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Garb: Austria/Bavaria - 12th Century?

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  • Ken Mortimer
    Hello all, I don t like to ask for information without having exhausted all of my methods of finding it, so I hope this isn t too basic of a question for this
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 17, 2004
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      Hello all,
      I don't like to ask for information without having exhausted all of
      my methods of finding it, so I hope this isn't too basic of a
      question for this list.

      It seems there are loads of resources on 12th Century England,
      France, Italy, and even Scandanavia, but I've found it very
      difficult to find anything related to Austria/Osterreich or Bavaria
      (I thought it might be easier to find information on Bavarian garb,
      and I figured it wouldn't be too much different from Austrian garb).
      From what I can tell, it seems I may end up having to go to my first
      event in a 't-tunic' (thanks to the "'T-tunic' - the period way"
      article), but I'd like to know what a more area-specific garb would
      be.

      Also, this is slightly unrelated, but I'm wondering where exactly
      one finds good primary sources for names. I see certain names
      mentioned all over in different articles and books, but my Latin
      isn't exactly good enough to decipher a primary source :/


      Thanks so much,
      Kenneth Mortimer
      Albrecht von Osterreich? (still need to officially apply for this
      name)
    • aheilvei
      ... Hi and welcome to the list. Did you have a look around the links section for the group? we have a foldern titled, Persona and Names (or something like
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 18, 2004
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        > Also, this is slightly unrelated, but I'm wondering where exactly
        > one finds good primary sources for names. I see certain names
        > mentioned all over in different articles and books, but my Latin
        > isn't exactly good enough to decipher a primary source :/
        >
        >
        > Thanks so much,
        > Kenneth Mortimer
        > Albrecht von Osterreich? (still need to officially apply for this
        > name)

        Hi and welcome to the list.

        Did you have a look around the links section for the group? we have
        a foldern titled, Persona and Names (or something like that) with
        links to the St. Gabriel Guild and the Medieval Names Directory, as
        well as the Laurels Names Place. Not all primary sources are in
        Latin.

        I also recommend going through the groups archives. If you just use
        the word names as your search you'll probably come up with a lot of
        sources and such (people really need to start putting those things
        into the reading list in the groups database section - for all our
        conversations on names there isn't a single book on the subject in
        the reading list).

        Hope this is helpful.

        Despina
      • Ken Mortimer
        ... exactly ... this ... have ... as ... use ... of ... D oh, I could ve sworn I didn t see the link last time I was in the folder. Sorry, I hate to ask
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 18, 2004
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...>
          wrote:
          >
          > > Also, this is slightly unrelated, but I'm wondering where
          exactly
          > > one finds good primary sources for names. I see certain names
          > > mentioned all over in different articles and books, but my Latin
          > > isn't exactly good enough to decipher a primary source :/
          > >
          > >
          > > Thanks so much,
          > > Kenneth Mortimer
          > > Albrecht von Osterreich? (still need to officially apply for
          this
          > > name)
          >
          > Hi and welcome to the list.
          >
          > Did you have a look around the links section for the group? we
          have
          > a foldern titled, Persona and Names (or something like that) with
          > links to the St. Gabriel Guild and the Medieval Names Directory,
          as
          > well as the Laurels Names Place. Not all primary sources are in
          > Latin.
          >
          > I also recommend going through the groups archives. If you just
          use
          > the word names as your search you'll probably come up with a lot
          of
          > sources and such (people really need to start putting those things
          > into the reading list in the groups database section - for all our
          > conversations on names there isn't a single book on the subject in
          > the reading list).

          D'oh, I could've sworn I didn't see the link last time I was in the
          folder. Sorry, I hate to ask questions that are basically already
          answered :P I've searched the group archives for "Austria"
          and "Osterreich" (mostly looking for clothing), but came up with
          nothing. Of course, I'll take a look for the name specifically.

          Thanks again, and sorry for not seeing that link!

          Kenneth Mortimer
          Albrecht von Osterreich?
          >
          > Hope this is helpful.
          >
          > Despina
        • aheilvei
          ... No problem, glad to help. Searching the group archives for a specific name is usually not going to garner people much help - since each person has
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 18, 2004
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            > Thanks again, and sorry for not seeing that link!


            No problem, glad to help. Searching the group archives for a
            specific name is usually not going to garner people much help -
            since each person has different ideas for names. However, other
            types of searches (such as omnastics, names, name, name research,
            and the like) can be more helpful. Also, many of the heralds on
            this list are quite helpful to people asking such questions so a
            number of posts (search for herald or herald help) can be fielded on
            the list specifically.

