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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: literacy - how common

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  • Laura C. Minnick
    ... University of Wisconsin Press, ISBN -0-299-00854-1 ... Noblewoman? Possible. I don t know about translations of French romances, but the French had
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 1, 2004
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      At 10:36 AM 2/1/2004, you wrote:
      > >
      > > If your person is 13th century, have a read of
      > > Holmes's "Daily living
      > > in the 12th century".
      >
      >Sounds a good book for many reasons. Got a publisher
      >or ISBN handy?

      University of Wisconsin Press, ISBN -0-299-00854-1

      >Can anyone ( I'm thinking Tangwystl, but I don't know
      >who else has Welsh interests) clarify whether this
      >would be the same case in Wales ca. 1250-1275? Would
      >a Welsh noblewoman speak/read any French (barring
      >Norman relatives/connections), or would it be fairly
      >easy to find Welsh translations of French romances?

      Noblewoman? Possible.
      I don't know about translations of French romances, but the French had
      translations of Welsh ones!

      > > Also he suggests that basic litteracy might not be
      > > as good as it
      > > sounds - books were read slowly, and often aloud
      > > even when alone.
      >
      >But then, much medieval literature *does* read better
      >aloud. Mostly, I would like to be able to read
      >Mabinogion or Roman de la Rose aloud to a sewing
      >circle at events, and I really want my own psalter to
      >read my prayers from, which is sort of pointless if I
      >couldn't read.

      Roman de la Rose is later than the time period you mentioned. Arthurian
      romances (Cretien, etc) would be more appropriate, especially since the
      Arthurian legends have Welsh roots.

      'Lainie, who is deep into 12th c stuff at the moment...
      ___________________________________________________________________________
      "Any idiot can face a crisis; it is this day-to-day living that wears you
      out."-Anton Chekov



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
      ... Thanks. ... Good for them! The French-influenced romances in the Mabinogion would suggest there were Welsh translations of the French ones, but bilingual
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 1, 2004
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        --- "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm@...> wrote:
        >
        > > > Holmes's "Daily living
        > > > in the 12th century".

        >
        > University of Wisconsin Press, ISBN -0-299-00854-1

        Thanks.

        >
        > Noblewoman? Possible.
        > I don't know about translations of French romances,
        > but the French had
        > translations of Welsh ones!

        Good for them! The French-influenced romances in the
        Mabinogion would suggest there were Welsh translations
        of the French ones, but bilingual authors are another
        possibility - and perhaps they were too busy writing
        their own versions to translate the originals. I
        suspect that if Gweyrvyl does not read French, her
        priest (who sees the value of secular literature)
        does.

        >
        > Roman de la Rose is later than the time period you
        > mentioned.

        1250-1275? I read that the first part of Rose was
        written about 1230, and Meun finished it forty years
        later.

        Gweyrvyl

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      • Laura C. Minnick
        ... If she is indeed well-educated, one could conjecture that she is more likely to be able to read French than English. :-) ... My mistake- it is thought to
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 1, 2004
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          At 04:15 PM 2/1/2004, you wrote:

          > > I don't know about translations of French romances,
          > > but the French had
          > > translations of Welsh ones!
          >
          >Good for them! The French-influenced romances in the
          >Mabinogion would suggest there were Welsh translations
          >of the French ones, but bilingual authors are another
          >possibility - and perhaps they were too busy writing
          >their own versions to translate the originals. I
          >suspect that if Gweyrvyl does not read French, her
          >priest (who sees the value of secular literature)
          >does.

          If she is indeed well-educated, one could conjecture that she is more
          likely to be able to read French than English. :-)

          > >
          > > Roman de la Rose is later than the time period you
          > > mentioned.
          >
          >1250-1275? I read that the first part of Rose was
          >written about 1230, and Meun finished it forty years
          >later.

