                  with folding and pinning the veil. Alas, my notebook is at home, but
                  there are lots of examples in Breugel's paintings.

                  My hair is fine and wasn't pulled back tight enough to make a good
                  foundation for the pins, which were slipping. I had been wearing a
                  wired coif, so I put it back on and pinned the veil to that. It looked
                  great!

                  --Morwenna
                • Lady_Lark_Azure
                  ... trezendo (not ... The wrapped around the head style of this is what I use in warm weather and whenever I m cooking a feast. I have long, thick hair and it
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 28, 2004
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Willow Polson <willow@c...>
                    wrote:
                    > At 09:15 AM 5/28/2004 +0800, you wrote:
                    >
                    > >My favourite easy period head covering is a style called a
                    trezendo (not
                    > >sure if
                    > >I've spelled that right, but anyway).

                    The wrapped around the head style of this is what I use in warm
                    weather and whenever I'm cooking a feast. I have long, thick hair
                    and it keeps me cool. Also realize that you need to have it far
                    enough down on your forehead to be slightly beyond the "halfway mark"
                    so that you are past the widest part of your head, otherwise it will
                    still slide off. The piece I use is also linen and it does grip
                    really well.

                    Isabeau
                  • ACatelli@manafortbrothers.com
                    ... Well, I tie mine over my ears & my poor ears get red & a little sore, but the headdress doesn t fall off--if I put my hair up first. The scarf, in pretty
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 28, 2004
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                      > Okay, I know I must be doing something wrong. I've tried the
                      > turban style
                      > thing and it's just not working... I try to tie it snug
                      > enough to keep it
                      > on my head, and it just slips off the front, and/or the back gets all
                      > uneven where the two halves cross over and it slips off
                      > there. I've tried
                      > experimenting with Kass' suggestion of a 18" wide x 2 yard piece, and
                      > experimented with creating my own trapezoidal thing that's
                      > about 28" at the
                      > widest point in the back and about 5 feet long for the ties.
                      > Both slip
                      > right off the back of my head no matter what I do. Maybe it's
                      > the shape of
                      > my head... *sigh*

                      Well, I tie mine over my ears & my poor ears get red & a little sore, but
                      the headdress doesn't fall off--if I put my hair up first.

                      The scarf, in pretty much any way I tie it, starts at about eyebrow level,
                      although it slips up when the scarf is tightened.

                      I've managed Kass's turban style, but my hair was dripping wet at the time.

                      I'd need a longer piece of cloth now, as my hair has grown & 60" was none
                      too long then.
                      My hair is too straight & slippery even several days after washing, I needed
                      the help of wet hair.


                      > Oh, and I absolutely detest anything covering my ears...
                      > drives me batty...
                      > so any non-ear-covering suggestions are especially desired!
                      > Thanks for
                      > your help.... 8-}
                      >
                      > - Willow (headcoverings are my bane) MacPherson

                      Most headcoverings for women in most of the Middle Ages covered the ears,
                      except for some fifteenth century truncated sugar loaf hat with jewelry
                      pieces tracing part of a rectangle in front of and under the ears.
                      I'm thinking that the portraits are by the usual suspects in mid-15th
                      century--van der Weyden, Portrait of a Woman, c. 1464, Oil on oak panel,
                      36,5 x 27 cm, National Gallery, London http://gallery.euroweb.hu/ look up
                      van der Weyden, portraits, nearly the last portrait on the page.

                      There are others.

                      Ann in CT
                    • Willow Polson
                      Thank you so much Morwenna!!! 8-) - Willow MacPherson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rev. Willow Polson
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 28, 2004
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                        Thank you so much Morwenna!!! 8-)

                        - Willow MacPherson

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
                        Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
                        http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      • Willow Polson
                        Thanks again!! I knew you guys could help me.... 8-) - Willow MacPherson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rev. Willow Polson
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 28, 2004
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                          Thanks again!! I knew you guys could help me.... 8-)

                          - Willow MacPherson

                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
                          Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
                          http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                          ... What works for me with any style of headcovering - and before I discovered this I was always messing with clips and pins and combs and whatnot and
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 28, 2004
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                            --- Willow Polson <willow@...> wrote:
                            > Okay, I know I must be doing something wrong. I've
                            > tried the turban style
                            > thing and it's just not working...