            Smiles,
            Despina
          • Wanda Pease
            Albrecht, The place I d start would be: http://www.tempora-nostra.de/index_f_neu.shtml?manesse0-9 True, the Manesse is 13th Century, but most of the
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 19, 2004
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              Albrecht,

              The place I'd start would be:
              http://www.tempora-nostra.de/index_f_neu.shtml?manesse0-9 True, the
              Manesse is 13th Century, but most of the illustrations are from the place
              you are interested in. In addition to looking for paintings from your
              period look for sculpture from various cathedrals of towns/cities in your
              chosen area. Strasburg comes to mind although it is on the German/French
              border.
              For names, the Academy of St. Gabriel, heraldic types for the SCA, or again
              take to the web and start putting in town names of the area you are
              interested in and fishing for history. You can't be exactly the same name
              as someone historically listed, but you can use the first name from one and
              the last from another, or use a patronymic, job name (Schmidt), or locality
              (Altdorfer). I would advise against "von Osterreich", but that's because
              I'm an old and crusty herald from the beginning of time <grin> It sounds
              way too much like an imperial title. How about "dem Osterreich"? It also
              says where you are from with no possibly out of period connotations.
              I just finished a fun travel book that followed the travels of the Empress
              Constance, wife to Emperor Henry IV and mother (at 40!) to Fredrick II. I'd
              look into the Hohenstaufens and their vassals for names. I think that
              Fredrick Barbarossa ruled smack dab in the time and area you are interested
              in. You can even go on Crusade with him and meet all kinds of interesting
              people and ki (no, don't finish that tee shirt line).


              Just starting suggestions.

              Regina Romsey

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Ken Mortimer [mailto:grano@...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 6:48 PM
              > To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Garb: Austria/Bavaria - 12th Century?
              >
              >
              > Hello all,
              > I don't like to ask for information without having exhausted all of
              > my methods of finding it, so I hope this isn't too basic of a
              > question for this list.
              >
              > It seems there are loads of resources on 12th Century England,
              > France, Italy, and even Scandanavia, but I've found it very
              > difficult to find anything related to Austria/Osterreich or Bavaria
              > (I thought it might be easier to find information on Bavarian garb,
              > and I figured it wouldn't be too much different from Austrian garb).
              > From what I can tell, it seems I may end up having to go to my first
              > event in a 't-tunic' (thanks to the "'T-tunic' - the period way"
              > article), but I'd like to know what a more area-specific garb would
              > be.
              >
              > Also, this is slightly unrelated, but I'm wondering where exactly
              > one finds good primary sources for names. I see certain names
              > mentioned all over in different articles and books, but my Latin
              > isn't exactly good enough to decipher a primary source :/
              >
              >
              > Thanks so much,
              > Kenneth Mortimer
              > Albrecht von Osterreich? (still need to officially apply for this
              > name)
              >
            • Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
              There were several styles going around europe in the 12th century. Basically they are all (except maybe a few french women s bliauts which are debated)
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 23, 2004
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                There were several styles going around europe in the 12th century. Basically they are all (except maybe a few french women's bliauts
                which are debated) t-tunics. So going with a period t-tunic is a great move. I should add - as far as we know - there's only a few
                extant men's garments (which is an improvement on womens - none) and mostly they are from kings or saintly archbishops.

                I recommend trying to find some artwork from your time and place, and from that working out how to modify the small details on your
                t-tunic like length, tightness and decoration. I think you'll be aiming for a general tunic, not a men's bliaut, since I haven't seen any
                germanic men's bliauts yet. The basics will be extemely similar to the basic french and english tunics. (avoid actual costume books -
                they'll stop using victorian era bad conjecture eventually, but not yet).

                Looking for artwork becomes a whole lot easier when you realise the key phrase is "romanesque". You'll need a large state or
                university library, and look up the cataolgue for topics such as romanesque sculpture, artwork, manuscripts, etc.
                You may wish to widen your search a bit, to general germanic region (holy roman empire), as bavarian/Austria is real specific. You'll
                also want to know what that region was called, it's major medieval cities (and their modern names), and maybe even it's major
                local rulers, so that you know what stuff is when it is found.
                12th century is a time of travel, so fashion trends were being passed around.

                Broad trends in germanic art I *think* I've noticed:
                *use of bicep decorative band commonly, rare in france/england (thanks to Shana for this)
                *tendancy for illustrations to show patterned fabric more often (on kings). Perhaps they had more acess to byzantine silk brocades,
                or maybe they just liked drawing the details better. There is a suggestion england became so good at embroidery during this period
                because they couldn't get the same acess to brocaded fabrics (and thus imitated with embroidery).
                *extra bands of decoration, byzantine style - eg down the front of the t-tunic, for extra fancy garments
                *some stuff is looser around the chest than english or french tunics. I'm not sure if this is time or region based, but a number have
                looser garments. You'll be able to draw better conculsions with more pictures.


                Some starters:
                Dodwell "pictorial arts of the west 1000-1200".
                Excellent art book, cover's all art forms, in colour, mostly divided up by region. Also has maps at the front.
                His "painting of the west" is not as great, black and white, some overlap, some differnt material.

                Davenport "A history of costume"
                Small black and white reproductions of period art. Text more dubious. Should have a couple of pictures.

                12th century garb yahoo group <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12thcenturygarb>. Doesn't have all the answers - research is related
                to it's members, and very few are making germanic or male garb. However it's your best place to ask questions. Asking big
                questions wont always net answers, but asking about refernces to search further, and similar specific questions will get answers.

                horus delictarium (spelling?) - a germanic maniuscript. Trouble is only victorian redrawings exist of most of it. Take a look in dodwell
                for a comparison of original and redrawings - you can't trust the details of the redrawings, but it does have the right flavour. Just a
                warning. Once you've gotten used to the look, you'll be able to spot a redrawing when the next one appears, and relegate it to
                secondary source status.

