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Taking Hits

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  • Alanfrize@aol.com
    Odd question this but.... I was at a Multi-period re-enactment event at the weekend - at this kind of event, each group does it s own thing. We were at St
    Message 1 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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      Odd question this but....

      I was at a Multi-period re-enactment event at the weekend - at this kind of
      event, each group does it's own thing. We were at St Andrew's Castle, so my
      group was doing the Siege (I was up and down the mine all day, which may explain
      why my back and legs are now killing me!). Anyway, there was a couple of
      other groups there - I won't name, as none of them are on this list, and they
      therefore can't reply, however, there ws the usual combat along the lines of "all
      interested welcome", so I took spear and sword and went in to fight.

      Now one of these groups was really good, and took their hits. The other
      didn't. Both my group and the first mentioned group were getting really annoyed -
      not only didn't they take their hits when it was so blatantly obvious that
      they had been hit (example: I caught one guy a beauty on the chest with my
      spear causing him to go backwards but he wouldn't fall down) they would also start
      wrestling to the floor anyone who didn't take their hits.

      So my question is this: What's the best thing to do? I was really annoyed
      at the end. I'm a fighter - I even train others, but how can I enjoy an event
      when there's this kind of thing going on, or more importantly, what can be
      done? I've heard of other groups having this problem with this same society.

      Alan


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • MMM
      I saw this dealt with beautifully once. The person who wouldn t take the blows (I ll call him Rhino ) and the one whose blows were apparently too light (I ll
      Message 2 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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        I saw this dealt with beautifully once. The person who wouldn't take
        the blows (I'll call him "Rhino") and the one whose blows were
        apparently too light (I'll call him "Grace") were in an SCA tourney.
        Grace's blows (as I know myself all too well) are entirely strong enough
        as well as accurate and fast. Rhino is a good fighter but a little too
        focused on the goal. Finally, after denting Rhino's helm and giving him
        many goos blows, Grace stepped back and yielded the fielded, announcing
        that his shots were clearly not strong enough, despite the dents and
        several steps backward. Rhino still won and got his prize, but found it
        strangely empty. I applaud this resolution to this common puzzle. The
        rhino "wins", but no one is hurt and no tempers are lost.

        Madinia

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Alanfrize@... [mailto:Alanfrize@...]
        > Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 2:42 PM
        > To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Taking Hits
        >
        > Odd question this but....
        >
        > I was at a Multi-period re-enactment event at the weekend - at this
        kind of
        > event, each group does it's own thing. We were at St Andrew's Castle,
        so my
        > group was doing the Siege (I was up and down the mine all day, which
        may explain
        > why my back and legs are now killing me!). Anyway, there was a couple
        of
        > other groups there - I won't name, as none of them are on this list,
        and they
        > therefore can't reply, however, there ws the usual combat along the
        lines of "all
        > interested welcome", so I took spear and sword and went in to fight.
        >
        > Now one of these groups was really good, and took their hits. The
        other
        > didn't. Both my group and the first mentioned group were getting
        really annoyed -
        > not only didn't they take their hits when it was so blatantly obvious
        that
        > they had been hit (example: I caught one guy a beauty on the chest
        with my
        > spear causing him to go backwards but he wouldn't fall down) they
        would also start
        > wrestling to the floor anyone who didn't take their hits.
        >
        > So my question is this: What's the best thing to do? I was really
        annoyed
        > at the end. I'm a fighter - I even train others, but how can I enjoy
        an event
        > when there's this kind of thing going on, or more importantly, what
        can be
        > done? I've heard of other groups having this problem with this same
        society.
        >
        > Alan
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Jeff Gedney
        When I was fighting, My response was to State, clearly and loudly, Since you are evidently immortal, and I am not, I yield. , and walk away without anger (the
        Message 3 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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          When I was fighting, My response was to State, clearly and loudly, "Since you are evidently immortal, and I am not, I yield.", and walk away without anger (the toughest part).

          A highly ranked fighter of my acquaintence has a different schema, which is, basically to "ratchet up the calibration" until he pounds the guy into mush. Not my style, that.

          Personally if both your groups simply ceded the field unfought rather than face these guys, and then gone off and had your own fun, where they can see it, a serious clue would have been delivered. If in a melee, you all just yield every bout unfought if you face one such.
          After a while they start to feel ostracized for all that they are winning. Clue delivered.