                            What works for me with any style of headcovering - and
                            before I discovered this I was always messing with
                            clips and pins and combs and whatnot and scarves/veils
                            STILL slipped off - is to braid my hair in two plaits
                            and wind it round my head. (The way I do that, btw,
                            given thin hair that doesn't want to grow any longer,
                            is to braid three strands of ribbon or other
                            textile-type strands into my hair, continue braiding
                            the cord/ribbon after I run out of hair, finishing
                            with an overhand knot, wrap the two braids over the
                            top and tie together at the nape. Don't know how
                            period it is in detail, but it's certainly more so
                            than clips and rubberbands.) Anyhow, the braided
                            coronet gives enough friction and anchorage to keep
                            just about any headcovering I've tried firmly in
                            place.

                            Gwervyl




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                          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                            In a message dated 5/28/2004 3:57:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 31, 2004
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                              In a message dated 5/28/2004 3:57:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                              Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

                              <<Okay, I know I must be doing something wrong. I've tried the turban style
                              thing and it's just not working... I try to tie it snug enough to keep it
                              on my head, and it just slips off the front, and/or the back gets all
                              uneven where the two halves cross over and it slips off there.>>

                              There are a whole bunch of different ways to get the same looks we see in
                              period art. It's not always possible to tell exactly which one was being used,
                              so I encourage people to experiment and see what works for them.
                              It sounds like you are trying to do the turban by the "Aunt Jemima" method,
                              correct? Put the center of the fabric over the head, wrap the ends around and
                              tie? I do mine totally differently.
                              I place the *short* end of the fabric over my head, with the front about down
                              to my nose and the back being where the rest of the fabric hangs down. I
                              gather the fabric to the back and start twisting it together tightly, twisting my
                              single back center braid inside the fabric. I then take the resulting rope,
                              bring it around to the right side of my head, across the front, and back
                              around the left side of my head, and tuck the excess down through the back where he
                              rope starts. Tighten it, tuck the bit hanging down in the front up over the
                              rolled up part, and that's it. It will stay all day, no matter what I'm doing.

                              The fabric matters, too; this or anything that involves tying is going to
                              work better with fabric that has some friction. I use linen; I expect some forms
                              of silk would just slip.

                              <<So now I'm thinking (after watching Colonial House, nyuk nyuk) of going
                              with a coif and pinning a simple square to it, or just using a square of
                              cloth that's tied in the back like you'd tie a neckerchief (but square
                              instead of triangular). Are either of these based in any kind of reality? >>

                              In 12th century art, you see some women who have what appears to be a tightly
                              fitted band under the front of their veils. That's all you can see, so there
                              is no way to tell if it is a headband, a skullcap, a coif, or a triangular or
                              square-folded-to-triangular neckerchief type arrangement. In the veil class
                              I teach, I suggest either the headband or the triangular tied at the back of
                              the neck version for this piece. I personally don't think it's a coif as I
                              can't see any of the lower parts that would normally hang around the ears/cheeks,
                              and I don't know enough about wearing a skullcap to know how to make that
                              stay on securely. Whatever it is needs to be securely fastened so that you can
                              pin the veil to it with straight pins. These are underpinnings to attach the
                              veil to rather than the actual headdress in it's own right. It's also
                              possible, if you have very thick hair or hair that is long enough to braid into a
                              crown around your head, to simply pin the veil into the hair or braids and have it
                              stay securely. I've seen no evidence anywhere for the kerchief tied at the
                              back of the neck as the sole headdress.

                              Brangwayna


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • msgilliandurham
                              (BTW, is top posting okay on this group?) I use a triangle scarf as a basis for my headcovering -- it s actually a white bandana from Hobby Lobby -- usually
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 1, 2004
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                                (BTW, is top posting okay on this group?)

                                I use a triangle scarf as a basis for my headcovering -- it's
                                actually a white bandana from Hobby Lobby -- usually $1, sometimes on
                                sale for 50 cents. I braid and fasten my hair up at the back of my
                                head, then drape the diagonal fold slightly over my forehead and tie
                                the scarf at the nape of my neck; I then tuck the third corner into
                                the knot. The loose edges can then be tucked or rolled under to
                                completely cover my head. This forms a basis for whatever type of
                                outer headcovering I'm wearing.

