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Stupid questions

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  • wodeford
    About the psaltery during a demo at a county fair, him: Is that a hammer dulcimer? Me: Wouldn t I be playing it with hammers if it was? At a cub scout demo
    Message 1 of 20 , May 7, 2004
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      About the psaltery during a demo at a county fair, him: "Is that a
      hammer dulcimer?" Me: "Wouldn't I be playing it with hammers if it
      was?"

      At a cub scout demo where I was dressed in generic medieval boy
      clothes and talking about archery, him, evidently interpreting it as
      Peter Pan, "Can you fly?" Me: "No, my lord, can you?"

      At Estrella War as I was walking around playing hurdy gurdy, him:
      "Is that a radio?" Me: "What's a radio?"

      Jehanne de no, I will not play "We Will Rock You" on this thing
    • Alanfrize@aol.com
      In a message dated 07/05/2004 17:14:45 GMT Standard Time, wodeford@yahoo.com ... I remember once having to explain to someone (I was in full kit at the time)
      Message 2 of 20 , May 7, 2004
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        In a message dated 07/05/2004 17:14:45 GMT Standard Time, wodeford@...
        writes:

        > Jehanne de no, I will not play "We Will Rock You" on this thing
        >

        I remember once having to explain to someone (I was in full kit at the time)
        that no, I'm not a membr of a heavy metal band....

        Alan


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • aheilvei
        ... Bogdan requests that you also not play Pachelbel on that thing either. *giggle* Despina
        Message 3 of 20 , May 7, 2004
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          > Jehanne de no, I will not play "We Will Rock You" on this thing

          Bogdan requests that you also not play Pachelbel on that thing
          either.

          *giggle*

          Despina
        • Lyle H. Gray
          ... Hey, I _like_ the _Canon in D_. Besides, people play it on just about everything else... Lyle -- Lyle H. Gray gray@cs.umass.edu -- text only, please
          Message 4 of 20 , May 7, 2004
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            On Fri, 7 May 2004, aheilvei wrote:

            >
            > > Jehanne de no, I will not play "We Will Rock You" on this thing
            >
            > Bogdan requests that you also not play Pachelbel on that
            > thing either.
            >
            > *giggle*

            Hey, I _like_ the _Canon in D_.

            Besides, people play it on just about everything else...

            Lyle

            --
            Lyle H. Gray
            gray@... -- text only, please
            http://members.verizon.net/~vze3wwx7
            --
            Shared knowledge is preserved knowledge.
          • aheilvei
            ... In the realm of everything else Bogdan had to listen to it played by a violin and accordian duo - and they were not in tune (period) much less in tune
            Message 5 of 20 , May 7, 2004
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              > Hey, I _like_ the _Canon in D_.
              >
              > Besides, people play it on just about everything else...
              >


              In the realm of 'everything else' Bogdan had to listen to it played
              by a violin and accordian duo - and they were not in tune (period)
              much less in tune with each other. Scarred him for life, I fear.
              His brother's wedding (at which this fiasco happend) is the only
              wedding video I know of where anyone who wishes to view it watches
              it with the sound completely off, every time.

              Besides, it's post-period.

              Despina
            • Alanfrize@aol.com
              In a message dated 07/05/2004 18:35:15 GMT Standard Time, gray@cs.umass.edu ... How about Ace of Spades by Motorhead? Alan [Non-text portions of this message
              Message 6 of 20 , May 7, 2004
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                In a message dated 07/05/2004 18:35:15 GMT Standard Time, gray@...
                writes:

                > Hey, I _like_ the _Canon in D_.
                >
                > Besides, people play it on just about everything else...
                >
                > Lyle
                >

                How about 'Ace of Spades' by Motorhead?

                Alan


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • wodeford
                ... Oh, lordy, I think the Cannon in D is one of the most monotonous pieces ever written. Jehanne
                Message 7 of 20 , May 7, 2004
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > > Jehanne de no, I will not play "We Will Rock You" on this thing
                  >
                  > Bogdan requests that you also not play Pachelbel on that thing
                  > either.

                  Oh, lordy, I think the Cannon in D is one of the most monotonous
                  pieces ever written.

                  Jehanne
                • Alanfrize@aol.com
                  In a message dated 07/05/2004 19:26:01 GMT Standard Time, wodeford@yahoo.com ... You ve obviously never stood through the Argentine National Anthem. All 20
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 7, 2004
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                    In a message dated 07/05/2004 19:26:01 GMT Standard Time, wodeford@...
                    writes:

                    > Oh, lordy, I think the Cannon in D is one of the most monotonous
                    > pieces ever written.
                    >
                    > Jehanne
                    >

                    You've obviously never stood through the Argentine National Anthem. All 20
                    minutes of it.

