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  • rchbldwn
    Hello, I sent the following to the German Renn Costume list, and I thought maybe those on this list would have some pieces of the answer to this fairly broad
    Message 1 of 9 , May 5 8:42 PM
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      Hello,

      I sent the following to the German Renn Costume list, and I thought
      maybe those on this list would have some pieces of the answer to this
      fairly broad question:

      I'm thinking of redirecting my persona to a period from 1530-70, to
      the Duchy of Savoie or Savoy. This area is in between Italy, France,
      the Swiss Confederacy and some amount of the Holy Roman Empire. I'm
      interested in this area because it is 1) one of the few countries in
      Western Europe of that time which no longer exists, and 2) I assume
      there must have been a pile of cultural influences from the various
      surrounding nations, all in one small space.

      So I'm asking what, if anything, those on this list know of Savoy.
      I'm interested particularly in how they dressed, and whether they
      tended towards a more French, Italian or Germanic style of clothing.

      I know that I can 'get away with' doing pretty much whatever I'd want
      to--I could make a persona from Savoy that dressed in Italian styles,
      became a landsknect or fought for the Swiss Confederacy and thereby
      dressed in German fashions at times, etc. . . but I'd like to try to
      re-enact a persona that spent most of his life in only one area, and
      that's why I'd like to see if this particular place had the sort of
      variety to it that I hope it did.

      I'd also, however, like to know exactly what they didn't take from
      other cultures, if there are things they must obviously did not
      accept into their culture (via sumptuary laws, or what have you).

      Also: Can anyone confirm a rumour that I've been told, that
      houppelandes were worn over doublets in Italy, even in the early or
      middle 16th century? I've seen some images that suggest this, but
      none that proves it in my mind.


      Thank you very much,

      Domenico
    • Ariane H
      ... Well, I m not a clothing expert, but I also do 16th c. Italy, and here s what I gather: by the mid-to-late 1500 s, basic clothing styles seem to be
      Message 2 of 9 , May 6 7:42 AM
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        baldwin_r@... wrote:

        >Hello,
        >
        >I'm thinking of redirecting my persona to a period from 1530-70, to
        >the Duchy of Savoie or Savoy. <snip>
        >I'm interested particularly in how they dressed, and whether they
        >tended towards a more French, Italian or Germanic style of clothing.
        >

        Well, I'm not a clothing expert, but I also "do" 16th c. Italy, and
        here's what I gather: by the mid-to-late 1500's, basic clothing styles
        seem to be pretty much the same throughout Western Europe. I realize
        I'm making a hugely broad generalization, which can sometimes be
        dangerously deceptive, but I think in this case it's a safe assertion.
        If you look at portraiture, woodcuts, tailors' manuals, and extant
        garments from France, Italy, England, Spain, etc., I think you'll find
        that while there are variations in style attributed to different regions
        (Spanish-style sleeves, or French-style bodices, or Venetian
        hairstyles), they tend to be pretty cosmetic, and the elements of
        clothing cut and construction don't seem to vary much from one country
        to another. I've found that the easiest way to tackle clothing for my
        persona has been to find "Elizabethan" patterns to construct the
        clothing, but then look at sources from Florence and Tuscany to get
        ideas for the local style.

        I'm not sure if this entirely answers your question, though - as far as
        the issue of which cultural group held the most sway in Savoie, I think
        mostly French and Italian - kinda like its neighboring Piedmont, if that
        helps. According to Encyclopedia Britannica, the German/HRE influence
        came in during the 11th century, but had pretty much faded out by the
        early 1500's:
        "In the early modern period, Savoy became an object of French expansion
        because of its strategic position commanding the roads into Italy.
        Although Savoy was occupied a number of times by French troops in the
        16th and 17th centuries, the dukes of Savoy were able to recover it. At
        the same time, however, Savoy, which was predominately French in
        language, lost its hegemony among the Savoyard lands as the dukes came
        to favour their Italian territories, a shift reflected in the transfer
        of the capital from Chambéry to Turin in Piedmont (1563)." So, if the
        language was predominantly French, I would assume that was the major
        cultural influence, too. (As a side-note to the earlier discussion of
        persona histories: one of the reasons my persona speaks French so well
        is because she had a Savoiarde nurse. :)

        >Also: Can anyone confirm a rumour that I've been told, that
        >houppelandes were worn over doublets in Italy, even in the early or
        >middle 16th century? I've seen some images that suggest this, but
        >none that proves it in my mind.
        >

        I've never heard of that before....the only thing I can think of that
        might suggest the look of a houppelande are the short robes that are
        sometimes worn over a doublet and trunkhose. The Milanese Tailor's
        Handbook (1570's) has some images of that:
        http://costume.dm.net/Tailors/pages/f68R.html
        http://costume.dm.net/Tailors/pages/f78R.html
        and more mens' clothes on this page http://costume.dm.net/Tailors/mens.html
        Is that the sort of look you were wondering about? They don't strike me
        as houppelandes so much as simple robes, a short version of the women's
        ropa/loose gown that was current during the same period.

        I hope some of that is helpful...

        ciao,
        Vittoria

        P.S. While I'm posting here anyway, I might as well mention some
        wonderful news I just had. I recently found out that my very dear
        friend Moshe (whom some of you will remember as the founder of this
        list) will be moving to my neighborhood of the East for grad school next
        year. Hooray! :-)

        --
        It is Aeneas' frown that ends my days.
        If he forsake me not, I never die;
        For in his looks I see eternity,
        And he'll make me immortal with a kiss.