                                It's my recollection that crocheted snoods by themselves are not what
                                we wore "back home" -- at least not without a fabric "bag" cap under
                                them. More often we had a fabric bag cap that had been embroidered
                                with a net design. I find the fabric bag sticks well enough to the
                                scarf that I don't need to use pins, but you certainly could if you
                                needed to.

                                And if you are looking for a large square of white fabric, already
                                hemmed, try flour sack towels. 100% cotton, not linen, but
                                inexpensive and usually about 30 inches square. They work until you
                                have time to hand hem a piece of linen.

                                Gillian Durham

                                > In a message dated 5/28/2004 3:57:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                                > Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                >
                                > <<So now I'm thinking (after watching Colonial House, nyuk nyuk) of
                                going
                                > with a coif and pinning a simple square to it, or just using a
                                square of
                                > cloth that's tied in the back like you'd tie a neckerchief (but
                                square
                                > instead of triangular). [...]

                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, bronwynmgn@a... wrote:

                                > In 12th century art, you see some women who have what appears to be
                                a tightly
                                > fitted band under the front of their veils. That's all you can
                                see, so there
                                > is no way to tell if it is a headband, a skullcap, a coif, or a
                                triangular or
                                > square-folded-to-triangular neckerchief type arrangement. In the
                                veil class
                                > I teach, I suggest either the headband or the triangular tied at
                                the back of
                                > the neck version for this piece. [...]
                              • wodeford
                                ... As long as you snip what is no longer pertinent from the bottom of the post. This list can get pretty active. Please be courteous to our members and snip
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jun 1, 2004
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                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "msgilliandurham"
                                  <msgilliandurham@y...> wrote:
                                  > (BTW, is top posting okay on this group?)
                                  As long as you snip what is no longer pertinent from the bottom of
                                  the post. This list can get pretty active. Please be courteous to our
                                  members and snip your posts where needed.

                                  Thank you,
                                  Jehanne de Wodeford

                                  BTW, crocheted snoods, IIRC, are a post period development, however,
                                  there were techniques for netting that were used for hair coverings.
                                  (You can buy very fine hairnets in colors to match your own hair at
                                  most drugstores in the section where they keep hairbrushes, hairpins,
                                  etc.)
                                • ACatelli@manafortbrothers.com
                                  ... used, ... So true. Also fun to experiment--I recommend a 15x60 , a 1-yard square and a 45 square scarf to get most variants. Dharma trading carries
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jun 1, 2004
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                                    > There are a whole bunch of different ways to get the same looks we see in
                                    > period art. It's not always possible to tell exactly which one was being
                                    used,
                                    > so I encourage people to experiment and see what works for them.

                                    So true.

                                    Also fun to experiment--I recommend a 15x60", a 1-yard square and a 45"
                                    square scarf to get most variants.
                                    Dharma trading carries hand-hemmed cotton scarves for reasonable.
                                    If you then find that all the varients you like take a 45" square, you can
                                    get as nice a linen as you can find & upgrade to that, doing your own hand
                                    hemming.


                                    > It sounds like you are trying to do the turban by the "Aunt Jemima"
                                    method,
                                    > correct? Put the center of the fabric over the head, wrap the ends around
                                    and
                                    > tie?

                                    Except that hers is very definitely a triangle or
                                    square-folded-into-a-triangle & the ends left to dangle.
                                    I associate the look with 'pirates, arrrrrr'.


                                    > (snip Brangwayna's variants & good advise)

                                    > I've seen no evidence anywhere for the kerchief tied at the
                                    > back of the neck as the sole headdress.
                                    >
                                    > Brangwayna

                                    Not if it's a simple knot, but I've seen plenty of one or two scarves
                                    knotted & draped around the head, some with ends dangling, more with all
                                    'bits' tucked up.
                                    Mostly with the scarves square-on, so a hemmed edge is across the forehead.

