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Italian Camicia info (lord it's quiet out there)

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  • katherinejsanders
    Hey all *wave* I m trying you guys because you ve not failed me yet :-) I ve posted a detail from a 14C fresco by Andrea di Firenze and thought that I would
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 28, 2004
      Hey all *wave*
      I'm trying you guys because you've not failed me yet :-)
      I've posted a detail from a 14C fresco by Andrea di Firenze and
      thought that I would make a generic dress from this image perhaps
      before tackling the more complex (and beautiful) 15/16C ensemble.

      Has anyone tackled this? I'm not exactly boyish like these girls so
      perhaps the later stuff would be better... Any info would be great
      though.

      The beautiful linen I had set aside for my 14C linen shift might not
      be thin enough to do the quite modest 'poofing' through sleeves of
      the later 'camicia' (see the other photo 'portrait of a lady' by
      Ghirlandaio). It's certainly not 'handkerchief weight' (well, maybe
      the same as my old grandfather's hankies!)
      *runs away to look at it*
      Okay, I got it out of the box and it's probably light summer 'dress'
      weight, although I'd wear a slip under it. Hmm. Anyone tried making a
      camicia with a slightly denser linen? I'm /probably/ looking at a
      lower middle-class persona so maybe that would be more appropriate.

      OH! I keep forgetting to ask: are the camicia ankle lenght like
      shifts or calf-length? Do you wear a longer thing beneath it?? Can
      you tell I'm seriously into work-avoidance? :-)

      Katherine, who'd gotten way too used to the traffic volume on this
      here list.
    • Colleen McDonald
      ... Has anyone tackled this? I m not exactly boyish like these girls so ... I ve actually made a Florentine gonnella and camicia from the years
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 28, 2004
        > I've posted a detail from a 14C fresco by Andrea di Firenze and
        <snip> Has anyone tackled this? I'm not exactly boyish like these girls so
        > perhaps the later stuff would be better... Any info would be great
        > though.

        I've actually made a Florentine gonnella and camicia from the years
        1350-1365. What questions do you have?

        << Anyone tried making a camicia with a slightly denser linen? I'm
        /probably/ looking at a
        > lower middle-class persona so maybe that would be more appropriate.>>

        I would say for the 14th century stuff that as long as the linen is
        comfortable next to your skin and lays well under other fabrics that it
        would be fine. So far, I haven't found any details on the specific weight
        of the linen used, but you may want to look at MOL Textiles and Clothing and
        try to match to their thread counts if you can.

        > OH! I keep forgetting to ask: are the camicia ankle lenght like
        > shifts or calf-length? Do you wear a longer thing beneath it?? Can
        > you tell I'm seriously into work-avoidance? :-)>>

        Since we don't usually see the camicia at all (rarely, we see it at the
        wrists and the neckline), the length is not really known. I usually make
        mine knee-length.

        The camicia is the underwear layer that would be closest to the skin. I
        haven't found anything to suggest anything would go under that.

        In service, I remain

        Cainder
      • katherinejsanders
        Hello Cainder ... Loads! - The bodices look fitted but not with the same hoisting effect of the supporting cotehardies . - I can t see lacing holes either -
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 28, 2004
          Hello Cainder
          > I've actually made a Florentine gonnella and camicia from the years
          > 1350-1365. What questions do you have?
          Loads!
          - The bodices look fitted but not with the same 'hoisting' effect of
          the supporting 'cotehardies'.
          - I can't see lacing holes either - did you try under the arm? That
          seems popular even on the later models.
          -Is gonnella the florentine equivalent of 'cote'?
          -One of the figures in my photo seems to have a slit showing a
          different colour underneath - is she actually wearing two 'gonnella'?

          >I would say for the 14th century stuff that as long as the linen is
          > comfortable next to your skin and lays well under other fabrics
          that it
          > would be fine.
          I haven't tried it under other fabrics but I hope it'll be fine.
          > you may want to look at MOL Textiles and Clothing and
          > try to match to their thread counts if you can.
          That's great - I have that at home and will attempt that soon.

