Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Tudor bonnet question

Expand Messages
  • Christina L Biles
    I am in the midst of a new outfit for a friend for his vigil. I have most of it under control, but the hat has me puzzled. Here we have old Henry:
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 4, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      I am in the midst of a new outfit for a friend for his vigil. I have
      most of it under control, but the hat has me puzzled.

      Here we have old Henry:
      http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/h/holbein/hans_y/1535h/01henry8.jpg
      http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Henry8.jpg
      http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walker/exhibitions/henry/holbeinslegacy.asp

      From what I've read and been told, this hat is a variation on a flat cap.
      Can anyone tell me more about the construction? Specifically, the hat
      brim seems to have an upwards sweep that my flat caps lack. They are,
      well, flat. Is this a shaping issue, or is there a fundamental difference
      in construction? (I know how flat caps are made, I'm looking for what
      changes the silhouette to a halo bonnet.)

      -Magdalena
    • Ro
      okay, based on mild researching of Elizabethan/Tudor headwear, I d hazard a guess that the interior of the hats is buckram, wetted and let to dry in a form
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 4, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        okay, based on mild researching of Elizabethan/Tudor headwear, I'd hazard a
        guess that the interior of the hats is buckram, wetted and let to dry in a
        form (between 2 books?) to achieve that upward flip.

        The lady to ask is Cynthia Virtue (www.virtue.to.com) - the twins are no
        longer so all consuming of time and I have seen posts from her lately on the
        Rialto (and elsewhere, but I cannot remember where right now), or possibly
        Lynn Casters.

        You might also post this on the Rialto - you may get additional good
        answers.

        Ro

        http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Ro
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Christina L Biles" <bilescl@...>
        To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:03 PM
        Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Tudor bonnet question


        > I am in the midst of a new outfit for a friend for his vigil. I have
        > most of it under control, but the hat has me puzzled.
        >
        > Here we have old Henry:
        > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/h/holbein/hans_y/1535h/01henry8.jpg
        > http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Henry8.jpg
        >
        http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walker/exhibitions/henry/holbeinslegacy.asp
        >
        > From what I've read and been told, this hat is a variation on a flat cap.
        > Can anyone tell me more about the construction? Specifically, the hat
        > brim seems to have an upwards sweep that my flat caps lack. They are,
        > well, flat. Is this a shaping issue, or is there a fundamental difference
        > in construction? (I know how flat caps are made, I'm looking for what
        > changes the silhouette to a halo bonnet.)
        >
        > -Magdalena
      • Marc Carlson
        ... Not having done even a smidgen of research on this, other than looking at these pictures, have you tried taking a general flatcap design, stiffen the brim
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 4, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Christina L Biles <bilescl@o...>
          wrote:
          > I am in the midst of a new outfit for a friend for his vigil. I
          > have most of it under control, but the hat has me puzzled.
          > ...

          Not having done even a smidgen of research on this, other than looking
          at these pictures, have you tried taking a general flatcap design,
          stiffen the brim with cardboard or something like it, and then pinning
          that to the underside of the cap portion all the way around, and when
          you put on the subject, sticking it on the back half of his head?

          Marc/Diarmaid
        • Lady_Lark_Azure
          ... flat cap. ... hat ... If you take a pie shaped cut out of the brim it will make it flip up like that. If you take a flat cap you have and pinch a dart
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 4, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            > From what I've read and been told, this hat is a variation on a
            flat cap.
            > Can anyone tell me more about the construction? Specifically, the
            hat
            > brim seems to have an upwards sweep that my flat caps lack.

            If you take a pie shaped cut out of the brim it will make it flip up
            like that. If you take a flat cap you have and pinch a dart into it
            with the point to the inside you'll see what I mean.

            Isabeau
          • aheilvei
            ... looking at these pictures, have you tried taking a general flatcap design, stiffen the brim with cardboard or something like it, and then pinning that to
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 4, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              > Not having done even a smidgen of research on this, other than
              looking at these pictures, have you tried taking a general flatcap
              design, stiffen the brim with cardboard or something like it, and
              then pinning that to the underside of the cap portion all the way
              around, and when you put on the subject, sticking it on the back
              half of his head?
              >
              > Marc/Diarmaid

              I was thinking along similar lines, but using buckram. Period
              appropriate material for.. well, hat making. :^D If you're
              comfortable working with it, it's *the* thing to use as it will hold
              up better than other methods.