                Schraum "denkmale der deutschen konigen"
                you don't need to read german to appreciate high quality black and white plates of objects, some made and decorated in 12thC
                germany, and also plates of some extant 12thC clothing from sicily and the holdy roman empire. You will need to sort the sicilian
                made from the german made though if you want to be hightly accurate. (although there was a lot of travel between the two, so the
                possibilities of a knight picking up some clothing are high). Oh, and remember roger II was about the richest man in europe at he time
                he got those clothes made. Interesting detail on those tunics is a side opening neck slit rather than the frontal keyhole neckline. (no i
                don't quite know how that works yet).

                Well that's a start anyway, enjoy and tell us how you are going, ask again, and above all, tell us your results please.

                Teffania
                (12th century english lady who so wants to make a pilgrimage to sicily and maybe up int othe holy roman empire)


                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Mortimer" <grano@t...> wrote:
                > Hello all,
                > I don't like to ask for information without having exhausted all of
                > my methods of finding it, so I hope this isn't too basic of a
                > question for this list.
                >
                > It seems there are loads of resources on 12th Century England,
                > France, Italy, and even Scandanavia, but I've found it very
                > difficult to find anything related to Austria/Osterreich or Bavaria
                > (I thought it might be easier to find information on Bavarian garb,
                > and I figured it wouldn't be too much different from Austrian garb).
                > From what I can tell, it seems I may end up having to go to my first
                > event in a 't-tunic' (thanks to the "'T-tunic' - the period way"
                > article), but I'd like to know what a more area-specific garb would
                > be.
                >
                > Also, this is slightly unrelated, but I'm wondering where exactly
                > one finds good primary sources for names. I see certain names
                > mentioned all over in different articles and books, but my Latin
                > isn't exactly good enough to decipher a primary source :/
                >
                >
                > Thanks so much,
                > Kenneth Mortimer
                > Albrecht von Osterreich? (still need to officially apply for this
                > name)
              • Jane Stockton
                ... Teffania, Can I respectfully suggest that this info would be GREAT on Cunnan Wiki!! Cheers, Jane
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 23, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  At 12:32 PM 24/03/2004, you wrote:
                  >There were several styles going around europe in the 12th
                  >century. Basically they are all (except maybe a few french women's bliauts
                  >which are debated) t-tunics. So going with a period t-tunic is a great
                  >move. I should add - as far as we know - there's only a few
                  >extant men's garments (which is an improvement on womens - none) and
                  >mostly they are from kings or saintly archbishops.
                  >
                  >I recommend trying to find some artwork from your time and place, and from
                  >that working out how to modify the small details on your
                  >t-tunic like length, tightness and decoration. I think you'll be aiming
                  >for a general tunic, not a men's bliaut, since I haven't seen any
                  >germanic men's bliauts yet. The basics will be extemely similar to the
                  >basic french and english tunics. (avoid actual costume books -
                  >they'll stop using victorian era bad conjecture eventually, but not yet).
                  >
                  >Looking for artwork becomes a whole lot easier when you realise the key
                  >phrase is "romanesque". You'll need a large state or
                  >university library, and look up the cataolgue for topics such as
                  >romanesque sculpture, artwork, manuscripts, etc.
                  >You may wish to widen your search a bit, to general germanic region (holy
                  >roman empire), as bavarian/Austria is real specific. You'll
                  >also want to know what that region was called, it's major medieval cities
                  >(and their modern names), and maybe even it's major
                  >local rulers, so that you know what stuff is when it is found.
                  >12th century is a time of travel, so fashion trends were being passed around.
                  >
                  >Broad trends in germanic art I *think* I've noticed:
                  >*use of bicep decorative band commonly, rare in france/england (thanks to
                  >Shana for this)
                  >*tendancy for illustrations to show patterned fabric more often (on
                  >kings). Perhaps they had more acess to byzantine silk brocades,
                  >or maybe they just liked drawing the details better. There is a
                  >suggestion england became so good at embroidery during this period
                  >because they couldn't get the same acess to brocaded fabrics (and thus
                  >imitated with embroidery).
                  >*extra bands of decoration, byzantine style - eg down the front of the
                  >t-tunic, for extra fancy garments
                  >*some stuff is looser around the chest than english or french tunics. I'm
                  >not sure if this is time or region based, but a number have
                  >looser garments. You'll be able to draw better conculsions with more
                  >pictures.
                  >
                  >
                  >Some starters:
                  >Dodwell "pictorial arts of the west 1000-1200".
                  >Excellent art book, cover's all art forms, in colour, mostly divided up by
                  >region. Also has maps at the front.
                  >His "painting of the west" is not as great, black and white, some overlap,
                  >some differnt material.
                  >
                  >Davenport "A history of costume"
                  >Small black and white reproductions of period art. Text more
                  >dubious. Should have a couple of pictures.
                  >
                  >12th century garb yahoo group
                  ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12thcenturygarb>. Doesn't have all the
                  >answers - research is related
                  >to it's members, and very few are making germanic or male garb. However
                  >it's your best place to ask questions. Asking big
                  >questions wont always net answers, but asking about refernces to search
                  >further, and similar specific questions will get answers.
                  >
                  >horus delictarium (spelling?) - a germanic maniuscript. Trouble is only
                  >victorian redrawings exist of most of it. Take a look in dodwell
                  >for a comparison of original and redrawings - you can't trust the details
                  >of the redrawings, but it does have the right flavour. Just a
                  >warning. Once you've gotten used to the look, you'll be able to spot a
                  >redrawing when the next one appears, and relegate it to
                  >secondary source status.
                  >
                  >Schraum "denkmale der deutschen konigen"
                  >you don't need to read german to appreciate high quality black and white
                  >plates of objects, some made and decorated in 12thC
                  >germany, and also plates of some extant 12thC clothing from sicily and the
                  >holdy roman empire. You will need to sort the sicilian
                  >made from the german made though if you want to be hightly accurate.
                  >(although there was a lot of travel between the two, so the
                  >possibilities of a knight picking up some clothing are high). Oh, and
                  >remember roger II was about the richest man in europe at he time
                  >he got those clothes made. Interesting detail on those tunics is a side
                  >opening neck slit rather than the frontal keyhole neckline. (no i
                  >don't quite know how that works yet).
                  >
                  >Well that's a start anyway, enjoy and tell us how you are going, ask
                  >again, and above all, tell us your results please.
                  >
                  >Teffania
                  >(12th century english lady who so wants to make a pilgrimage to sicily and
                  >maybe up int othe holy roman empire)