          Thanks for your assistance,
          Katherine
        • Colleen McDonald
          - The bodices look fitted but not with the same hoisting effect of ... You may want to look at images of Nardo di Cione s Last Judgment as well. The
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 28, 2004
            <<> - The bodices look fitted but not with the same 'hoisting' effect of
            > the supporting 'cotehardies'. >>

            You may want to look at images of Nardo di Cione's Last Judgment as well.
            The ladies in it have more 'endowments' with a similar style. My wool
            gonnella is very close fitting and supportive.

            <<> - I can't see lacing holes either - did you try under the arm? >>
            Mine is actually laced up the back. With back lacing, I have been able to
            get the same wrinkling that you can see on the lady in purple in Last
            Judgment.

            <<> -Is gonnella the florentine equivalent of 'cote'?>>

            The gonnella is a gown that would have been worn in the home by a noble lady
            or while in her neighborhood, informal situations. Another gown, a
            'guarnaca', would have been worn over the gonnella for more formal or more
            public occasions.

            > -One of the figures in my photo seems to have a slit showing a
            > different colour underneath - is she actually wearing two 'gonnella'?>>

            Good catch - it may be a guarnaca, or it could be something else entirely or
            just allegory. Since this painting is highly allegorical (The Church
            Triumphant is the title, I believe), I would suggest backing any unusual
            items up with further research.

            More good pictures are to be found in Rosita Levi-Pisetzky's _Storia del
            Costume in Italia_, a 5 volume work that covers Roman to the 18th century.
            The 1300's are covered in Volume 2. The text is in Italian, however, there
            are many pictures that I have not seen elsewhere.

            In service, I remain

            Cainder
          • katherinejsanders
            that was quick! ... wool ... That s a fantastic image! it even shows the back of their hair :-) Did you use a two (with back panel split) panel fit-n-pin
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 28, 2004
              that was quick!
              >Nardo di Cione's Last Judgment as well.
              > The ladies in it have more 'endowments' with a similar style. My
              wool
              > gonnella is very close fitting and supportive.
              That's a fantastic image! it even shows the back of their hair :-)
              Did you use a two (with back panel split) panel fit-n-pin method? I
              can't see gores in the skirt and it may be that the loom width at
              this point was wide enough to actually allow a more 'circular' cut
              skirt. Whaddya think?
              The bands at neck and wrist are different and intriguing: while the
              wrist is white (the camicia? there's no split sleeves with 'poofs' so
              it that much later?) the band around the neck is coloured on all
              gowns. Hmm. applied ribbon/t-w braid? What did you use - and more
              importantly do you have photos?

              > With back lacing, I have been able to
              > get the same wrinkling that you can see on the lady in purple in >
              Last Judgment.
              I've not done lacing yet: do you use metal rings (like on the later
              florentine dresses) or are we still on the handsewn ones pushed
              through wool?
              > <<> -Is gonnella the florentine equivalent of 'cote'?>>
              > Another gown, a
              > 'guarnaca', would have been worn over the gonnella for more formal
              or more
              > public occasions.
              Cool! I've not seen any 'guarnaca' although there are references to
              later 'giarnea'?? which appear to be only joined at the shoulder.

              > > -One of the figures in my photo seems to have a slit showing a
              > > different colour underneath - is she actually wearing
              two 'gonnella'?>>
              >
              > Good catch - it may be a guarnaca, or it could be something else
              entirely or
              > just allegory. Since this painting is highly allegorical (The
              Church
              > Triumphant is the title, I believe), I would suggest backing any
              unusual
              > items up with further research.
              We are singing from the same sheet - or should it be dancing to the
              same drum? I'm pretty wary of allegorical female figures...
              >
              >Rosita Levi-Pisetzky's _Storia del Costume in Italia_, a 5 volume
              >work that covers Roman to the 18th century.
              > The 1300's are covered in Volume 2.
              Cheers - that might be my uni library so i'll have a trawl. That's
              excellent.
              With much gratitude,
              Katherine
            • Karen Hall
              ... Jacqueline Herald s _Dress in Renaissance Italy 1400-1500_ (don t have the book with me so can t do any more bibliographic details) has an incredibly handy
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 28, 2004
                > > <<> -Is gonnella the florentine equivalent of 'cote'?>>
                > > Another gown, a
                > > 'guarnaca', would have been worn over the gonnella for more formal
                > or more
                > > public occasions.
                > Cool! I've not seen any 'guarnaca' although there are references to
                > later 'giarnea'?? which appear to be only joined at the shoulder.