                    Alan


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • wodeford
                    ... wodeford@y... ... Anthem. All 20 ... No, can t say I have. My sympathies. Jehanne
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 7, 2004
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                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Alanfrize@a... wrote:
                      > In a message dated 07/05/2004 19:26:01 GMT Standard Time,
                      wodeford@y...
                      > writes:
                      > You've obviously never stood through the Argentine National
                      Anthem. All 20
                      > minutes of it.

                      No, can't say I have. My sympathies.

                      Jehanne
                    • Cynthia J Ley
                      ... Ouch. ... It is post--it s a Baroque piece. Kinda fascinating too, when you listen closely to it--the whole thing functions on top of a ground (a part on
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 7, 2004
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                        > In the realm of 'everything else' Bogdan had to listen to it played
                        > by a violin and accordian duo - and they were not in tune (period)
                        > much less in tune with each other.

                        Ouch.

                        >Scarred him for life, I fear.
                        > His brother's wedding (at which this fiasco happend) is the only
                        > wedding video I know of where anyone who wishes to view it watches
                        > it with the sound completely off, every time.
                        >
                        > Besides, it's post-period.
                        >
                        > Despina

                        It is post--it's a Baroque piece. Kinda fascinating too, when you listen
                        closely to it--the whole thing functions on top of a ground (a part on
                        the bottom that never changes, but repeats over and over). Sort of like
                        'Sumer is i-cumen in' functions on top of a pes (i.e. 'foot,' but it's
                        really a ground too, only it's a ground that works like a canon).

                        Arlys,
                        music psychobabbler

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                      • r0hanian
                        Hello! And sorry to disturb you....but I have couple of questions regarding authentic fabrics (esp. in Asia/India area). I have two Sarees (both silk) but I am
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 3, 2007
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                          Hello!

                          And sorry to disturb you....but I have couple of questions regarding
                          authentic fabrics (esp. in Asia/India area). I have two Sarees (both
                          silk) but I am a bit unsure about the colours. First saree is purple
                          silkchiffon http://pics.livejournal.com/ignata/pic/0004e1xf/
                          with lighter pallu http://pics.livejournal.com/ignata/pic/0004fr5y/
                          It's transparent and therefore I am not totally sure should I use it
                          at all.
                          Second saree is pink(ish) silk with golden border <A
                          href="http://pics.livejournal.com/ignata/pic/0004g8yt/ I am planning
                          to make Arabian/Turkish dress from them but I wan't to make sure first
                          are they authentic or not.

                          Second problem is to decide that kind of dress to make if the silks
                          are ok to SCA-use :D

                          Sorry about my stupid questions, but if there is anyone who is able to
                          help me...

                          (X-posted...)

                          ~Amal binti Hala Al-Chania
                        • Amy Heilveil
                          Lovely fabric. What time frame are you looking to date the colors? I don t think you ll have a problem with it. Smiles, Despina de la ask questions, it gets
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 3, 2007
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                            Lovely fabric. What time frame are you looking to date the colors? I don't
                            think you'll have a problem with it.

                            Smiles,
                            Despina de la ask questions, it gets us talking


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • r0hanian
                            Well, early period would be great (my character is 9th century arabian/turk living in Crete) but basically anything goes. I have only 2 costumes at the moment
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 4, 2007
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                              Well, early period would be great (my character is 9th century
                              arabian/turk living in Crete) but basically anything goes. I have only
                              2 costumes at the moment because I broke my silk bysantinian costume
                              and I have not yet figured out how to fix it... and I really need new
                              clothes ;)

                              ~Amal

                              "Amy Heilveil" <amyheilveil@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Lovely fabric. What time frame are you looking to date the colors?
                              I don't
                              > think you'll have a problem with it.
                            • Beth Lokey
                              You might check with the SCA_India group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_India/ You don t have to be a member to read their messages and look at their
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 5, 2007
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                                You might check with the SCA_India group.



                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_India/





                                You don't have to be a member to read their messages and look at their
                                links.

                                Mina





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Amy Heilveil
                                Depending on the period, they re all correct. The pink is very period for most of the SCA time frame, as is the purple. The blue a little less so, but it
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 5, 2007
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                                  Depending on the period, they're all correct. The pink is very period for
                                  most of the SCA time frame, as is the purple. The blue a little less so, but
                                  it still works for most time frames.