                  Teffania,

                  Can I respectfully suggest that this info would be GREAT on Cunnan Wiki!!

                  Cheers,
                  Jane
                • Ken Mortimer
                  Thanks for the wealth of information! :-D I actually thought the key word for the 12th century would ve been gothic, but I should ve known better thant to
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 23, 2004
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                    Thanks for the wealth of information! :-D

                    I actually thought the key word for the 12th century would've been "gothic,"
                    but I should've known better thant to think eras and styles have any set
                    dates :-P I'm lucky enough to have quite a few different universities and
                    countless libraries in my area to access. I'be been meaning to go on a
                    "research vacation" of sorts for quite a while, and may just end up getting
                    motivated enough to do it this weekend.

                    Also, since this era and location have been somewhat difficult (compared to
                    Italy, England, or France at least) to find information about, someone
                    remind me to catalogue or write up my findings.

                    Kenneth Mortimer
                    (SCA name pending)

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton" <tbro3@...>
                    To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 8:32 PM
                    Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Garb: Austria/Bavaria - 12th Century?


                    > There were several styles going around europe in the 12th century.
                    Basically they are all (except maybe a few french women's bliauts
                    > which are debated) t-tunics. So going with a period t-tunic is a great
                    move. I should add - as far as we know - there's only a few
                    > extant men's garments (which is an improvement on womens - none) and
                    mostly they are from kings or saintly archbishops.
                    >
                    > I recommend trying to find some artwork from your time and place, and from
                    that working out how to modify the small details on your
                    > t-tunic like length, tightness and decoration. I think you'll be aiming
                    for a general tunic, not a men's bliaut, since I haven't seen any
                    > germanic men's bliauts yet. The basics will be extemely similar to the
                    basic french and english tunics. (avoid actual costume books -
                    > they'll stop using victorian era bad conjecture eventually, but not yet).
                    >
                    > Looking for artwork becomes a whole lot easier when you realise the key
                    phrase is "romanesque". You'll need a large state or
                    > university library, and look up the cataolgue for topics such as
                    romanesque sculpture, artwork, manuscripts, etc.
                    > You may wish to widen your search a bit, to general germanic region (holy
                    roman empire), as bavarian/Austria is real specific. You'll
                    > also want to know what that region was called, it's major medieval cities
                    (and their modern names), and maybe even it's major
                    > local rulers, so that you know what stuff is when it is found.
                    > 12th century is a time of travel, so fashion trends were being passed
                    around.
                    >
                    > Broad trends in germanic art I *think* I've noticed:
                    > *use of bicep decorative band commonly, rare in france/england (thanks to
                    Shana for this)
                    > *tendancy for illustrations to show patterned fabric more often (on
                    kings). Perhaps they had more acess to byzantine silk brocades,
                    > or maybe they just liked drawing the details better. There is a
                    suggestion england became so good at embroidery during this period
                    > because they couldn't get the same acess to brocaded fabrics (and thus
                    imitated with embroidery).
                    > *extra bands of decoration, byzantine style - eg down the front of the
                    t-tunic, for extra fancy garments
                    > *some stuff is looser around the chest than english or french tunics. I'm
                    not sure if this is time or region based, but a number have
                    > looser garments. You'll be able to draw better conculsions with more
                    pictures.
                    >
                    >
                    > Some starters:
                    > Dodwell "pictorial arts of the west 1000-1200".
                    > Excellent art book, cover's all art forms, in colour, mostly divided up by
                    region. Also has maps at the front.
                    > His "painting of the west" is not as great, black and white, some overlap,
                    some differnt material.
                    >
                    > Davenport "A history of costume"
                    > Small black and white reproductions of period art. Text more dubious.
                    Should have a couple of pictures.
                    >
                    > 12th century garb yahoo group
                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12thcenturygarb>. Doesn't have all the
                    answers - research is related
                    > to it's members, and very few are making germanic or male garb. However
                    it's your best place to ask questions. Asking big
                    > questions wont always net answers, but asking about refernces to search
                    further, and similar specific questions will get answers.
                    >
                    > horus delictarium (spelling?) - a germanic maniuscript. Trouble is only
                    victorian redrawings exist of most of it. Take a look in dodwell
                    > for a comparison of original and redrawings - you can't trust the details
                    of the redrawings, but it does have the right flavour. Just a
                    > warning. Once you've gotten used to the look, you'll be able to spot a
                    redrawing when the next one appears, and relegate it to
                    > secondary source status.
                    >
                    > Schraum "denkmale der deutschen konigen"
                    > you don't need to read german to appreciate high quality black and white
                    plates of objects, some made and decorated in 12thC
                    > germany, and also plates of some extant 12thC clothing from sicily and the
                    holdy roman empire. You will need to sort the sicilian
                    > made from the german made though if you want to be hightly accurate.
                    (although there was a lot of travel between the two, so the
                    > possibilities of a knight picking up some clothing are high). Oh, and
                    remember roger II was about the richest man in europe at he time
                    > he got those clothes made. Interesting detail on those tunics is a side
                    opening neck slit rather than the frontal keyhole neckline. (no i
                    > don't quite know how that works yet).
                    >
                    > Well that's a start anyway, enjoy and tell us how you are going, ask
                    again, and above all, tell us your results please.
                    >
                    > Teffania
                    > (12th century english lady who so wants to make a pilgrimage to sicily and
                    maybe up int othe holy roman empire)
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Mortimer" <grano@t...> wrote:
                    > > Hello all,
                    > > I don't like to ask for information without having exhausted all of
                    > > my methods of finding it, so I hope this isn't too basic of a
                    > > question for this list.
                    > >
                    > > It seems there are loads of resources on 12th Century England,
                    > > France, Italy, and even Scandanavia, but I've found it very
                    > > difficult to find anything related to Austria/Osterreich or Bavaria
                    > > (I thought it might be easier to find information on Bavarian garb,
                    > > and I figured it wouldn't be too much different from Austrian garb).
                    > > From what I can tell, it seems I may end up having to go to my first
                    > > event in a 't-tunic' (thanks to the "'T-tunic' - the period way"
                    > > article), but I'd like to know what a more area-specific garb would
                    > > be.
                    > >
                    > > Also, this is slightly unrelated, but I'm wondering where exactly
                    > > one finds good primary sources for names. I see certain names
                    > > mentioned all over in different articles and books, but my Latin
                    > > isn't exactly good enough to decipher a primary source :/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Thanks so much,
                    > > Kenneth Mortimer
                    > > Albrecht von Osterreich? (still need to officially apply for this
                    > > name)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----------------------------------------------------
                    > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                    How do you say in heraldic: [goose] standing on one foot with the other foot held out in front, and the wings spread out ? Thank you so much. Gwervyl
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 24, 2004
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                      How do you say in heraldic: [goose] "standing on one
                      foot with the other foot held out in front, and the
                      wings spread out"?