                Jacqueline Herald's _Dress in Renaissance Italy 1400-1500_ (don't have the book
                with me so can't do any more bibliographic details) has an incredibly handy
                glossary in it, which covers the alternative names given to items of clothing.
                The same kind of item could be known by different names due to the range of
                Italian dialects or shifts in fashion.

                Alessandra
              • celtkin7
                ... I m wondering about linen weights too. I ordered my first linen -- some of the 3.5 oz. linen from fabrics-store.com. It arrived just the other day and I
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 29, 2004
                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "katherinejsanders"
                  <turtle_worm@b...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The beautiful linen I had set aside for my 14C linen shift might not
                  > be thin enough to do the quite modest 'poofing' through sleeves of
                  > the later 'camicia' (see the other photo 'portrait of a lady' by
                  > Ghirlandaio). It's certainly not 'handkerchief weight' (well, maybe
                  > the same as my old grandfather's hankies!)
                  > *runs away to look at it*
                  > Okay, I got it out of the box and it's probably light summer 'dress'
                  > weight, although I'd wear a slip under it. Hmm. Anyone tried making a
                  > camicia with a slightly denser linen? I'm /probably/ looking at a
                  > lower middle-class persona so maybe that would be more appropriate.


                  I'm wondering about linen weights too. I ordered my first linen --
                  some of the 3.5 oz. linen from fabrics-store.com. It arrived just the
                  other day and I found it to be much heavier than I anticipated. Is
                  there a linen out there there is lighter than this, for
                  camicias/hemds/chemises/veils, or am I doing well to try using this? I
                  am hoping that when I wash it once or twice it will lighten up. It is
                  a tad see-through, as the feedback on the store site indicated, but it
                  is still much heavier in my hand than I expected.

                  ~Gysela
                • Kirrily Robert
                  ... I don t know. I haven t been able to find anything lighter anywhere I ve looked, and I ve been looking pretty hard. Let me know if you find something!
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jan 29, 2004
                    Gysela wrote:
                    > I'm wondering about linen weights too. I ordered my first linen --
                    > some of the 3.5 oz. linen from fabrics-store.com. It arrived just the
                    > other day and I found it to be much heavier than I anticipated. Is
                    > there a linen out there there is lighter than this, for
                    > camicias/hemds/chemises/veils, or am I doing well to try using this? I
                    > am hoping that when I wash it once or twice it will lighten up. It is
                    > a tad see-through, as the feedback on the store site indicated, but it
                    > is still much heavier in my hand than I expected.

                    I don't know. I haven't been able to find anything lighter anywhere
                    I've looked, and I've been looking pretty hard. Let me know if you find
                    something!

                    Yours,

                    Katherine

                    --
                    Goodwife Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
                    katherine@... http://elizabethangeek.com/
                    Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
                    "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
                  • caitlin_oduibhir
                    ... have the book ... Someone has posted this glossary online: http://www.geocities.com/dakea/glossarytermsclass.htm hope this helps. Caitlin
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jan 29, 2004
                      > Jacqueline Herald's _Dress in Renaissance Italy 1400-1500_ (don't
                      have the book
                      > with me so can't do any more bibliographic details)

                      Someone has posted this glossary online:

                      http://www.geocities.com/dakea/glossarytermsclass.htm

                      hope this helps.

                      Caitlin
                    • caitlin_oduibhir
                      ... find ... Katherine, It IS possible to find lighter weight than handkerchief. I CAN find it, but it s outrageously expensive, and often has to be imported.
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jan 29, 2004
                        >
                        > I don't know. I haven't been able to find anything lighter anywhere
                        > I've looked, and I've been looking pretty hard. Let me know if you
                        find
                        > something!


                        Katherine,

                        It IS possible to find lighter weight than handkerchief. I CAN find
                        it, but it's outrageously expensive, and often has to be imported. Do
                        a search for linen voile or linen gauze. Watch for the voiles that
                        say they are linen - modern weaves are titled that, but are poly -
                        the name suggesting the weave and fibre looks like real linen. Quite
                        often you will find it listed with the hand stitching shops, used for
                        shadow work, madeira, very fine drawn thread work, and other delicate
                        needlecrafts. I can get cotton voile that is melt in your mouth both
                        plain and striped, I could ask my supplier if she knows where to find
                        linen voile of the same quality. She is a global shopper and has the
                        finest eye I have ever seen for quality. I can guarantee you a price
                        tag of $30+ CDN not including the government's part in the
                        transaction. But, if she puts her approval on it, I can be sure it'll
                        be value for your money.