          My mistake- it is thought to have been finished around c1280 (the ones with
          the cool pictures are 14th-15th c, and that is what sticks in my head. Bad
          'Lainie). However, how likely is it that it would be available to a Welsh
          woman immediately after release? And if she does not read French (as above)
          she will have to wait... parts of it were translated into Middle English by
          Chaucer, but I know of no translations into Welsh, though apparently Dafydd
          ap Gwilym (1320-70) was known to emulate the poetry- to what extent and if
          he did any translation work, I don't know.

          'Lainie
          ___________________________________________________________________________
          "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president ... right or
          wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to
          the American public." -- Teddy Roosevelt, 1918

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Heather Rose Jones
          ... On a lot of this, particularly in the specifics, I don t know -- or I might have to do some fairly deep digging to have an educated guess. From the
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 1, 2004
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            At 10:36 AM -0800 2/1/04, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg wrote:
            >--- Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
            ><tbro3@...> wrote:
            >



            > > litteracy was very uncommon
            >> litteracy was pretty common amoungst the nobility
            >> (the nobility being
            >> only a small fraction of the population)
            >> basic literacy of noble girls (read latin and
            >> french/anglo-french) was
            >> taught as a child, often in the same classes as the
            >> boys.
            >> After this basic literacy training, girls would go
            >> off to relatives to
            >> be basically ladies in waiting, learning
            >> needlecrafts, domestic chores
            >> for their social level, etc
            >
            >Can anyone ( I'm thinking Tangwystl, but I don't know
            >who else has Welsh interests) clarify whether this
            >would be the same case in Wales ca. 1250-1275? Would
            >a Welsh noblewoman speak/read any French (barring
            >Norman relatives/connections), or would it be fairly
            >easy to find Welsh translations of French romances?

            On a lot of this, particularly in the specifics, "I don't know" -- or
            I might have to do some fairly deep digging to have an educated
            guess. From the available clues, girls seem a little less likely
            than boys to have been placed out in fosterage -- or at least there's
            less direct evidence for it. On the other hand, in the laws (for
            which it can be tricky to figure out which parts were still "living
            law" at any given time, and which were archaic holdovers) there are
            provisions discussed for the legal status of unmarried women who get
            pregnant while serving as hostages -- the flip side of fosterage --
            so perhaps the fosterage evidence simply has holes in it. It's a
            somewhat different paradigm from the English one, so I hate to say
            simply "yes" or "no", but it isn't a topic where I feel comfortable
            speaking confidently.

            The surviving manuscripts of Welsh secular literature give every
            appearance of having been compiled in secular contexts for everyday
            use. And while much is made of the origins of many of the stories in
            oral tradition (and of the importance of memorized recitation in
            poetic contexts), on the other hand you have the postscript to the
            tale of Rhonabwy (clearly a composed, rather than a traditional,
            tale) that rather sarcastically notes that "no one can know this
            story without a book, because of all the complex descriptions in it".
            So, on the one hand, it suggests that recited, rather than read,
            performance held some pride of place, but that read performance was
            in some cases expected.

            French literature was clearly extremely familiar to the Welsh
            storytellers (or story writers) of this era. Not only are several of
            the well-known Welsh Arthurian tales clearly adapted from French
            versions, but there are Welsh retellings of originally French
            material such as the story of Roland. This doesn't necessarily mean
            that everyone in the nobility was bilingual, but it means there was
            enough familiarity with the material that people thought it was worth
            translating. There was a _lot_ of intermarriage between the Welsh
            and Anglo-Norman nobility in the first couple centuries after the
            conquest, and a certain level of functional multi-lingualism can be
            postulated in such families.

            There's a great collection of articles on this general topic
            published under a self-explanatory titile:

            Pryce, Huw ed.. 1998. Literacy in Medieval Celtic Societies.
            Cambridge Univ Press, Cambridge. ISBN 0-521-5739-5

            Tangwystyl
            --
            *****
            Heather Rose Jones
            hrjones@...
            *****
          • Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
            ... Actually I was being really boring - My mundane name is Tiffany, and I knew a lot of the local s I d play sca with knew me socially as Tiffany, so (knowing
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 2, 2004
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
              <huwydd@y...> wrote:
              > > Teffania, litterate 12th C lady
              >
              > Your name, btw, is one of those which fascinate me by
              > being period while sounding strictly modern. Were you
              > named for the Feast?
              >
              > Diolch iti,
              > Gweyrvyl