                                    I've been looking mostly at 14th & 15th century manuscripts & the Manesse
                                    codex, especially on the poorer women.
                                    Dame Poverty herself is wearing the head scarf style I do most in one
                                    manuscript, but I'm at work away from my references. I have seen it on
                                    other figures, too, those recieving alms or working in the background of a
                                    seasonal-activity calendar panel.


                                    Ann in CT
                                  • Willow Polson
                                    ... Right..... but AFAIK they were extremely careful in Colonial House to get everything completely authentically correct, and I saw women wearing
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jun 1, 2004
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                                      At 12:16 PM 6/1/2004 -0400, you wrote:
                                      >I associate the look with 'pirates, arrrrrr'.

                                      Right..... but AFAIK they were extremely careful in Colonial House to get
                                      everything completely authentically correct, and I saw women wearing
                                      "kerchief-like" head coverings tied in the back....

                                      >Not if it's a simple knot, but I've seen plenty of one or two scarves
                                      >knotted & draped around the head, some with ends dangling, more with all
                                      >'bits' tucked up.

                                      I've seen some of these sorts of things....but I don't really get what
                                      you're describing... one or two scarves... draped... dangling... tucked
                                      up.... knotted.... I'm feeling very lost. 8-\

                                      >I've been looking mostly at 14th & 15th century manuscripts & the Manesse
                                      >codex, especially on the poorer women.
                                      >Dame Poverty herself is wearing the head scarf style I do most in one
                                      >manuscript, but I'm at work away from my references. I have seen it on
                                      >other figures, too, those recieving alms or working in the background of a
                                      >seasonal-activity calendar panel.

                                      I should clarify that I'm looking for what would be appropriate to a
                                      middle-class woman (not poor, not rich) in the 15th - 16th centuries.


                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                      Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
                                      Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
                                      http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                    • Wendy
                                      ... I ve seen no evidence anywhere for the kerchief tied at the ... I know I was bad on Sunday with the coif-tied-in-a-knot-at-the- back... but sitting in my
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jun 1, 2004
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                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Brangwayna wrote:
                                        I've seen no evidence anywhere for the kerchief tied at the
                                        > back of the neck as the sole headdress.
                                        >
                                        > Brangwayna

                                        I know I was bad on Sunday with the coif-tied-in-a-knot-at-the-
                                        back... but sitting in my basket were the wimple and veil that were
                                        *supposed* to go on over that for the evening. I was just so
                                        abjectly miserable with hay fever that I couldn't face dealing with
                                        them. :( I also wound up playing my Boehm-system flute for several
                                        pieces, so all in all not a good authenticity day for me. <sigh> It
                                        looked like other people were having fun, though...

                                        I'm really mostly responding to this message because I wanted to get
                                        out a small note for those who were at the Alle's Faire event: It
                                        may be a little late, but please have someone check you very
                                        carefully for deer ticks, which are *very* small and hard to see. I
                                        came home with two, only one of which I would ever have found on my
                                        own.

                                        -Sabine
                                      • Allyson Tripp Rozell
                                        I ve found that wearing a lightweight veil over my mouth and nose does help cut down my hay fever reaction. It certainly doesn t filter out everything, but it
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jun 1, 2004
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                                          I've found that wearing a lightweight veil over my mouth and nose does help
                                          cut down my hay fever reaction. It certainly doesn't filter out everything,
                                          but it does seem to reduce my exposure. Plus it is likely to be a period
                                          solution!

                                          Allyson

                                          At 04:49 PM 6/1/04 +0000, you wrote:

                                          >-but sitting in my basket were the wimple and veil that were
                                          >*supposed* to go on over that for the evening. I was just so
                                          >abjectly miserable with hay fever that I couldn't face dealing with
                                          >them. :(
                                          > -Sabine

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                                        • wodeford
                                          ... to get ... wearing ... Colonial House was set up to provide the colonists with authentic clothing and living conditions and two weeks worth of training
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jun 1, 2004
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                                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Willow Polson <willow@c...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > Right..... but AFAIK they were extremely careful in Colonial House
                                            to get
                                            > everything completely authentically correct, and I saw women
                                            wearing
                                            > "kerchief-like" head coverings tied in the back....