                        Caitlin
                      • Kass McGann
                        ... the ... this? I ... It is ... but it ... find ... Try www.ulsterlinen.com. They don t really sell to the public, so there s a minimum order amout (25
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jan 29, 2004
                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Kirrily Robert <skud@i...>
                          wrote:
                          > Gysela wrote:
                          > > I'm wondering about linen weights too. I ordered my first linen --
                          > > some of the 3.5 oz. linen from fabrics-store.com. It arrived just
                          the
                          > > other day and I found it to be much heavier than I anticipated. Is
                          > > there a linen out there there is lighter than this, for
                          > > camicias/hemds/chemises/veils, or am I doing well to try using
                          this? I
                          > > am hoping that when I wash it once or twice it will lighten up.
                          It is
                          > > a tad see-through, as the feedback on the store site indicated,
                          but it
                          > > is still much heavier in my hand than I expected.
                          >
                          > I don't know. I haven't been able to find anything lighter anywhere
                          > I've looked, and I've been looking pretty hard. Let me know if you
                          find
                          > something!

                          Try www.ulsterlinen.com. They don't really sell to the public, so
                          there's a minimum order amout (25 yards I think) and a cutting charge
                          of $20 or so if you order less than that. And their prices are
                          significantly higher. But their linen is top quality stuff, mostly
                          from Ireland and Belgium, and their weights go as low as 2.8 oz.

                          I have some. You can read a magazine through it. =)

                          Kass
                        • celtkin7
                          I m wondering if maybe it s just the starch or something, whatever the finish is on linen when it comes to you prior to washing. I m totally new at this, first
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jan 29, 2004
                            I'm wondering if maybe it's just the starch or something, whatever the
                            finish is on linen when it comes to you prior to washing. I'm totally
                            new at this, first linen, first chemise... So maybe after washing
                            it'll be light. --or-- I wonder if maybe they sent the wrong thing?
                            But again, being new to it I won't know. I guess I'll just wash it and
                            sew and see what happens.

                            Which weights were actually used in period for something like a
                            pleatwork chemise?

                            ~Gysela

                            In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Kirrily Robert <skud@i...>
                            > wrote:

                            > > Gysela wrote:
                            > > > I'm wondering about linen weights too. I ordered my first linen --
                            > > > some of the 3.5 oz. linen from fabrics-store.com. I haven't been
                            able to find anything lighter anywhere

                            > > I've looked, and I've been looking pretty hard. Let me know if you
                            > find something!
                            >
                            > Try www.ulsterlinen.com. They don't really sell to the public, so
                            > there's a minimum order amout (25 yards I think) and a cutting charge
                            > of $20 or so if you order less than that. And their prices are
                            > significantly higher. But their linen is top quality stuff, mostly
                            > from Ireland and Belgium, and their weights go as low as 2.8 oz.
                            >
                            > I have some. You can read a magazine through it. =)
                            >
                            > Kass
                          • Lady_Lark_Azure
                            ... Did you contact Rainillt? I told her to expect an email. I think the 3.5 oz. should work. I can tell you now--pleating is a pain in the butt and you will
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jan 30, 2004
                              > Which weights were actually used in period for something like a
                              > pleatwork chemise?
                              >
                              > ~Gysela

                              Did you contact Rainillt? I told her to expect an email. I think
                              the 3.5 oz. should work.

                              I can tell you now--pleating is a pain in the butt and you will get
                              sick of doing a running stitch. Once that's done, however, the
                              embroidery work is fairly quick and really satisfying. I did a cuff
                              in a few hours. I'll try taking pics, but I'm not sure how well it
                              will come out since it's white on white.