                      Thank you so much.

                      Gwervyl

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                    • Chris Laning
                      ... A bird facing to the left, standing on one foot with the other foot raised, is passant. The same facing to the right is passant to sinister. (I m
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 24, 2004
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                        Gwervyl wrote:
                        >How do you say in heraldic: [goose] "standing on one
                        >foot with the other foot held out in front, and the
                        >wings spread out"?

                        A bird facing to the left, standing on one foot with the other foot raised, is "passant." The same facing to the right is "passant to sinister." (I'm assuming the bird's body is standing sideways, facing either direction.)

                        Can't tell for sure about the wings, it depends on _how_ they're spread out. You will probably need two adjectives to completely describe the wings.

                        First adjective:

                        - If both wings are shown on the same side of the bird's head
                        (as you'd normally see them in a sideways bird), the wings
                        are "addorsed."

                        - If one wing is on one side of the bird's head, and the other
                        wing is on the other side -- that is, if the top part of the bird
                        is turned so it's facing you -- and the tips are the highest part
                        of the wings, the wings are "displayed."

                        Second adjective:

                        - If the TIPS of the wings are the highest part of the wing, the
                        wings are "elevated."

                        - If the _WRISTS_ or "bumps" where the wings bend are the
                        highest part of the wings, the wings are "inverted."

                        Take a look at http://www.rarebooks.nd.edu/digital/heraldry/charges/birds.html
                        if you would like to see illustrations of these. (Look for "postures of birds" toward the bottom of the page.)

                        So you could have "a goose passant, wings addorsed and inverted," or "a goose passant to sinister, wings displayed and elevated," or any other possible combination.

                        Hope this helps:
                        (Lady) Christian de Holacombe


                        ____________________________________________________________
                        0 Chris Laning
                        | <claning@...>
                        + Davis, California
                        ____________________________________________________________
                      • Chris Laning
                        ... Oops, that shouldn t have the part about the tips in it. I got ... Stuff about the tips should go in the next section. Hope you weren t too confused. --
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 24, 2004
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                          At 3:51 PM -0800 3/24/04, Chris Laning wrote:
                          >First adjective:
                          >
                          > - If both wings are shown on the same side of the bird's head
                          > (as you'd normally see them in a sideways bird), the wings
                          > are "addorsed."
                          >
                          > - If one wing is on one side of the bird's head, and the other
                          > wing is on the other side -- that is, if the top part of the bird
                          > is turned so it's facing you -- and the tips are the highest part
                          > of the wings, the wings are "displayed."