                                            "Colonial House" was set up to provide the colonists with authentic
                                            clothing and living conditions and two weeks worth of training at
                                            Plimoth Plantation on how to chop wood without taking off a foot and
                                            so on. Once they turned their colonists loose without supervision,
                                            entropy and modern attitudes had their way. There was a great deal
                                            of shimmying into pre-laced corsets and not bothering to adjust the
                                            lacing. I have to wonder how much hair made it into the pease
                                            pottage because nobody ever put it up into anything neater than a
                                            ponytail. I would take the "Colonial House" do-rags with a grain of
                                            salt.

                                            Besides, I saw that Bethany kid smuggling bobbypins back from Texas.
                                            ;->

                                            Have you seen the ladies' headwear at Historic Enterprises?
                                            http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m=product_list&c=16

                                            There are some styles that are appropriate for the 15th and 16th
                                            century that may give you some ideas.

                                            Tuppenceworth,
                                            Jehanne de Wodeford
                                          • ketamina06
                                            ... wrote: Once they turned their colonists loose without supervision, ... the ... of ... That s the issue that bothers me the most: folks like us who really
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@y...>
                                              wrote:
                                              Once they turned their colonists loose without supervision,
                                              > entropy and modern attitudes had their way. There was a great deal
                                              > of shimmying into pre-laced corsets and not bothering to adjust
                                              the
                                              > lacing. I have to wonder how much hair made it into the pease
                                              > pottage because nobody ever put it up into anything neater than a
                                              > ponytail. I would take the "Colonial House" do-rags with a grain
                                              of
                                              > salt.

                                              That's the issue that bothers me the most: folks like us who really
                                              want to try and recreate...LIVE... history are sitting on the wrong
                                              side of the television! I watch shows like Colonial House (and
                                              before that, the Pioneer series) and Survivor and wonder, where do
                                              they get these people? Of course I understand that ratings require
                                              the stars of the show to struggle through difficulty, but I get more
                                              satisfaction out of watching people do things right (to the best of
                                              our knowledge) and do them well.

                                              I begin to wonder if the lot of us are just plain certifiable, but
                                              then I remember that we focus on these aspects of history for many
                                              good and explainable reasons. So, when are WE going to get to be
                                              guests on a show like this, and try our mettle against 'real life'
                                              situations that last longer than a weekend?

                                              Come on PBS, when does Medieval Village start airing?!

                                              :) Whew, rant over.

                                              L. Keterlyn LeFave
                                            • Willow Polson
                                              ... Off the street, apparently.... I think that s the intention, the fish out of water thing. Makes better TV, and, as someone else pointed out, the normal
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                                At 04:00 PM 6/2/2004 +0000, you wrote:
                                                >I watch shows like Colonial House (and
                                                >before that, the Pioneer series) and Survivor and wonder, where do
                                                >they get these people?

                                                Off the street, apparently.... I think that's the intention, the "fish out
                                                of water" thing. Makes better TV, and, as someone else pointed out, the
                                                "normal" people watching the show (i.e. not us) can relate to them better.

                                                >So, when are WE going to get to be
                                                >guests on a show like this, and try our mettle against 'real life'
                                                >situations that last longer than a weekend?

                                                Heh..... don't hold yer breath. Although maybe some well-placed letters
                                                would generate a new kind of reality show, eh? "Reenactor House".....
                                                hmmm...! 8-)

                                                >Come on PBS, when does Medieval Village start airing?!

                                                Yeah, I've been wishing for that one since seeing 1900 House. 8-)

                                                - Willow MacPherson

                                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
                                                Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
                                                http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
                                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                              • msgilliandurham
                                                ... [...]I watch shows like Colonial House (and ... Unfortunately, probably never :-( During a Washington Post online chat with the exectutive producer, Beth
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "ketamina06" <ketamina06@y...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  [...]I watch shows like Colonial House (and
                                                  > before that, the Pioneer series) and Survivor and wonder, where do
                                                  > they get these people? [...]So, when are WE going to get to be
                                                  > guests on a show like this, and try our mettle against 'real life'
                                                  > situations that last longer than a weekend?