        -- Christopher Marlowe, _Dido Queen of Carthage_
      • wodeford
        ... next ... Rats. That means we re LOSING him. ;-
        Message 3 of 9 , May 6 7:54 AM
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ariane H <phoenissa@n...> wrote:
          > P.S. While I'm posting here anyway, I might as well mention some
          > wonderful news I just had. I recently found out that my very dear
          > friend Moshe (whom some of you will remember as the founder of this
          > list) will be moving to my neighborhood of the East for grad school
          next
          > year. Hooray! :-)

          Rats. That means we're LOSING him. ;-<

          Jehanne
        • Sarah Michele Ford
          ... Whoohoo! Matatias will be happy to hear of another person studying Judaism in the area. Where will he be exactly? Alianor -- Sarah Michele Ford
          Message 4 of 9 , May 6 8:12 AM
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            Ariane H wrote:

            > P.S. While I'm posting here anyway, I might as well mention some
            > wonderful news I just had. I recently found out that my very dear
            > friend Moshe (whom some of you will remember as the founder of this
            > list) will be moving to my neighborhood of the East for grad school next
            > year. Hooray! :-)

            Whoohoo! Matatias will be happy to hear of another person studying
            Judaism in the area. Where will he be exactly?

            Alianor

            --
            Sarah Michele Ford
            /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
            Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
            reality is but an exception.
            --Jean Baudrillard
            \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
          • aheilvei
            Moshe (whom some of you will remember as the founder of this list) will be moving to my neighborhood of the East for grad school next ... At least you *had*
            Message 5 of 9 , May 6 8:13 AM
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              Moshe (whom some of you will remember as the founder of this list)
              will be moving to my neighborhood of the East for grad school next
              > > year. Hooray! :-)
              >
              > Rats. That means we're LOSING him. ;-<
              >


              At least you *had* him! People keep jumping from one coast to the
              other around here... the Middle Kingdom's a perfectly wonderful
              place to be - honest!

              Smiles,
              Despina
            • Ariane H
              ... Well, that s not *entirely* true...Mosh and I had two classmates move to Cynnabar same time I moved here, and as far as I know they ve both been been more
              Message 6 of 9 , May 6 11:22 AM
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                Despina wrote:

                >At least you *had* him! People keep jumping from one coast to the
                >other around here... the Middle Kingdom's a perfectly wonderful
                >place to be - honest!


                Well, that's not *entirely* true...Mosh and I had two classmates move to
                Cynnabar same time I moved here, and as far as I know they've both been
                been more active in local SCA than I've managed to be.


                Alianor wrote:

                >Whoohoo! Matatias will be happy to hear of another person studying
                >Judaism in the area. Where will he be exactly?
                >
                >

                He'll be in Providence, RI --err, I mean, the Barony of the Bridge --
                probably starting in August. How far are we from you guys?


                Vittoria
                (who has been living here for 9 months and STILL doesn't know New
                England geography...)

                --
                It is Aeneas' frown that ends my days.
                If he forsake me not, I never die;
                For in his looks I see eternity,
                And he'll make me immortal with a kiss.

                -- Christopher Marlowe, _Dido Queen of Carthage_
              • Alanfrize@aol.com
                In a message dated 06/05/2004 19:55:33 GMT Standard Time, ... Vittoria, don t feel so bad - I was a right boffin at geography when we had to colour in the
                Message 7 of 9 , May 6 12:02 PM
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                  In a message dated 06/05/2004 19:55:33 GMT Standard Time,
                  phoenissa@... writes:

                  > Vittoria
                  > (who has been living here for 9 months and STILL doesn't know New
                  > England geography...)
                  >

                  Vittoria, don't feel so bad - I was a right boffin at geography when we had
                  to colour in the world. I got somewhat lost when we moved onto tectonic plates
                  and rainfall...

                  Alan - the man who was refused by the RAF to be a Navigator. Can't think
                  why......


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • MMM
                  Right boffin I can infer the general meaning, but can you share a more specific definition of that? I like it! Madinia, tickled ... we had ... tectonic
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 6 12:14 PM
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                    "Right boffin" I can infer the general meaning, but can you share a
                    more specific definition of that? I like it!

                    Madinia, tickled
                    >
                    > Vittoria, don't feel so bad - I was a right boffin at geography when
                    we had
                    > to colour in the world. I got somewhat lost when we moved onto
                    tectonic plates
                    > and rainfall...
                    >
                    > Alan - the man who was refused by the RAF to be a Navigator. Can't
                    think
                    > why......
                  • Alanfrize@aol.com
                    In a message dated 06/05/2004 21:28:10 GMT Standard Time, ... Boffins - it s the name that was used by members of Royal Air Force during world War Two to refer
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 6 4:50 PM
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                      In a message dated 06/05/2004 21:28:10 GMT Standard Time,
                      marshamclean@... writes:

                      > "Right boffin" I can infer the general meaning, but can you share a
                      > more specific definition of that? I like it!
                      >
                      > Madinia, tickled
                      >

                      Boffins - it's the name that was used by members of Royal Air Force during
                      world War Two to refer to the Scientists (such as Barnes Wallis, inventor of the
                      Bouncing Bomb and Lancaster Bomber) who worked for the RAF. The term now is
                      used loosely to describe anyone quite clever.

                      Alan


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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