                                  Smiles,
                                  Despina de la loves the purple you've got


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Lilinah
                                  My apologies for this late response, but Yahoo has been bouncing my mail a lot in the last week and a half... ... First, questions are not stupid. If we don t
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 8, 2007
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                                    My apologies for this late response, but Yahoo has been bouncing my
                                    mail a lot in the last week and a half...

                                    Amal binti Hala Al-Chania wrote:
                                    >Sorry about my stupid questions, but if there is anyone who is able to
                                    >help me...

                                    First, questions are not stupid. If we don't know or understand
                                    something and we don't ask, we don't learn or we misunderstand.
                                    Asking questions and getting answers lifts the veil of ignorance. It
                                    is perhaps more stupid not to ask and remain ignorant or confused.

                                    >I am planning to make Arabian/Turkish dress from them but I want to
                                    >make sure first are they authentic or not.

                                    First, the vestimentary systems of Arab cultures are quite different
                                    from those of Turkish/Central Asian cultures.
                                    -- Arab systems feature garments that either slip on over the head =
                                    tunics (borrowed from the Greeks and Romans who ruled the area for
                                    many centuries) or wrapped garments composed of flat rectangles of
                                    various dimensions (indigenous).
                                    -- Turkish/Central Asian systems feature garments that open in the
                                    front ("coats"), although under tunics often slip on over the head
                                    and have long central slits in the front or, sometimes for men,
                                    off-center slits.
                                    -- Both systems have pants with a draw-string waist, worn by both men
                                    and women, but these pants differ. The sirwal (pl. sarawil) of the
                                    Arab system tends to have legs that are the same width from hip to
                                    ankle. The shalvar (various spellings) have legs that are quite wide
                                    at the hip and thigh, and narrow at the ankle.
                                    -- There are also differences in colors preferred or avoided, and
                                    motifs and the scale of motifs used in textiles.

                                    Second, i would ask "which Turkish?" There is a multitude of Turkish
                                    cultures that are important within the time span of the SCA, the
                                    Seljuks being the most significant; but there are also Uighur,
                                    Buyyid, Turkoman, etc.

                                    So it's important to differentiate, first, between cultures based on
                                    Central Asian clothing systems and those based on Arab systems, and,
                                    second, among the different Turkic cultures.

                                    Also, which culture and time period you choose will determine what
                                    fabric patterns and to some extent what colors are appropriate, not
                                    to mention the style of the garments.

                                    >I have couple of questions regarding
                                    >authentic fabrics (esp. in Asia/India area). I have two Sarees (both
                                    >silk) but I am a bit unsure about the colours. First saree is purple
                                    >silkchiffon
                                    >http://pics.livejournal.com/ignata/pic/0004e1xf/
                                    >with lighter pallu
                                    >http://pics.livejournal.com/ignata/pic/0004fr5y/
                                    >It's transparent and therefore I am not totally sure should I use it
                                    >at all.

                                    First, sheerness... From what i can tell, sheer fabrics were not much
                                    used in outer garments. Linen or cotton under garments were often
                                    *quite sheer*, based on both surviving garments and paintings from
                                    al-Andalus and the Persian and Ottoman Empires. Outer garments,
                                    however, were not sheer, other than head veils for women in some
                                    Islamic cultures.

                                    Outer garments were meant to present both a modest image and to show
                                    one's status. So unless one was a very devout and conservative
                                    Muslim, then one would have outer garments of the best fabric they
                                    could afford. Clearly that is your intent with intense colors and
                                    metallic threads, so you're on the right track.

                                    Next, the pattern in the fabric. The pattern looks good for Persian,
                                    if Persian paintings can be trusted to be close to reality (since
                                    what's shown in paintings is often different from designs on
                                    surviving fabrics). 15th and 16th C. Persian paintings often show
                                    both men and women wearing garments of a solid color with small gold
                                    motifs. Ottoman (if that is what you mean by Turkish) fabrics nearly
                                    always had VERY LARGE motifs (for example, a pattern might repeat
                                    only 1-1/2 times in a man's kaftan). So the fine motifs of this
                                    fabric are unsuitable for Ottoman. I am not sure about the Seljuks,
                                    as we have less material culture surviving from them - plenty of art,
                                    but fewer textiles.

                                    Third, the color is not particularly suitable for Arab or Ottoman
                                    garments (and i suspect not for Seljuk either). Purple was identified
                                    with the Christian Byzantines and therefore not used much in most
                                    Islamic cultures. The Persians often did things rather differently
                                    from the more Arabic cultures. However, i've never seen any actual
                                    purple Persian fabric. Also, the particular hue of purple (at least
                                    as it looks on my monitor) is very modern and not like what i've seen
                                    within SCA period.