                                                  Unfortunately, probably never :-(

                                                  During a Washington Post online chat with the exectutive producer,
                                                  Beth Hoppe (see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42718-
                                                  2004May20.html, requires registration) Ms. Hoppe specifically stated
                                                  that they didn't want anyone who was an "expert" on the time period.

                                                  Personally, I quit watching after the first night -- too much
                                                  sociology and not enough anthopology for me :-)

                                                  Gillian Durham
                                                • aheilvei
                                                  So, when are WE going to get to be ... It s called Pennsic, and Estrella, and Rowany, and Gulf Wars. If you re bringing your cooler and your sneakers and your
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                                    So, when are WE going to get to be
                                                    > guests on a show like this, and try our mettle against 'real life'
                                                    > situations that last longer than a weekend?
                                                    >
                                                    >

                                                    It's called Pennsic, and Estrella, and Rowany, and Gulf Wars. If
                                                    you're bringing your cooler and your sneakers and your flashlight,
                                                    and all your other modern 'camping' amenities to these events,
                                                    you're denying yourself the opportunity to live as people see on
                                                    these sorts of reality shows.

                                                    As for when someone who knows something will appear on one of these
                                                    types of television shows - whenever they submit an application for
                                                    the show and are accepted as part of the cast.

                                                    Smiles,
                                                    Despina
                                                  • Willow Polson
                                                    ... ROTFL! Yes, someday I ll be able to get to one of those..... 8-) I m hoping for Estrella next year... ... Yep..... absoposilutely. Or something like that.
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                                      At 07:54 PM 6/2/2004 +0000, you wrote:
                                                      >It's called Pennsic, and Estrella, and Rowany, and Gulf Wars.

                                                      ROTFL! Yes, someday I'll be able to get to one of those..... 8-) I'm hoping
                                                      for Estrella next year...

                                                      > If
                                                      >you're bringing your cooler and your sneakers and your flashlight,
                                                      >and all your other modern 'camping' amenities to these events,
                                                      >you're denying yourself the opportunity to live as people see on
                                                      >these sorts of reality shows.

                                                      Yep..... absoposilutely. Or something like that. 8-) If only I had a
                                                      stable of experts at my beck and call to clothe me and give me period foods
                                                      and tools..... *sigh* THEN we'd be getting somewhere! LOL

                                                      - Willow (oatmeal, breakfast of champions) MacPherson
                                                    • aheilvei
                                                      ... had a stable of experts at my beck and call to clothe me and give me period foods and tools..... *sigh* THEN we d be getting somewhere! LOL ... And what
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                                        > Yep..... absoposilutely. Or something like that. 8-) If only I
                                                        had a stable of experts at my beck and call to clothe me and give
                                                        me period foods and tools..... *sigh* THEN we'd be getting
                                                        somewhere! LOL
                                                        >
                                                        >

                                                        And what is available here? A bulging compilation of resources in
                                                        the files, links, and database sections for everyone who joins this
                                                        group - as well as the archives, there is a lot in the archives.

                                                        Don't know how to make non-cooler camping food? look though the
                                                        archives or in the files section; in the files section you'll find a
                                                        folder labled "Events without a cooler". Some of it's as easy as
                                                        anything considered 'normal' today - poached eggs, what we now call
                                                        French toast, cheese, fruit, sausages, stews, and more!

                                                        Not sure about the new dress you want to make? The links section has
                                                        a folder titled, "clothing" and another titled, "Fabrics" so you can
                                                        find the fabric to make the clothing. Tons of websites with tips and
                                                        hints. The files section also has a lot of hints and tips on how to
                                                        make stuff and the archives are just chock full of such things.

                                                        The information is there for everyone to use. Putting it to use is
                                                        up to those who have it at their fingertips.

                                                        Despina
                                                      • Allyson Tripp Rozell
                                                        Sure, the info is there (well, a lot of it, anyway), but where are the servants to implement it?!? Or at least to do my mundane chores so I can get at it
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                                          Sure, the info is there (well, a lot of it, anyway), but where are the
                                                          servants to implement it?!?
                                                          Or at least to do my mundane chores so I can get at it myself...