          Remember, if you arent having fun anymore, you stopped doing it right.
          Winning these things is never as important as the adrenaline makes it appear.

          Capt Elias

          --------------------------------------------------------------
          The Purpose of the First Amendment is not to protect only
          comfortable speech. Such speech needs no protection. It is,
          rather, the daring, the profound, the probitive, and yes, the
          offensive, that needs that shield. For nothing significant,
          not in art, culture, or even in politics, has ever arisen
          from pandering to the whims of majority.
        • Alanfrize@aol.com
          In a message dated 03/05/2004 20:15:02 GMT Standard Time, gedney1@iconn.net ... I like that idea! I think I ll give it a try. Afraid that the whole thing got
          Message 4 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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            In a message dated 03/05/2004 20:15:02 GMT Standard Time, gedney1@...
            writes:

            > A highly ranked fighter of my acquaintence has a different schema, which
            > is, basically to "ratchet up the calibration" until he pounds the guy into
            > mush. Not my style, that.
            >
            > Personally if both your groups simply ceded the field unfought rather than
            > face these guys, and then gone off and had your own fun, where they can see
            > it, a serious clue would have been delivered. If in a melee, you all just yield
            > every bout unfought if you face one such.
            > After a while they start to feel ostracized for all that they are winning.
            > Clue delivered.
            >

            I like that idea! I think I'll give it a try.

            Afraid that the whole thing got under my skin - I've been a fighter since I
            started 14 years ago, and not taking hits is, to me at least, one of the worst
            offences in re-enactment.

            Alan


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • MMM
            ... Are you talking live-steel work? Do you /really/ want to ratchet up enough for a nit wit to accept the blow? Knowing how hard that may need to be? May I
            Message 5 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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              > From: Alanfrize@... [mailto:Alanfrize@...]
              > I like that idea! I think I'll give it a try.
              >
              Are you talking live-steel work? Do you /really/ want to ratchet up
              enough for a nit wit to accept the blow? Knowing how hard that may need
              to be? May I suggest that you say to them first: "do you really want me
              to hit you harder?". And make sure you have a witness.

              Madinia
            • Jeff Gedney
              ... I think, heart, that he was talking about my idea of just ceding the bout unfought, (a kind of Shunning behavior) until they realize that they are playing
              Message 6 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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                >>
                >Are you talking live-steel work? Do you /really/ want to ratchet
                >up enough for a nit wit to accept the blow? Knowing how hard
                >that may need to be? May I suggest that you say to them
                >first: "do you really want me to hit you harder?". And make sure
                >you have a witness.

                I think, heart, that he was talking about my idea of just ceding the bout unfought, (a kind of Shunning behavior) until they realize that they are playing "wrong", and get the clue.

                Capt Elias

                --------------------------------------------------------------
                The Purpose of the First Amendment is not to protect only
                comfortable speech. Such speech needs no protection. It is,
                rather, the daring, the profound, the probitive, and yes, the
                offensive, that needs that shield. For nothing significant,
                not in art, culture, or even in politics, has ever arisen
                from pandering to the whims of majority.
              • Ro
                First question should be - WHY do you fight? Do you fight only to win, or to do honour to the one who inspires you? If you fight only to win, then by all
                Message 7 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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                  First question should be - WHY do you fight? Do you fight only to win, or
                  to do honour to the one who inspires you?

                  If you fight only to win, then by all means, lie cheat steal to obtain your
                  goals. That's what rhino hiders do.

                  If you fight to do honour to the one who inspires you, then your actions
                  should be dictated by what achieves that honouring.

                  From your missive, I rather think you fight for the later as opposed to the
                  former. Vivat, my lord, for that.

                  Ro

                  http://www.gothador.com/index.php?ref=835
                  an interactive D&D game! Great Fun
                • Alanfrize@aol.com
                  In a message dated 03/05/2004 21:24:27 GMT Standard Time, ... No, I am talking about walking off the field. I have used live-steel weapons for 14 years. I
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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                    In a message dated 03/05/2004 21:24:27 GMT Standard Time,
                    marshamclean@... writes:

                    > Are you talking live-steel work? Do you /really/ want to ratchet up
                    > enough for a nit wit to accept the blow? Knowing how hard that may need
                    > to be? May I suggest that you say to them first: "do you really want me
                    > to hit you harder?". And make sure you have a witness.
                    >
                    > Madinia
                    >

                    No, I am talking about walking off the field.