                                    In Roman and early Islamic Egypt sometimes the tapestry woven clavi
                                    and segmentae on Roman style tunics were worked with "purple" wool.
                                    The color is now nearly black, but chemical analysis shows that often
                                    this wool was madder overdyed with indigo, which makes a dark
                                    brownish purple.

                                    The purple of clavi on important Roman men's togas and of Byzantine
                                    royal family garments was usually from murex (a sea snail, and which
                                    can give a range of colors from dark blue to purple to dark red). But
                                    to the best of my knowledge this dye was not used in the Islamic
                                    world.

                                    It is a beautiful fabric, but based on what i know, not really
                                    suitable for Near Eastern clothing, if you want authenticity. It
                                    might work for Indian - i know less about the Mughal/Moghul cultures
                                    than i do about cultures in the Middle and Near East.

                                    Re the blue sari:
                                    The color is a little closer to a "period" color. I can't tell what
                                    the scale of the motifs is, but they might be too small for Ottoman,
                                    so this might work for a garment from the Arab vestimentary system.

                                    Or are the blue and purple pictures from the same sari?
                                    In going back and re-reading your post, i think perhaps i am
                                    misunderstanding and these two pictures are parts of one cloth. If
                                    so, the colors appear quite different on my monitor, so i am not
                                    certain of what color the cloth is. However, if both are part of the
                                    same sari, it is still likely that the color is the modern so-called
                                    "purple", which is a blue violet and not "SCA-period", since dyes of
                                    this color only developed in the 19th century with the advent of
                                    synthetic dyes.

                                    Anyway, if you want a "purple" fabric, the more "period" color is
                                    that produced by some Indian lac insects. They make a color close to
                                    what in paint is called "purple lake", a color more like what we
                                    might call maroon or burgundy. And from what i can tell, this color
                                    is closer to what is meant by "purple" in period writing, and
                                    apparently still by the French today. What we call "purple" here in
                                    the US is a bluer color, called "violet" by the French, and available
                                    with the advent of purely synthetic dyes in the mid to late 19th
                                    century.

                                    >Second saree is pink(ish) silk with golden border
                                    >http://pics.livejournal.com/ignata/pic/0004g8yt/

                                    To me, the fuchsia looks a bit strong and synthetic for SCA clothing.
                                    I've seen muted rose colored silk in an early 17th century Ottoman
                                    garment (remember "dusty rose" from a few decades ago?), but it was
                                    not an intense color as this sari appears to be.

                                    Also, from what i can tell of my study of fabrics and garments of
                                    both the Near and Middle East, fully saturated colors were generally
                                    preferred, especially for reds. Yes, one can make a sort of "hot
                                    pink" from kermes, but from what i've seen of textiles of the
                                    SCA-period Islamic world, this was not a sought after color. It takes
                                    a LOT of kermes to give a strong red, so a saturated kermes/lac
                                    insect red was a way of showing off one's wealth, rather than a
                                    not-fully saturated fuchsia/"hot pink"/magenta/etc. Kermes was
                                    generally reserved for silk, although it will dye wool. Note that i'm
                                    speaking here of the Near and Middle East.

                                    For those who couldn't afford the rich cool-red of kermes or other
                                    lac insect dye there was madder root, which makes a warm-red and was
                                    rather commonly used. Madder can give a range of reds, from a rich
                                    warm red, a more orangey "tomato soup" red, a deep orange, red-brown,
                                    to a dark warm brown. More people could afford madder dyed fabric.
                                    Madder was used to dye wool, linen, and cotton, and less often for
                                    silk. The complex process later known to Europeans as "turkey red",
                                    was developed to dye linen and cotton.

                                    So if you want a reddish fabric, then a fully saturated red would be
                                    authentic, either a cool kermes (cochineal) red or a warm madder red,
                                    but this fuchsia doesn't look like a "period" color to me.

                                    As for other colors, indigo was generally used fully saturated, but
                                    less saturated indigo blues were also used. Besides being used on
                                    wool and silk, indigo was used to dye linen and cotton. Often a
                                    single linen or cotton fabric would have stripes - sometimes in both
                                    the warp and the weft - of two or three shades of indigo blue.

                                    Less saturated colors of all sorts show up as accent colors in
                                    complex brocades, especially in 16th century Persian and Ottoman
                                    Empires.

                                    To me the issue is less whether one can achieve certain colors with
                                    certain dyes, and more a question of whether people in a particular
                                    culture, in a particular time and place, actually wanted those less
                                    saturated colors.