              That being said, my very large German hat with the feathers (TM) is
              made from a craft straw hat that I got for under $5. I cut off most
              of the crown of the hat, then made a 'pillowcase' for it from the
              fabric I liked. I then slid the hat into the 'pillowcase' and sewed
              it up. I also have a small German hat with feathers that was made
              this way. Keeping part of the crown (about half to three quarters
              of an inch) helps the hat to sit better on the head, IMO. It also
              helps the look, as your head isn't 'popping' up through the fabric
              and creating the look of 'you tossed a piece of fabric on your head'.

              The larger hat sits similarly to the one pictured here:
              http://www.tigtail.org/TVM/M_View/X1/e.Northern/cranach/M/cranach_cup
              id_complaining_to_venus.jpg
              My feathers are peacock on that hat though; my smaller hat has
              ostrich feathers on it.

              My small hat sits similarly to this one:
              http://phelan.ou.edu/anya/webpictures/Germanren/cranach_yr_anna.JPG
              You can see a photo of me wearing the smaller one in the photos
              section - folder 'Bogdan and Despina'. I'm wearing it with the
              Dorthea dress. I sewed a medallion onto the hat (as a hat badge)
              for the event and it worked wonderfully. If you choose the large
              view of this photo, it's easier to see where the hat lets off and
              the caul under it begins.

              Velvet hat with velvet caul under it means great velcro-type action
              that helps hold the hat on the head ( a strong gust of wind still
              carries it off though).

              Smiles,
              Despina
            • Christina L Biles
              ... like that. If you take a flat cap you have and pinch a dart into it with the point to the inside you ll see what I mean. So, are you talking about two
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 4, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Isabeau said:

                >>>If you take a pie shaped cut out of the brim it will make it flip up
                like that. If you take a flat cap you have and pinch a dart into it
                with the point to the inside you'll see what I mean.


                So, are you talking about two shaped pieces - 1/2 doughnuts with angled
                sides, or are you talking about a single dart?

                -Magdalena the confused but interested
              • Christina L Biles
                ... hazard a guess that the interior of the hats is buckram, wetted and let to dry in a form (between 2 books?) to achieve that upward flip. Actually, I
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 4, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Ro said:

                  >>>okay, based on mild researching of Elizabethan/Tudor headwear, I'd
                  hazard a
                  guess that the interior of the hats is buckram, wetted and let to dry in a
                  form (between 2 books?) to achieve that upward flip.

                  Actually, I haven't yet found any extant pieces from that era with a
                  buckram base. Do you know of any? If so - please share. Shaped felts,
                  yes definitely, but not buckram, is what I've seen. I'd love to be
                  convinced otherwise. Granted, I'm not nearly as concerned with period
                  techniques as I am with getting this done by next week, but I have issues
                  with buckram based hats as a period technique.


                  >>>The lady to ask is Cynthia Virtue (www.virtue.to.com) -

                  I'm planning to post to the SCA milliners list tonight when I get home.
                  Cynthia mostly seems to concentrate on 15th century back though.

                  -Magdalena
                • Lady_Lark_Azure
                  ... angled ... I figured if you had one that would be an easy visual. Let me try to explain better. Make a donut and cut a triangle out of it with the point
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 4, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > So, are you talking about two shaped pieces - 1/2 doughnuts with
                    angled
                    > sides, or are you talking about a single dart?
                    >
                    > -Magdalena the confused but interested

                    I figured if you had one that would be an easy visual.

                    Let me try to explain better. Make a donut and cut a triangle out of
                    it with the point towards the inside. Now match up the edges of the
                    cut in the donut (in a hat it will mean a seam up the back of the
                    brim--not a dart, that was a bad way to explain it). It will
                    automatically pull up the outside edge of the brim. Make sense? If
                    not, email me offlist and I'll draw & scan what I mean.