                          Oops, that shouldn't have the part about the tips in it. I got
                          distracted while I was cutting and pasting. It should say :

                          > - If one wing is on one side of the bird's head, and the other
                          > wing is on the other side -- that is, if the top part of the bird
                          > is turned so it's facing you -- the wings are "displayed."

                          Stuff about the tips should go in the next section. Hope you weren't
                          too confused.
                          --
                          _________________________________________________________
                          O (Lady) Christian de Holacombe
                          | Chris Laning <claning@...>
                          + Shire of Windy Meads - Davis, California
                          _________________________________________________________
                        • Heather Rose Jones
                          ... The position is rousant (as in roused to anger , although the more immediate sense seems to be rising into flight -- but don t confuse it with the
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 24, 2004
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                            At 1:54 PM -0800 3/24/04, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg wrote:
                            >How do you say in heraldic: [goose] "standing on one
                            >foot with the other foot held out in front, and the
                            >wings spread out"?

                            The position is "rousant" (as in "roused to anger", although the more
                            immediate sense seems to be "rising into flight" -- but don't
                            confuse it with the position "rising").

                            It seems to be particularly popular for swans, but a brief google
                            search turned up some period examples with other birds.

                            Tangwystyl
                            --
                            *****
                            Heather Rose Jones
                            hrjones@...
                            *****
                          • Lady_Lark_Azure
                            ... For an example, if you look in my photos file, I ve put my arms. The description for the bird is: a lark rising, wings elevated and adorsed, azure.
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 25, 2004
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                              > - If both wings are shown on the same side of the bird's head
                              > (as you'd normally see them in a sideways bird), the wings
                              > are "addorsed."
                              > - If the TIPS of the wings are the highest part of the wing, the
                              > wings are "elevated."

                              For an example, if you look in my photos file, I've put my arms. The
                              description for the bird is: a lark rising, wings elevated and
                              adorsed, azure.

                              Sometimes seeing it helps.

                              Isabeau
                            • cschutrick
                              ... There s no such posture, is the quick answer. :) You need to decide whether you want your bird facing one or the other side of the shield (default), or
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 25, 2004
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                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                <huwydd@y...> wrote:
                                > How do you say in heraldic: [goose] "standing on one
                                > foot with the other foot held out in front, and the
                                > wings spread out"?

                                There's no such posture, is the quick answer. :)

                                You need to decide whether you want your bird facing one or the
                                other side of the shield (default), or looking out at the viewer
                                (affronty). If the latter, "displayed" would give you the spread-
                                out wings, and I suspect you could change the position of the legs
                                as artistic license.

                                If the bird's to be facing the side, you have a problem; I don't
                                think it's possible to have it both "passant", which would give you
                                the raised leg, and with its wings spread out; the goose is not a
                                raptor, and can't be drawn "striking" or the like. "Rising" might
                                do it, but you'd want to talk to a real herald.

                                Check http://www.nwywre.com/herald/AnimalBlazon.html for pictures of
                                some of these.

                                --Jeannette
                              • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                ... Thank you. So would a correct blazon be: barry vert and argent, a goose rousant gules and would this mean: horizontal green and white stripes, a red
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 26, 2004
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                                  --- Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > The position is "rousant"

                                  Thank you. So would a correct blazon be:

                                  "barry vert and argent, a goose rousant gules"

                                  and would this mean:

                                  "horizontal green and white stripes, a red goose on
                                  one foot with wings spread, seen from the side and
                                  facing to the shield's right (the viewer's left)?

                                  And are there any obvious (or even subtle) problems
                                  with such a device, in terms of correctness,
                                  authenticity, plausibility or registerability?

                                  And if I have all that right, I am going to try to
                                  puzzle out for myself how to blazon it in Welsh (using
                                  the article in Y Camamseriad) before asking for help
                                  on that.

                                  Much thanks.

                                  Gweyrvyl

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                                • Heather Rose Jones
                                  ... It occurred to me, after I saw some of the other commentary, that I was automatically assuming that wings spread was wings spread to the back (i.e.,
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 27, 2004
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                                    At 1:53 PM -0800 3/26/04, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg wrote:
                                    >--- Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@...>
                                    >wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >> The position is "rousant"
                                    >
                                    >Thank you. So would a correct blazon be:
                                    >
                                    >"barry vert and argent, a goose rousant gules"
                                    >
                                    >and would this mean:
                                    >
                                    >"horizontal green and white stripes, a red goose on
                                    >one foot with wings spread, seen from the side and
                                    >facing to the shield's right (the viewer's left)?


                                    It occurred to me, after I saw some of the other commentary, that I
                                    was automatically assuming that "wings spread" was "wings spread to
                                    the back" (i.e., both on the same side) and not "wings spread so you
                                    can see both of them one on either side of the bird"). If my
                                    assumption was correct, then my blazon suggestion stands.


                                    >And are there any obvious (or even subtle) problems
                                    >with such a device, in terms of correctness,
                                    >authenticity, plausibility or registerability?