                    I have used 'live-steel' weapons for 14 years. I have yet to inflict or see
                    an injury.

                    Alan


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Alanfrize@aol.com
                    In a message dated 03/05/2004 22:35:02 GMT Standard Time, ladyro@comcast.net ... Because I enjoy it, simple as that. However, to me, it s always been a
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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                      In a message dated 03/05/2004 22:35:02 GMT Standard Time, ladyro@...
                      writes:

                      > First question should be - WHY do you fight? Do you fight only to win, or
                      > to do honour to the one who inspires you?
                      >

                      Because I enjoy it, simple as that. However, to me, it's always been a
                      Gentleman's agreement about taking hits - a case of "You do, so therefore, so do
                      I".

                      ALan


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • MMM
                      ... or see ... Ah, I misread the statement. I know live steel is safe, I have buddies in a local Medieval Martial Arts group and I ve seen them train. Walking
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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                        > No, I am talking about walking off the field.
                        > I have used 'live-steel' weapons for 14 years. I have yet to inflict
                        or see
                        > an injury.
                        > Alan
                        >
                        Ah, I misread the statement. I know live steel is safe, I have buddies
                        in a local Medieval Martial Arts group and I've seen them train.
                        Walking off the field will make the point admirably.

                        Madinia
                      • Cynthia J Ley
                        ... Talk to the marshal maybe? Or are they not paying as careful attention as they ought? A very dear friend, God rest him, was a senior marshal here in An
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 4, 2004
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                          > So my question is this: What's the best thing to do? I was really
                          > annoyed
                          > at the end. I'm a fighter - I even train others, but how can I
                          > enjoy an event
                          > when there's this kind of thing going on, or more importantly, what
                          > can be
                          > done? I've heard of other groups having this problem with this same
                          > society.
                          >
                          > Alan

                          Talk to the marshal maybe? Or are they not paying as careful attention as
                          they ought?

                          A very dear friend, God rest him, was a senior marshal here in An Tir.
                          One time he caught a fighter not accepting head blows. He called a hold,
                          indicated that the fighter come over to him, and squatted down on the
                          ground, giving the hapless fighter no choice but to do the same. He asked
                          the fellow to remove his helm, and without saying another word, looked
                          carefully at him from one eye to the other. The fighter, getting nervous,
                          asked, "Is something the matter, my Lord Marshal?" The marshal replied,
                          "I'm checking to see if your pupils are equal and reactive," stood up,
                          and resumed the fight.

                          The guy went down on the next shot.

                          Arlys



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                        • aheilvei
                          ... up,and resumed the fight. ... Great response to the problem. Despina
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 4, 2004
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                            > "I'm checking to see if your pupils are equal and reactive," stood
                            up,and resumed the fight.
                            >
                            > The guy went down on the next shot.
                            >


                            Great response to the problem.

                            Despina
                          • Alanfrize@aol.com
                            In a message dated 04/05/2004 16:09:11 GMT Standard Time, cley@juno.com ... Unless it s a major event, we don t use Marshalls, which is part of the problem.
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 4, 2004
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                              In a message dated 04/05/2004 16:09:11 GMT Standard Time, cley@...
                              writes:

                              > Talk to the marshal maybe? Or are they not paying as careful attention as
                              > they ought?
                              >

                              Unless it's a major event, we don't use Marshalls, which is part of the
                              problem.

                              Alan


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • aheilvei
                              ... of the problem. ... I thought this one was society wide, but I know that in the Middle Kingdom, you can t have a fighter practice or anything of the sort
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 4, 2004
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                                > Unless it's a major event, we don't use Marshalls, which is part
                                of the problem.
                                >
                                > Alan
                                >

                                I thought this one was society wide, but I know that in the Middle
                                Kingdom, you can't have a fighter practice or anything of the sort
                                without a marshal present.