                              Isabeau
                            • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                              I ordered some of the 3.5 oz linen too. The threads are quite thick, not set too closely together. It s not completely opaque, but quite close. Washing it got
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jan 30, 2004
                                I ordered some of the 3.5 oz linen too. The threads are quite thick,
                                not set too closely together. It's not completely opaque, but quite
                                close. Washing it got it softer, but if anything more opaque, since
                                the threads shrank closer together and got a bit more fluffy. More
                                washing will get it still softer, I expect, but not finer.

                                I got some of their mid-weight linen and its almost too coarse to be
                                used. On the other hand, the blue grey that I got is thin but dense
                                and drapable, and altogether yummy. They don't seem to list it any
                                more though.

                                Ranvaig

                                >I'm wondering if maybe it's just the starch or something, whatever the
                                >finish is on linen when it comes to you prior to washing. I'm totally
                                >new at this, first linen, first chemise... So maybe after washing
                                >it'll be light. -
                                >
                                >> > Gysela wrote:
                                >> > > I'm wondering about linen weights too. I ordered my first linen --
                                >> > > some of the 3.5 oz. linen from fabrics-store.com. I haven't been
                                >able to find anything lighter anywhere
                              • Willow Polson
                                Hey you guys, I found some really great books at this place: http://www.hamiltonbook.com/ You may have seen the newsprint version of this catalog... I just
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jan 30, 2004
                                  Hey you guys, I found some really great books at this place:

                                  http://www.hamiltonbook.com/

                                  You may have seen the newsprint version of this catalog... I just bought 4
                                  great books from them this evening and you can search by keywords (like
                                  "medieval embroidery" or "living history" for example) or browse by
                                  subject. Cool! (And yes, I not only added this to our Links, I made a
                                  folder called Book Sellers where other people can add their fave place to
                                  get living history books...)

                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                  Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
                                  Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
                                  http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                • Wanda Pease
                                  Willow, what a great idea. I just went to your folder and added a bunch from my favorites list. I ve done business with all of them and been very satisfied.
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jan 31, 2004
                                    Willow, what a great idea. I just went to your folder and added a bunch
                                    from my favorites list. I've done business with all of them and been very
                                    satisfied.

                                    I also do a lot of book buying from used book sources such as abebooks.com,
                                    bookfinder.com, half.com etc. Sometimes if you know the title of the book
                                    you can get it a lot cheaper than Amazon wants to charge for it, even if you
                                    use their link to bibliofind.com. Also, not all sellers list with any of
                                    these, so you keep going through the list until you hit what you want at a
                                    price you are willing to pay.

                                    There are also an incredible number of books on-line, free for the
                                    downloading. If someone wants to make up the link page, I'll post to it.

                                    Regina, who spends WAY too much money on books now!


                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Willow Polson
                                    >
                                    > Hey you guys, I found some really great books at this place:
                                    >
                                    > http://www.hamiltonbook.com/
                                    >
                                    > You may have seen the newsprint version of this catalog... I just
                                    > bought 4
                                    > great books from them this evening and you can search by keywords (like
                                    > "medieval embroidery" or "living history" for example) or browse by
                                    > subject. Cool! (And yes, I not only added this to our Links, I made a
                                    > folder called Book Sellers where other people can add their fave place to
                                    > get living history books...)
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                    Note: some of these only work if even back then you stuck to cotton or other natural fibres.... 1. Donate to Gold Key. 2. Give to a nursery school or
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 1, 2004
                                      Note: some of these only work if even back then you
                                      stuck to cotton or other natural fibres....

                                      1. Donate to Gold Key.
                                      2. Give to a nursery school or after-school program
                                      to
                                      play dressup.
                                      3. Adapt for a Halloween costume.
                                      4. Cut up for patchwork.
                                      5. Recut and sew into mundane clothing.
                                      6. Use as a nightgown.
                                      7. Make dollclothes.
                                      8. Donate to a church for Nativity pageants.
                                      9. Wash and dry the car.
                                      10. Enter tacky garb contests.
                                      11. Teach a class using it as an example of what not
                                      to.
                                      12. Recut using an authentic pattern to try it out
                                      before cutting your $10/yard woolen.

                                      Anyone like to add to the list?

                                      I'm working on #12 now. My goal is mid-13th century
                                      Welsh, looking at the Peniarth 28 and Maciejowski
                                      Bible illustrations. I've got Kass's article on the
                                      St. Louis tunic and Cynthia Virtue's Practical
                                      Worksheet for Tunic Construction. Any suggestions,
                                      amendments,pitfalls, or advice?