              Actually I was being really boring - My mundane name is Tiffany, and I
              knew a lot of the local's I'd play sca with knew me socially as
              Tiffany, so (knowing it was already a period name) I thought a small
              change was better. So I looked for a pleasing variant that went as
              close to 12th century england as possible. At worst I'm 50 years out
              (ie 12th C france, but very late 12th C england) , and with the
              scarcity of paperwork around 1150 I'm fairly happy with that (besides
              I'll play later in that period sometimes too). If it had been period
              only for the 14th C, then I would have had to choose something else.
              For the surname I chose Tuckerton - a nice small english town, with a
              wonderful variety of spellings, which I plan to randomly alternate
              between on non-legal doccuments :-)

              All I know about the meaning of the name, is that it is (supposedly)
              named after the epithany, which i suppose is what you mean by the
              feast. I think the book had a note that the name was not always used
              in relation to time of birth, but I'd actually be quite happy to have
              Teffania born at a differnt time to me, especially since I've decided
              she's younger than me -she's a bit old to be unmarried, but if she was
              as old as me (a shocking 25 ;) ), she'd have given up dressing like an
              unmarried girl, I guess.

              Anyway, If you know more about the epithany in a 10th -14th C context,
              I'd really love to hear more, since I'm really ignroant on this
              important aspect of Teffania's life.

              cya,
              Tiffany (who keeps Teffania in fine clothes and supplies her materials
              to weave and embroider with)
            • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
              ... Tiffany or Teffania is the English version of Theophany, the alternate name for Epiphany. -she s a bit old to be ... When I first started playing, I was my
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 3, 2004
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                --- Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
                <tbro3@...> wrote:

                >
                > All I know about the meaning of the name, is that it
                > is (supposedly)
                > named after the epithany, which i suppose is what
                > you mean by the
                > feast.

                Tiffany or Teffania is the English version of
                Theophany, the alternate name for Epiphany.

                -she's a bit old to be
                > unmarried, but if she was
                > as old as me (a shocking 25 ;) ), she'd have given
                > up dressing like an
                > unmarried girl, I guess.

                When I first started playing, I was my daughter's
                grandmother, because I was kind of old to be her
                mother in period. Besides, she wanted to be Robin
                Hood's daughter, and I felt freer being Robin's
                mother-in-law than Maid Marian, no matter how I
                renamed myself. (I knew better, but she never claimed
                officially to be RH's daughter, just in her
                imagination.)
                >
                > Anyway, If you know more about the epithany in a
                > 10th -14th C context,
                > I'd really love to hear more,

                You probably already know it's the celebration of the
                visit of the Magi to the Infant Jesus, His Baptism,
                and the first miracle at Cana. Beyond that, most of
                what I know is earlier, later, or farther east, and I
                wouldn't be sure of the relevance. Can you get ahold
                of a copy of the Golden Legend? There's a whole
                section in there about Epiphany. If you can't I'll
                try to post a few excerpts.

                There's also a Byzantine princess (probably several,
                actually) by the name of Theophano, who married the
                Holy Roman Emperor. If you read historical fiction,
                look for The Eagle's Daughter, by Judith Tarr.

                Iechydd da,
                Gweryrvyl

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              • Wanda Pease
                When in Normandy we visited Mont San Michelle we stopped at the museum of Bernard du Guesclin, in the Hotel du Gesclin. I noticed that his wife was named
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 5, 2004
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                  When in Normandy we visited Mont San Michelle we stopped at the museum of
                  Bernard du Guesclin, in the Hotel du Gesclin. I noticed that his wife was
                  named Tiphaine Raguenel, and was a Breton noblewoman. Du Guesclin was born
                  in 1320 and dies in 1380. Brittany, Normandy, and England had a lot of
                  contacts at this time. Particularly since the English were being driven out
                  of France at that time... by du Guesclin.

                  Regina Romsey
                  >
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