                                                          Allyson, wanting some authentic servants

                                                          At 12:19 AM 6/3/04 +0000, you wrote:


                                                          > > Yep..... absoposilutely. Or something like that. 8-) If only I
                                                          >had a stable of experts at my beck and call to clothe me and give
                                                          >me period foods and tools..... *sigh* THEN we'd be getting
                                                          >somewhere! LOL
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                          >And what is available here? A bulging compilation of resources in
                                                          >the files, links, and database sections for everyone who joins this
                                                          >group - as well as the archives, there is a lot in the archives.
                                                          >...
                                                          >Despina

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                                                        • Willow Polson
                                                          ... Right.... but I meant I was hoping for free clothes and food and tools like the Colonial House folks... then we d be getting somewhere! 8-) - Willow
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                                            At 12:19 AM 6/3/2004 +0000, you wrote:
                                                            >And what is available here? A bulging compilation of resources in
                                                            >the files, links, and database sections for everyone who joins this
                                                            >group - as well as the archives, there is a lot in the archives.

                                                            Right.... but I meant I was hoping for free clothes and food and tools like
                                                            the Colonial House folks... then we'd be getting somewhere! 8-)

                                                            - Willow MacPherson


                                                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                            Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
                                                            Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
                                                            http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
                                                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                          • Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
                                                            I ve tried this style and had one problem - my hair is rather thick (such that half my hair plaited can pass for annother s whole hair plait), as well as hip
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                                              I've tried this style and had one problem - my hair is rather thick
                                                              (such that half my hair plaited can pass for annother's whole hair
                                                              plait), as well as hip length. (longer now - I need a longer veil to
                                                              do this). So with the hair twisted into the turban, I get a rather
                                                              bulky outer rim of the turban, noticeably thicker on the side that the
                                                              hair went to first. The weight is also lopsided, and gets a bit tiring
                                                              by the end of the day (and probably helps pull the turban undone
                                                              quicker (ie after an hour or two) that if it were more even (a longer
                                                              cloth would probably help here).

                                                              Anyway, has anyone else had this problem and found a solution? I've
                                                              tried putting my hair inside the turban, but it doesn't work well with
                                                              just a plait, and doing a hairstyle kinda destroys the convenience of
                                                              the quick turban. (and the turban slips easier) Meanwhile I'll
                                                              experiment with other turban styles when the need arises, but I though
                                                              it was worth asking.


                                                              Teffania
                                                              p.s. inauthentic very hot weather cheat, to help you cope with
                                                              temperatures way above those such clothing came from - slip a few
                                                              iceblocks into your turban. As they melt the gentle drip of cool
                                                              water down your neck may keep you smiling while others shed layers and
                                                              headwear to a level of undressedness that would be shockingly rude in
                                                              most medieval periods and places. Probably less effective in highly
                                                              humid climates like pennsic, but works well in hot dryish ones.



                                                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Karen Hall <karenh@c...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > My favourite easy period head covering is a style called a trezendo
                                                              (not sure if
                                                              > I've spelled that right, but anyway). I've seen it used with 15th
                                                              and 16th
                                                              > century Spanish women's clothing, and in 15th century Italian
                                                              pictures (mainly
                                                              > for older, non-upperclass women). I like it because a) it is really
                                                              easy and
                                                              > comfortable and b) it suit's almost any hair length, and hides short
                                                              hair
                                                              > well.
                                                            • Kristen Dahle
                                                              So with the hair twisted into the turban, I get a rather ... hair went to first. The weight is also lopsided, Just a thought-- Have you tried putting your hair
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                                                So with the hair twisted into the turban, I get a rather
                                                                > bulky outer rim of the turban, noticeably thicker on the side that the
                                                                hair went to first. The weight is also lopsided,

                                                                Just a thought--
                                                                Have you tried putting your hair into two braids, putting the center of the
                                                                cloth over the top of your head, wrapping each braid separately with either
                                                                end of the cloth, and then wrapping the two braids around your head from
                                                                opposite directions? I've never tried this with a hair wrap, but I've done
                                                                it with just my hair to get a more even around-the-head look under veiling.
                                                                I can do this with two braids that start more or less straight down my back
                                                                (the bulk ends up mostly at my neck then) or with braids that start over my
                                                                ears.

                                                                Pax,
                                                                Elisa
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