                                      Diolch iti.

                                      Gweyrvyl



                                      __________________________________
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                                    • wodeford
                                      ... I don t know if you re a machine or hand sewer, however, if you are a machine sewer, don t try to set the gore points in place with the machine. Get the
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 1, 2004
                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                        <huwydd@y...> wrote:
                                        >> I'm working on #12 now. My goal is mid-13th century
                                        > Welsh, looking at the Peniarth 28 and Maciejowski
                                        > Bible illustrations. I've got Kass's article on the
                                        > St. Louis tunic and Cynthia Virtue's Practical
                                        > Worksheet for Tunic Construction. Any suggestions,
                                        > amendments,pitfalls, or advice?

                                        I don't know if you're a machine or hand sewer, however, if you are a
                                        machine sewer, don't try to set the gore points in place with the
                                        machine. Get the points sewn in by hand, THEN you can machine sew the
                                        rest of the seams if you so desire. These tunic styles are pretty
                                        easy to put together, otherwise. I love 'em.

                                        Jehanne
                                      • Mary Taran
                                        ... www.clotilde.com has pleating machines for people who do a lot of smocking. I understand they are fast and reliable. Mary Taran [Non-text portions of this
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 1, 2004
                                          >I can tell you now--pleating is a pain in the butt and you will get
                                          >sick of doing a running stitch. Once that's done, however, the
                                          >embroidery work is fairly quick and really satisfying. I did a cuff
                                          >in a few hours. I'll try taking pics, but I'm not sure how well it
                                          >will come out since it's white on white.
                                          >
                                          >Isabeau

                                          www.clotilde.com has pleating machines for people who do a lot of
                                          smocking. I understand they are fast and reliable.

                                          Mary Taran

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Mary Taran
                                          ... It is my understanding that the 3.5 they get is variable--sometimes it s thicker threads woven loosely, and other times it s finer all over. That is one
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 1, 2004
                                            At 12:21 PM 1/30/04, you wrote:
                                            >I ordered some of the 3.5 oz linen too. The threads are quite thick,
                                            >not set too closely together. It's not completely opaque, but quite
                                            >close. Washing it got it softer, but if anything more opaque, since
                                            >the threads shrank closer together and got a bit more fluffy. More
                                            >washing will get it still softer, I expect, but not finer.
                                            >
                                            >I got some of their mid-weight linen and its almost too coarse to be
                                            >used. On the other hand, the blue grey that I got is thin but dense
                                            >and drapable, and altogether yummy. They don't seem to list it any
                                            >more though.
                                            >
                                            >Ranvaig

                                            It is my understanding that the 3.5 they get is variable--sometimes it's
                                            thicker threads woven loosely, and other times it's finer all over. That
                                            is one problem with using weights as the delineation of a fabric's fineness
                                            or sheerness.

                                            Mary Taran

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                            ... Probably a combination - hand sewing on the parts that show, and machine on the long seams when my hands rebel or my eyes glaze over. ... I m worried about
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 1, 2004
                                              --- wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

                                              >
                                              > I don't know if you're a machine or hand sewer,

                                              Probably a combination - hand sewing on the parts that
                                              show, and machine on the long seams when my hands
                                              rebel or my eyes glaze over.

                                              > however, if you are a
                                              > machine sewer, don't try to set the gore points in
                                              > place with the
                                              > machine. Get the points sewn in by hand, THEN you
                                              > can machine sew the
                                              > rest of the seams if you so desire.

                                              I'm worried about those gores anyhow. I might put a
                                              center seam in just to make the gores a bit easier,
                                              the first time at least.

                                              How do you set in gore points without botching the
                                              whole thing?


                                              Gweyrvyl

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                                            • wodeford
                                              ... That does work pretty well. ... Give yourself a fair seam allowance and pin the sucker! http://www.vertetsable.com/demos_goresgussets.htm has some info on
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Feb 1, 2004
                                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                                <huwydd@y...> wrote:
                                                >> I'm worried about those gores anyhow. I might put a
                                                > center seam in just to make the gores a bit easier,
                                                > the first time at least.
                                                That does work pretty well.