                    Isabeau
                  • Ro
                    if i can find them again, I will. It s been 2 years since I had the time/energy to do any research at all (which is why Ro has one - count em ONE - linen
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 4, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      if i can find them again, I will. It's been 2 years since I had the
                      time/energy to do any research at all (which is why Ro has one - count 'em
                      ONE - linen chemise and the rest of her wardrobe except for a couple of
                      pieces is all pretty 'new gal in town').

                      http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Ro
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Christina L Biles" <bilescl@...>
                      To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 3:53 PM
                      Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Tudor bonnet question


                      > Ro said:
                      >
                      > >>>okay, based on mild researching of Elizabethan/Tudor headwear, I'd
                      > hazard a
                      > guess that the interior of the hats is buckram, wetted and let to dry in a
                      > form (between 2 books?) to achieve that upward flip.
                      >
                      > Actually, I haven't yet found any extant pieces from that era with a
                      > buckram base. Do you know of any? If so - please share. Shaped felts,
                      > yes definitely, but not buckram, is what I've seen. I'd love to be
                      > convinced otherwise. Granted, I'm not nearly as concerned with period
                      > techniques as I am with getting this done by next week, but I have issues
                      > with buckram based hats as a period technique.
                      >
                      >
                      > >>>The lady to ask is Cynthia Virtue (www.virtue.to.com) -
                      >
                      > I'm planning to post to the SCA milliners list tonight when I get home.
                      > Cynthia mostly seems to concentrate on 15th century back though.
                      >
                      > -Magdalena
                      >
                      >
                      > ----------------------------------------------------
                      > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Mary Taran
                      ... There are pictures, sorry no links available, of the little notches being linked together with golden latches . I really think this is the way they did
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 4, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        At 01:43 PM 3/4/04, you wrote:

                        > > So, are you talking about two shaped pieces - 1/2 doughnuts with
                        >angled
                        > > sides, or are you talking about a single dart?
                        > >
                        > > -Magdalena the confused but interested
                        >
                        >I figured if you had one that would be an easy visual.
                        >
                        >Let me try to explain better. Make a donut and cut a triangle out of
                        >it with the point towards the inside. Now match up the edges of the
                        >cut in the donut (in a hat it will mean a seam up the back of the
                        >brim--not a dart, that was a bad way to explain it). It will
                        >automatically pull up the outside edge of the brim. Make sense? If
                        >not, email me offlist and I'll draw & scan what I mean.
                        >
                        >Isabeau

                        There are pictures, sorry no links available, of the little notches being
                        linked together with golden "latches". I really think this is the way they
                        did it.

                        Mary Taran

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Marc Carlson
                        ... I know, I just went with cardboard as a quick example, since I knew Maggie was in a hurry on this project, needing to dress a fetal peer in less than two
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 5, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
                          >> around, and when you put on the subject, sticking it on the back
                          >> half of his head?
                          > I was thinking along similar lines, but using buckram. Period
                          > appropriate material for.. well, hat making. :^D If you're
                          > comfortable working with it, it's *the* thing to use as it will hold
                          > up better than other methods.

                          I know, I just went with cardboard as a quick example, since I knew
                          Maggie was in a hurry on this project, needing to dress a fetal peer
                          in less than two weeks (in such circumstances I'll happily suggest
                          glue guns and fabric paint :) ).

                          Marc/Diarmaid
                        • Lady_Lark_Azure
                          (in such circumstances I ll happily suggest ... I had 10 days of notice when a friend got a laurel and I had always told his wife (a non-sewer) that I would
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 5, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            (in such circumstances I'll happily suggest
                            > glue guns and fabric paint :) ).

                            I had 10 days of notice when a friend got a laurel and I had always
                            told his wife (a non-sewer) that I would make his cloak. Thankfully
                            for his persona a hood was most appropriate. In spite of the time
                            constraint, it is the only completely hand-sewn garment I've ever
                            made--and I slept REALLY well the night after that event!

                            Isabeau
                          • Willow Polson
                            ... Hey now, that gets me thinking.... any period examples of fabric painting? If so, what are they and how were they made?
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 5, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              At 03:41 PM 3/5/2004 +0000, you wrote:
                              > (in such circumstances I'll happily suggest
                              >glue guns and fabric paint :) ).