                                    >Second problem is to decide that kind of dress to make if the silks
                                    >are ok to SCA-use :D

                                    In my opinion, if you want authenticity, the first thing to do is
                                    study the specific styles of garment fabrics - you don't need to know
                                    how to make them, unless you really want to :-) - but it helps to
                                    know what the fabrics of particular cultures and times period looked
                                    like BEFORE you go fabric shopping. Then it is much easier to buy
                                    suitable colors and patterns.

                                    We modern people have an amazing array of colors available to us
                                    today, both natural and synthetic. While modern natural dyers mix
                                    dyes from 5 or 6 continents all sorts of ways to create a wide range
                                    of colors, in the Near and Middle East of the SCA period, a much more
                                    limited range of colors was used. Overdyeing was used to produce some
                                    colors, such as a more colorfast green, but these were not the
                                    preferred dyes. For example, the Geniza documents from Fatimid Egypt
                                    indicate that green fabric (which was yellow, often weld, overdyed
                                    with indigo) was less expensive than fabric dyed with a single dye.

                                    I have a few examples of Persian fabrics on my web site:
                                    http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/persianfabrics.html
                                    and slightly more examples of Ottoman fabrics:
                                    http://earthlink/~al-qurtubiyya/RealOttoFabric.html

                                    A good general reference for textiles in the Islamic world is:
                                    Patricia L. Baker.
                                    Islamic Textiles.
                                    London: British Museum Press, 1995.
                                    ISBN 0714125229

                                    It is out of print and not cheap. I recommend getting it via ILL
                                    (Inter-Library Loan). It is the best survey of the topic and had many
                                    lovely full color photos, as well as some info on dyes and textile
                                    techniques. If the Islamic world is your area of focus, and
                                    authenticity is your goal, it's worth having in your library.

                                    To sum up, neither the colors, patterns, or sheerness of these saris
                                    is very suitable for SCA-period garments in the Islamic world.

                                    These saris may be suitable for Mughal/Moghal clothing, but i know
                                    less about that cultural area. There is an SCA list devoted to
                                    SCA-perid India where you could ask:
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_India

                                    --
                                    Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                                    the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                  • Lilinah
                                    BTW, you re looking into the period of the Abbasid dynasty. Black is definitely NOT suitable for garments in this period, unless you are part of the ruling
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 8, 2007
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                                      BTW, you're looking into the period of the 'Abbasid dynasty. Black is
                                      definitely NOT suitable for garments in this period, unless you are
                                      part of the ruling family, since black was "their" color and the
                                      color of their flag.

                                      --
                                      Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                                      the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                    • Kathryn
                                      Urtatim wrote: I have a few examples of Persian fabrics on my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/persianfa
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 8, 2007
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                                        Urtatim wrote:
                                        "I have a few examples of Persian fabrics on my web site:
                                        http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/persianfa
                                        brics.html
                                        and slightly more examples of Ottoman fabrics:
                                        http://earthlink/~al-qurtubiyya/RealOttoFabric.html"

                                        These links don't seem to work for me. Is there a fix?
                                        Thanks, Kathryn


                                        **************************************************************************
                                      • Lilinah
                                        ... My apologies. This one is case specific: http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/PersianFabrics.html And on this one i left out
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 8, 2007
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                                          >Urtatim wrote:
                                          >> I have a few examples of Persian fabrics on my web site:
                                          > >
                                          >http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/persianfabrics.html
                                          >> and slightly more examples of Ottoman fabrics:
                                          > > http://earthlink/~al-qurtubiyya/RealOttoFabric.html
                                          >
                                          >These links don't seem to work for me. Is there a fix?
                                          >Thanks, Kathryn

                                          My apologies.

                                          This one is case specific:
                                          http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/PersianFabrics.html

                                          And on this one i left out several key parts of the address:
                                          http://home.earthlink.net/~al-qurtubiyya/Fabric/RealOttoFabric.html

                                          Sorry about that. And thanks for catching it.

                                          --
                                          Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                                          the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                        • Beth and Bob Matney
                                          ... Urtatim, I ve acquired a pretty good reference collection on textiles most of the Islamic cultures, but I m a bit weak on Persian. What references do you
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Mar 8, 2007
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                                            At 01:59 PM 3/8/2007, Urtatim wrote:
                                            >This one is case specific:
                                            >http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/PersianFabrics.html

                                            Urtatim,

                                            I've acquired a pretty good reference collection on textiles most of the
                                            Islamic cultures, but I'm a bit weak on Persian. What references do you
                                            suggest?

                                            Most of my textile/costume reference books (though I have a long way to go
                                            for other topics) are now cataloged online at www.librarything.com Search
                                            for user "Castlegrounds".

                                            Beth
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