                                                > How do you set in gore points without botching the
                                                > whole thing?

                                                Give yourself a fair seam allowance and pin the sucker!

                                                http://www.vertetsable.com/demos_goresgussets.htm has some info on
                                                doing this by machine or hand, complete with photos.

                                                Good luck,
                                                Jehanne
                                              • Heather Rose Jones
                                                ... Here s my method. 1. Cut the slit in the main fabric up to around 2 inches from where you expect it to end. 2. Take the gore and fold a
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Feb 1, 2004
                                                  At 4:20 PM -0800 2/1/04, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg wrote:

                                                  >I'm worried about those gores anyhow. I might put a
                                                  >center seam in just to make the gores a bit easier,
                                                  >the first time at least.
                                                  >
                                                  >How do you set in gore points without botching the
                                                  >whole thing?

                                                  Here's my method.

                                                  1. Cut the slit in the main fabric up to around 2 inches from where
                                                  you expect it to end.

                                                  2. Take the gore and fold a seam-allowance-worth of fabric under
                                                  along the seams. Don't worry too much about the top being neat, but
                                                  find the theoretical "point" where your fold lines will meet.

                                                  3. Lay the gore onto the main fabric so that your folded edges are a
                                                  seam-allowance-worth from the slit edge (i.e., so that the two cut
                                                  edges line up underneath where you're not looking). Line up the
                                                  point of the folded gore to your theoretical top of the slit (that
                                                  you haven't cut up to yet).

                                                  4. Pin in place along both sides. Hold the panel up to see how it
                                                  hangs. The point may be funky, but there shouldn't be weird bunching
                                                  or pulling along the sides.

                                                  5. When you're happy, rearrange the pins so that you've got a more
                                                  traditional "pinned right sides together", but without moving the
                                                  pieces relative to each other. Don't worry about the top couple of
                                                  inches -- in fact, take out any pins in the top.

                                                  6. Sew the seams up to within a couple inches of the top -- stop at
                                                  whatever point it starts getting awkward. Sew both seams from the
                                                  same direction, either bottom up or top down (so if there's any minor
                                                  "fabric creep" it goes in the same direction).

                                                  7. Working from the right side, re-fold and re-pin your "point".
                                                  Hand sew the folded edges to the main panel with a whip stitch.

                                                  8. Turn to the "wrong" side again, carefully start snipping the
                                                  final part of your slit behind the point, but only as high as you
                                                  need to go so that the point lies elegantly on the right side. You
                                                  _don't_ want to snip all the way up to the "point".

                                                  9. Add seam finishes, if appropriate, but any machine work should
                                                  again stop a couple inches short of the point and be finished by hand.

                                                  Ok, so I don't actually do it this carefully and methodically all the
                                                  time, but if I were teaching someone, that's where I'd start them out.

                                                  For another angle, consider that at least on several garments with
                                                  this type of inset gore, the gore is slightly gathered at the top,
                                                  rather than being inserted with a crisp "point". The Saint Louis
                                                  tunic actually has a slight gathering to the point of the gore, and
                                                  there's a tunic in Hald (I forget the site name offhand) that has
                                                  several inches worth of "top" gathered or pleated into the insertion
                                                  point.

                                                  Tangwystyl
                                                  --
                                                  *****
                                                  Heather Rose Jones
                                                  hrjones@...
                                                  *****
                                                • Ii Saburou
                                                  ... You know, I ll have to save those. I could have used that advice on several projects! -Ii
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Feb 1, 2004
                                                    On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, wodeford wrote:

                                                    > Give yourself a fair seam allowance and pin the sucker!
                                                    >
                                                    > http://www.vertetsable.com/demos_goresgussets.htm has some info on
                                                    > doing this by machine or hand, complete with photos.

                                                    You know, I'll have to save those. I could have used that advice on
                                                    several projects!