                                    As I mentioned in my previous comment, in real-world armory, this
                                    position seems to be most strongly associated with swans, and you
                                    might want to do a bit more research to discover to what extent it
                                    was used for other birds, and whether there was any heraldic posture
                                    that, in period, was strongly associated with geese. It's a bit of a
                                    SCA-ism to take the heraldic posture of one creature and apply it to
                                    something else (hence things like "a frog rampant"), and it would be
                                    useful to know more about period practice before making a final
                                    decision. I know of no reason why a goose rousant would not be
                                    registerable in the SCA, but I simply don't have enough data at the
                                    moment to tell you whether it would be authentic. Other than that, I
                                    see no technical problems with the design. (I can't comment on
                                    possible conflict issues at the moment.)


                                    >And if I have all that right, I am going to try to
                                    >puzzle out for myself how to blazon it in Welsh (using
                                    >the article in Y Camamseriad) before asking for help
                                    >on that.

                                    <grin> When you have a stab at it, feel free to run it by me! I
                                    love getting feedback about how well the article works for people.

                                    Tangwystyl
                                    --
                                    *****
                                    Heather Rose Jones
                                    hrjones@...
                                    *****
                                  • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                    Who (and more particularly when) was Gilbert of Hoyt? In Sermones in Canticum Solomonis , he writes: The breasts are most pleasing when they are of moderate
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 4, 2004
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                                      Who (and more particularly when) was Gilbert of Hoyt?
                                      In "Sermones in Canticum Solomonis", he writes:

                                      "The breasts are most pleasing when they are of
                                      moderate size and eminence...They should be bound but
                                      not flattened, restrained with gentleness but not
                                      given too much license."

                                      That gives us, I believe, three textual references and
                                      one pre-medieval picture?

                                      Andrea/Gwervyl



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                                    • Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
                                      ... Gilbert of Hoyland, d 1172 was writing sermons about breasts, I wonder if this is the same person. Certainly breast binding as a fashion seems to be a
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 8, 2004
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                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                        <huwydd@y...> wrote:
                                        > Who (and more particularly when) was Gilbert of Hoyt?
                                        > In "Sermones in Canticum Solomonis", he writes:

                                        Gilbert of Hoyland, d 1172 was writing sermons about breasts, I wonder
                                        if this is the same person. Certainly breast binding as a fashion
                                        seems to be a phenomenon of this period (due to closer fitting
                                        clothing for nobles).

                                        The sermons you speak of, did you find an online copy? Or a
                                        particularly well written modern translation?

                                        Teffania
                                      • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                        ... It appears so, since I doubt two Gilberts with similar surnames were both writing sermons on the Song of Songs. Certainly breast ... Hmmm....have you found
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 9, 2004
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                                          --- Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
                                          <tbro3@...> wrote:


                                          >
                                          > Gilbert of Hoyland, d 1172 was writing sermons about
                                          > breasts, I wonder
                                          > if this is the same person.

                                          It appears so, since I doubt two Gilberts with similar
                                          surnames were both writing sermons on the Song of
                                          Songs.


                                          Certainly breast
                                          > binding as a fashion
                                          > seems to be a phenomenon of this period (due to
                                          > closer fitting
                                          > clothing for nobles).

                                          Hmmm....have you found anything suggesting that
                                          breastbinding was a novel or unaccustomed fashion, or
                                          is it just that we find definite evidence in this time
                                          period? I tend to believe, putting Gilbert's
                                          references together with the 8th cent Lombardic
                                          reference, breast binding was common throughout the
                                          medieval period - certainly Lombardic fashions were
                                          not particularly fitted to the body, were they? But I
                                          would welcome any evidence or indications to the
                                          contrary.


                                          >
                                          > The sermons you speak of, did you find an online
                                          > copy? Or a
                                          > particularly well written modern translation?

                                          Don't I wish. No, actually it was just that passage,
                                          quoted in Umberto Eco's Art and Beauty in the Middle
                                          Ages. (An enthralling read, btw. Heavy going in
                                          places, but a worthwhile contirbution to my quest to
                                          "learn the way the creatures think".) I console myself
                                          for all the books I can't find, can't afford, or don't
                                          have the time to read, by considering how medieval it
                                          is for most of one's learning to be snippets and
                                          nibbles quoted in other works.

                                          Gwervyl/Andrea



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                                        • Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
                                          ... I was reading the article: Waugh, Christina Frieder. Well-Cut through the Body: Fitted Clothing in Twelfth-Century Europe, Dress (volume 26) 1999. It
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 9, 2004
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                                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                            <huwydd@y...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            > Certainly breast
                                            > > binding as a fashion
                                            > > seems to be a phenomenon of this period (due to
                                            > > closer fitting
                                            > > clothing for nobles).
                                            >
                                            > Hmmm....have you found anything suggesting that
                                            > breastbinding was a novel or unaccustomed fashion, or
                                            > is it just that we find definite evidence in this time
                                            > period? I tend to believe, putting Gilbert's
                                            > references together with the 8th cent Lombardic
                                            > reference, breast binding was common throughout the
                                            > medieval period - certainly Lombardic fashions were
                                            > not particularly fitted to the body, were they? But I
                                            > would welcome any evidence or indications to the
                                            > contrary.

                                            I was reading the article:
                                            Waugh, Christina Frieder. "Well-Cut through the Body: "Fitted Clothing
                                            in Twelfth-Century Europe, Dress (volume 26) 1999.