                              Hey now, that gets me thinking.... any period examples of fabric painting?
                              If so, what are they and how were they made?


                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              Rev. Willow Polson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            • wodeford
                              ... painting? ... Rats! There WAS an article on painted and steyned cloth on the net and the link appears to have gone bye bye. Jehanne
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 5, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Willow Polson <willow@c...>
                                wrote:
                                > At 03:41 PM 3/5/2004 +0000, you wrote:
                                > > (in such circumstances I'll happily suggest
                                > >glue guns and fabric paint :) ).
                                >
                                > Hey now, that gets me thinking.... any period examples of fabric
                                painting?
                                > If so, what are they and how were they made?

                                Rats! There WAS an article on painted and "steyned" cloth on the 'net
                                and the link appears to have gone bye bye.

                                Jehanne
                              • Dianne & Greg Stucki
                                I m pretty sure I have that article saved. Let me do some digging... Laurensa ... From: wodeford To:
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 5, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I'm pretty sure I have that article saved. Let me do some digging...

                                  Laurensa
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "wodeford" <wodeford@...>
                                  To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 1:16 PM
                                  Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Fabric Painting


                                  > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Willow Polson <willow@c...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > At 03:41 PM 3/5/2004 +0000, you wrote:
                                  > > > (in such circumstances I'll happily suggest
                                  > > >glue guns and fabric paint :) ).
                                  > >
                                  > > Hey now, that gets me thinking.... any period examples of fabric
                                  > painting?
                                  > > If so, what are they and how were they made?
                                  >
                                  > Rats! There WAS an article on painted and "steyned" cloth on the 'net
                                  > and the link appears to have gone bye bye.
                                  >
                                  > Jehanne
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----------------------------------------------------
                                  > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Marc Carlson
                                  ... I m sure. And under normal circumstances I would be suggesting only authentic means and materials. OTOH, I know that I tend to function really well under
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 5, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Lady_Lark_Azure"
                                    <jenniferanne21@n...> wrote:
                                    >>(in such circumstances I'll happily suggest
                                    >> glue guns and fabric paint :) ).
                                    > I had 10 days of notice when a friend got a laurel and I had always
                                    > told his wife (a non-sewer) that I would make his cloak. Thankfully
                                    > for his persona a hood was most appropriate. In spite of the time
                                    > constraint, it is the only completely hand-sewn garment I've ever
                                    > made--and I slept REALLY well the night after that event!

                                    I'm sure. And under normal circumstances I would be suggesting only
                                    authentic means and materials. OTOH, I know that I tend to function
                                    really well under the gun, as it were (although I get seriously
                                    unpleasant to be around :) ), but not as well as I used to. I also
                                    know that others don't do as well in general with short deadlines (I
                                    don't know if Maggie does or not), and so am fairly understanding
                                    about such things.

                                    I cant help but wonder if it doesn't also have something to do with
                                    the fact that I consider a lot of court ceremonies to be more akin to
                                    stage performances, instead of situations where "real" clothes are
                                    needed. My gut feeling is that cutting corners and cheating in order
                                    to make something look good from a distance is in fact "Period" :)

                                    Marc/Diarmaid
                                  • Jan C. Lane
                                    in such circumstances I ll happily suggest glue guns and fabric paint :) There are three of us girls in my family. When my middle sister got married
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 6, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      "in such circumstances I'll happily suggest glue guns and fabric paint :)"

                                      There are three of us girls in my family. When my middle sister got married
                                      (Medieval theme using Period Patterns #21 pattern for Cotehardies), my baby
                                      sister waited until she got to Virginia to start her dress. (She lived in
                                      Georgia at the time.) We put the zipper in with a hot glue gun, and she
                                      used iron-on transfers and fabric paint to decorate her dress. The bride
                                      was a Size 10 and the bridesmaids were Size 6's, so that's how I ended up
                                      with Period Patterns #41 pattern for Italian Ren. At a Size 14, I knew I'd
                                      look like a sausage compared to those more slender girls, so I chose to wear
                                      a different pattern.

                                      Jannifer
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.