                                                    -Ii
                                                  • Lynn Meyer
                                                    ... Would you please explain that more? As in, is it the gore itself that has gathering, or the main-panel that the gore is set into? So far on two projects,
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Feb 1, 2004
                                                      > From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@...>
                                                      >Subject: Re: Re: 101 Uses for a dead T-tunic....
                                                      >
                                                      ><large snip>
                                                      >
                                                      >For another angle, consider that at least on several garments with
                                                      >this type of inset gore, the gore is slightly gathered at the top,
                                                      >rather than being inserted with a crisp "point". The Saint Louis
                                                      >tunic actually has a slight gathering to the point of the gore, and
                                                      >there's a tunic in Hald (I forget the site name offhand) that has
                                                      >several inches worth of "top" gathered or pleated into the insertion
                                                      >point.

                                                      Would you please explain that more? As in, is it the gore itself
                                                      that has gathering, or the main-panel that the gore is set into?

                                                      So far on two projects, I've been doing "machine-sew up to
                                                      the last few inches, then improvise something that won't fray
                                                      no matter how much I wash it", but I'm not satisfied with
                                                      how long it takes... I'm hoping that people in period
                                                      figured out something I can use!

                                                      I saw a "gathering" comment in your TI article on the St. Louis
                                                      tunic, but wasn't sure how to interpret it there either.

                                                      Thanks!
                                                      Halima
                                                      =====================================================
                                                      SCA: Halima de la Lucha, Crosston, Mists, West
                                                      (Silicon Valley (San Francisco Bay Area), CA, USA)
                                                      http://www.halimal.com

                                                      >Tangwystyl
                                                      >--
                                                      >*****
                                                      >Heather Rose Jones
                                                      >hrjones@...
                                                      >*****
                                                    • aheilvei
                                                      ... abebooks.com, ... the book ... even if you ... May I request that you add these sources to the booksellers folder? After all, they re book sellers too and
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Feb 2, 2004
                                                        > I also do a lot of book buying from used book sources such as
                                                        abebooks.com,
                                                        > bookfinder.com, half.com etc. Sometimes if you know the title of
                                                        the book
                                                        > you can get it a lot cheaper than Amazon wants to charge for it,
                                                        even if you
                                                        > use their link to bibliofind.com.


                                                        May I request that you add these sources to the booksellers folder?
                                                        After all, they're book sellers too and are used by a tremendous
                                                        number of people.

                                                        Smiles,
                                                        Despina
                                                      • Heather Rose Jones
                                                        ... The gore, rather than being a triangle, has the top point cut off so that there is a flat top. (And I don t know why I m utterly blanking on the proper
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Feb 3, 2004
                                                          At 8:37 PM -0800 2/1/04, Lynn Meyer wrote:
                                                          > > From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones@...>
                                                          >>Subject: Re: Re: 101 Uses for a dead T-tunic....
                                                          >>
                                                          >><large snip>
                                                          >>
                                                          >>For another angle, consider that at least on several garments with
                                                          >>this type of inset gore, the gore is slightly gathered at the top,
                                                          >>rather than being inserted with a crisp "point". The Saint Louis
                                                          >>tunic actually has a slight gathering to the point of the gore, and
                                                          >>there's a tunic in Hald (I forget the site name offhand) that has
                                                          >>several inches worth of "top" gathered or pleated into the insertion
                                                          >>point.
                                                          >
                                                          >Would you please explain that more? As in, is it the gore itself
                                                          >that has gathering, or the main-panel that the gore is set into?


                                                          The gore, rather than being a triangle, has the top point "cut off"
                                                          so that there is a flat top. (And I don't know why I'm utterly
                                                          blanking on the proper name for this in geometry.) The flat top is
                                                          slightly gathered and the seam path on the main panel is has more of
                                                          a rounded top rather than a point.


                                                          >So far on two projects, I've been doing "machine-sew up to
                                                          >the last few inches, then improvise something that won't fray
                                                          >no matter how much I wash it", but I'm not satisfied with
                                                          >how long it takes... I'm hoping that people in period
                                                          >figured out something I can use!

                                                          *laugh* But of course people in period had a solution that took even
                                                          _longer_! I honestly think that the "hand-sew the top of the gore"
                                                          method is the optimum balance between efficiency and good results.
                                                          It isn't even just the esthetics -- it's pretty much topologically
                                                          impossible to sew a pointed gusset entirely by machine unless you're
                                                          going for a two-part main panel instead.

                                                          Tangwystyl
                                                          --
                                                          *****
                                                          Heather Rose Jones
                                                          hrjones@...
                                                          *****
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