                                            It discusses the context of breast binding with 12thC fashion. I'm
                                            inclined to give her arguments weight. Now that doesn't mean breast
                                            binding wasn't happening before, just that suddenly it was a
                                            desireable thing to do, not for practicality, but to achieve the
                                            fashionable look. So you'd expect an increase in the number of large
                                            breasted women binding. (small firm breasted women already had the
                                            desired shape, so why bother?). I've also noticed that 12thC artwork
                                            depicts breast unnaturally or at least optomistically high, especially
                                            on those who are dressed very fashionably. Before I've thought it was
                                            poor artwork, but perhaps instead it is an exageration of the desired
                                            shape, and thus a good reason to bind even slightly saggy breasts.

                                            Anyway, fashions often spring from somewhere, so perhaps we consider
                                            that some women bound breasts before the 12thC for practicality, but
                                            for most moderate breasted women found it more bother than comfort.
                                            But in the 12th C, suddenly those moderate breasted women started
                                            doing what they saw their cousins doing when dresssing up fancy
                                            because they suddenly felt to big for the fashion. It's just
                                            supposition, unfortunately.

                                            Teffania
                                            p.s. Gilbert of Hoyland is quoted in the above article, but a
                                            differnt translation is given . Also a quote about desired breast
                                            shape being "small hard apples". I think court fashions were going
                                            through a bit of an androgenous phase. (There were clear differnces
                                            between the clothing of male and female, they were just only clear to
                                            the initiated - the male fashion looked feminine to clerics and
                                            earlier of later periods)
                                          • Andrea Luxenburg
                                            I found a lovely page http://members.regia.org/dyes.htm which gives the color numbers, Paterna and DMC, for period dyes.  Wonderful!  I was all ready to rush
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 3, 2011
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                                              I found a lovely page

                                              http://members.regia.org/dyes.htm

                                              which gives the color numbers, Paterna and DMC, for period dyes.  Wonderful!  I was all ready to rush down to my local craft store and lay in a stock of the threads for comparison, but looked online to see if there were a color chart there.  Indeed!  However, the DMC colors only go as high as 5286.  The numbers on the Regia chart all are in the 7000 range.

                                              Can someone untangle me this riddle?

                                              Thank you.

                                              Fflur verch hywel gwyddwyllt


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Diane Sawyer Dooley
                                              Which of DMC s products are you looking at?  Because on the DMC website (http://www.dmc-usa.com), the Tapestry Wool certainly does have colors in the 7000
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 3, 2011
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                                                Which of DMC's products are you looking at?  Because on the DMC website (http://www.dmc-usa.com), the Tapestry Wool certainly does have colors in the 7000 range, which is likely what Regia, being authenticity nuts, would use, rather than DMC cotton floss (especially since Paterna also seems to be a wool thread).

                                                Tasha




                                                >________________________________
                                                > From: Andrea Luxenburg <huwydd@...>
                                                >To: "Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com" <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                                                >Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 2:56 PM
                                                >Subject: [Authentic_SCA] DMC color conumdrum
                                                >
                                                >

                                                >
                                                >
                                                >I found a lovely page
                                                >
                                                >http://members.regia.org/dyes.htm
                                                >
                                                >which gives the color numbers, Paterna and DMC, for period dyes.  Wonderful!  I was all ready to rush down to my local craft store and lay in a stock of the threads for comparison, but looked online to see if there were a color chart there.  Indeed!  However, the DMC colors only go as high as 5286.  The numbers on the Regia chart all are in the 7000 range.
                                                >
                                                >Can someone untangle me this riddle?
                                                >
                                                >Thank you.
                                                >
                                                >Fflur verch hywel gwyddwyllt
                                                >
                                                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Andrea Luxenburg
                                                That would be the problem, then.  Looking under the embroidery thread, I couldn t find the wools. Thank you so much ________________________________ From:
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Dec 3, 2011
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                                                  That would be the problem, then.  Looking under the embroidery thread, I couldn't find the wools.

                                                  Thank you so much



                                                  ________________________________
                                                  From: Diane Sawyer Dooley <tasha_medvedeva@...>
                                                  To: "Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com" <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:30 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] DMC color conumdrum


                                                   
                                                  Which of DMC's products are you looking at?  Because on the DMC website (http://www.dmc-usa.com), the Tapestry Wool certainly does have colors in the 7000 range, which is likely what Regia, being authenticity nuts, would use, rather than DMC cotton floss (especially since Paterna also seems to be a wool thread).

                                                  Tasha

                                                  >________________________________
                                                  > From: Andrea Luxenburg <huwydd@...>
                                                  >To: "Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com" <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  >Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 2:56 PM
                                                  >Subject: [Authentic_SCA] DMC color conumdrum
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >I found a lovely page
                                                  >
                                                  >http://members.regia.org/dyes.htm
                                                  >
                                                  >which gives the color numbers, Paterna and DMC, for period dyes.  Wonderful!  I was all ready to rush down to my local craft store and lay in a stock of the threads for comparison, but looked online to see if there were a color chart there.  Indeed!  However, the DMC colors only go as high as 5286.  The numbers on the Regia chart all are in the 7000 range.
                                                  >
                                                  >Can someone untangle me this riddle?
                                                  >
                                                  >Thank you.
                                                  >
                                                  >Fflur verch hywel gwyddwyllt
                                                  >
                                                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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