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Re: Resist Painting on Silk/Europe

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  • Richard Baldwin
    Hello, Speaking of painting on silk, I have a question: There s a painting of Sir Henry Lee, by Antonis Mor van Dashort, c. 1568 (available on Google--I can t
    Message 1 of 4 , May 20, 2004
      Hello,

      Speaking of painting on silk, I have a question:
      There's a painting of Sir Henry Lee, by Antonis Mor van Dashort, c. 1568
      (available on Google--I can't attach the image to this email). The
      gentleman is wearing white sleeves with a very complicated black pattern
      that does not strike me as blackwork (because it's extremely regular in
      repeat, but each separate part of the image is disconnected from the other
      sections, the spacing between these sections is highly regular in repeate,
      it doesn't at all use often-found blackwork motifs, and it's an outer sleeve
      which I've never seen blackworked on a man).

      I think it might be printed fabric. What do other people think?


      Best regards,

      Domenico
    • Lady_Lark_Azure
      ... I think it is definitely the fabric itself, not an embroidery. You can see the pattern peaking through the slits, which would be a strange place for
      Message 2 of 4 , May 20, 2004
        > I think it might be printed fabric. What do other people think?

        I think it is definitely the fabric itself, not an embroidery. You
        can see the pattern peaking through the slits, which would be a
        strange place for embroidery since it's mostly hidden. Besides,
        there's nothing in the painting to give the impression of depth that
        you would get with something applied to the surface of the fabric
        like embroidery.

        Does anyone know the significance of all of the rings? He has them
        on his finger, on the cord around his neck and on the cords tied
        around the elbow and wrist. I can't remember seeing anything like
        that before.

        Isabeau
      • joe rummel
        Regarding the Henry Lee portrait, I don t think it is painted fabric, it has to much texture on the original painting. I just returned from England and this
        Message 3 of 4 , May 20, 2004
          Regarding the Henry Lee portrait, I don't think it is
          painted fabric, it has to much texture on the original
          painting. I just returned from England and this is
          one of the paintings my wife and I spent a lot of time
          looking at in the National Portrait Gallery.

          My opinion on the rings is that they are for
          tournament victories. Henry Lee was Queen Elizabeth's
          champion and was a know tournament winner. The giving
          of rings as favors for tournament preformance is
          relatively common.

          Benedict Ashton, WSA - Ansteorra
          Joe Rummel - Texas

          --- Lady_Lark_Azure <jenniferanne21@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > > I think it might be printed fabric. What do other
          > people think?
          >
          > I think it is definitely the fabric itself, not an
          > embroidery. You
          > can see the pattern peaking through the slits, which
          > would be a
          > strange place for embroidery since it's mostly
          > hidden. Besides,
          > there's nothing in the painting to give the
          > impression of depth that
          > you would get with something applied to the surface
          > of the fabric
          > like embroidery.
          >
          > Does anyone know the significance of all of the
          > rings? He has them
          > on his finger, on the cord around his neck and on
          > the cords tied
          > around the elbow and wrist. I can't remember seeing
          > anything like
          > that before.
          >
          > Isabeau
          >
          >





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        • Chris Laning
          ... Nonetheless, the needleworkers and Elizabethan costumers I know all seem to be pretty sure it s embroidery. There are two possibilities I can think of. One
          Message 4 of 4 , May 21, 2004
            At 3:17 PM +0000 5/20/04, Domenico wrote:
            >Speaking of painting on silk, I have a question:
            >There's a painting of Sir Henry Lee, by Antonis Mor van Dashort, c. 1568
            >(available on Google--I can't attach the image to this email). The
            >gentleman is wearing white sleeves with a very complicated black pattern
            >that does not strike me as blackwork (because it's extremely regular in
            >repeat, but each separate part of the image is disconnected from the other
            >sections, the spacing between these sections is highly regular in repeate,
            >it doesn't at all use often-found blackwork motifs, and it's an outer sleeve
            >which I've never seen blackworked on a man).

            Nonetheless, the needleworkers and Elizabethan costumers I know all
            seem to be pretty sure it's embroidery.

            There are two possibilities I can think of. One is that this is his
            shirt, and he is being painted (untypically) in his shirtsleeves for
            some reason; perhaps because he is being shown specifically as
            Elizabeth's champion, and tournaments where the knights take on
            "alternate personas" are places where you'd expect to find somewhat
            unusual clothing on the actors, often described as "masque clothing."
            The conventions of masque clothing allow people to appear in public
            in fewer layers of clothing than usual, including the showing of
            garments (like shirts) that would ordinarily be considered
            "underwear."

            The other, more conventional, possibility is that these are simply
            the sleeves of a white doublet, which he is wearing underneath a
            black sleeveless jerkin.

            In either case, we know from surviving garments that even a layer
            that doesn't really show much on the outside can still be heavily
            decorated all over -- shirts especially; we have several surviving
            examples whose full glories were probably only visible in the
            bedchamber :) So it's not too surprising to glimpse it peeking
            through the slits.

            It's true that we don't have a lot of pictures of white doublet
            sleeves decorated with blackwork for men, as we do of white formal
            sleeves with blackwork for women. However there are certainly many
            pictures of men wearing _shirts_ that are obviously decorated with
            blackwork, such as Thomas Howard, the Duke of Norfolk (portrait by
            Hans Eworth), William Brooke, Lord Cobham (by an English School
            painter), and Thomas, 2nd Baron Vaux (by Holbein), and of course the
            very peculiar portrait of Sir Henry's brother Thomas Lee wearing his
            shirt and very little else (by Marcus Gheeraerts, around 1594).

            There are quite a few different styles of embroidery that are lumped
            together as "blackwork," and not all of them are worked in "steps" or
            by the counted-thread method. There are several styles that are
            worked from flowing designs marked on the fabric, in backstitch, stem
            stitch, or other stitches. For instance, the familiar style of
            blackwork with large flowers with heavy dark outlines, with parts
            filled in by various geometric "filling stitches", is an example --
            and many of the filling patterns seem to have been worked "by eye"
            and not by exact thread count. There are also patterns that outlined
            in stem or chain stitch and are "shaded" by random "speckling" short
            stitches.

            Blackwork is also _not_ always reversible, so patterns with detached
            parts do appear relatively commonly -- if you look at the backs of
            period examples, many were worked entirely or partly in backstitch,
            rather than the reversible double-running stitch. Modern
            needleworkers seem to be most fascinated by the reversible patterns
            because they're an intellectual challenge, so you see those reprinted
            in modern pattern books more often, but the other types are no less
            typical in the surviving period pieces.
            --
            _________________________________________________________
            O (Lady) Christian de Holacombe
            | Chris Laning <claning@...>
            + Shire of Windy Meads - Davis, California
            _________________________________________________________
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