                                Despina
                              • Alanfrize@aol.com
                                In a message dated 04/05/2004 17:53:37 GMT Standard Time, aheilvei@uiuc.edu ... Despina, I was talking about a UK re-enactment event, although from the
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 4, 2004
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                                  In a message dated 04/05/2004 17:53:37 GMT Standard Time, aheilvei@...
                                  writes:

                                  > I thought this one was society wide, but I know that in the Middle
                                  > Kingdom, you can't have a fighter practice or anything of the sort
                                  > without a marshal present.
                                  >
                                  > Despina
                                  >

                                  Despina, I was talking about a UK re-enactment event, although from the
                                  responses I've seen, it seems both the SCA and re-enactment groups commonly get
                                  this problem.

                                  Alan


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • aheilvei
                                  ... from the responses I ve seen, it seems both the SCA and re- enactment groups commonly get this problem. ... Having people rhino though shots is a
                                  Message 16 of 19 , May 4, 2004
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                                    > Despina, I was talking about a UK re-enactment event, although
                                    from the responses I've seen, it seems both the SCA and re-
                                    enactment groups commonly get this problem.
                                    >
                                    >


                                    Having people 'rhino' though shots is a problem that's always going
                                    to occur when the adreneline flows, IMO. Not having a marshal on
                                    the field makes it worse, IMO. I've seen marshals pull dukes out of
                                    fights because the duke in question wouldn't take a hit. It happens -
                                    it's part of why the marshals are there and why they should be
                                    there. If your group is having marshal activities and no one to
                                    say, "halt", that is going to cause injuries because there is no
                                    authority on the field to make them stop bad behavior.

                                    Despina
                                  • Alanfrize@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 04/05/2004 18:06:25 GMT Standard Time, aheilvei@uiuc.edu ... We have Marshalls at larger battles, however this was more of an informal thing
                                    Message 17 of 19 , May 4, 2004
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                                      In a message dated 04/05/2004 18:06:25 GMT Standard Time, aheilvei@...
                                      writes:

                                      > Having people 'rhino' though shots is a problem that's always going
                                      > to occur when the adreneline flows, IMO. Not having a marshal on
                                      > the field makes it worse, IMO. I've seen marshals pull dukes out of
                                      > fights because the duke in question wouldn't take a hit. It happens -
                                      > it's part of why the marshals are there and why they should be
                                      > there. If your group is having marshal activities and no one to
                                      > say, "halt", that is going to cause injuries because there is no
                                      > authority on the field to make them stop bad behavior.
                                      >
                                      > Despina
                                      >

                                      We have Marshalls at larger battles, however this was more of an informal
                                      thing - it was mainly a living history event, with the added bonus of some
                                      fighting for those that wanted it.

                                      I have seen Marshalls at larger events pull people put of combat for not
                                      taking their hits - usually clankies (someone in full harness) who seem to think
                                      they're invincible. However this was against a society I used to have a lot of
                                      respect for, now I see them in a diferent light.

                                      Alan


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                                    • MMM
                                      I believe Alan is talking about his Scottish reenactment group, Gadgeddlar. Non SCA IIRC. Madinia
                                      Message 18 of 19 , May 4, 2004
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                                        I believe Alan is talking about his Scottish reenactment group,
                                        Gadgeddlar. Non SCA IIRC.

                                        Madinia

                                        > From: aheilvei [mailto:aheilvei@...]
                                        > > Unless it's a major event, we don't use Marshalls, which is part
                                        > of the problem.
                                        > >
                                        > > Alan
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > I thought this one was society wide, but I know that in the Middle
                                        > Kingdom, you can't have a fighter practice or anything of the sort
                                        > without a marshal present.
                                        >
                                        > Despina
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                      • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 5/3/2004 7:36:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                        Message 19 of 19 , May 4, 2004
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                                          In a message dated 5/3/2004 7:36:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                          Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

                                          <<So my question is this: What's the best thing to do? I was really annoyed
                                          at the end. I'm a fighter - I even train others, but how can I enjoy an
                                          event
                                          when there's this kind of thing going on, or more importantly, what can be
                                          done? I've heard of other groups having this problem with this same
                                          society.>>

                                          If you see that group is in the line, refuse to fight them - politely - and
                                          explain why. Get your whole group and the other groups who have been
                                          complaining about them to do the same thing. This may help them to understand that
                                          they are not making things fun for the other participants, and that the other
                                          participants don't want to play with them because of it.
                                          If this isn't an option because the events in question are public demos and
                                          the show must go on, then get representatives of all the groups together and
                                          meet with them about it.

                                          Brangwayna
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