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RE: authenticity is daunting

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  • Giovanna d'Este
    Well, Andrea, I ll sit in there with you, for what it s worth. We all have our particular hobbyhorses regarding authenticity. While mine is food and what they
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 21, 2004
      Well, Andrea, I'll sit in there with you, for what it's worth.

      We all have our particular hobbyhorses regarding authenticity. While mine is
      food and what they ate and the great quest to teach people that by and large
      it's GOOD food, I just finished a new outfit. It's impressive, amazing, a
      houppelande and silly hat, with underkirtle. I'm looking forward to wearing
      it.

      It's made with synthetic velveteen, cotton lining with silk where it will
      show (they didn't have enough of it to do anything but sleeves and collar
      area of the houp), and sewn with cotton thread on a machine. (Except the
      cartridge pleating, but that has to be done by hand anyway...) The
      underkirtle is a cotton print. The hat is made out of two straw hats that I
      ripped apart and rebuilt with liberal use of a hot glue gun, lined with
      muslin and cotton padding and covered with more synthetic velvet, although
      the veil pinned over is indeed silk. But the undergarment pattern is one
      I've seen in a manuscript, the cut and style are period, and I'm not doing
      this for competition, but to look good. Sure, it SHOULD be silk velvet, and
      lined with silk, or linen if I can't get enough silk for the body lining.
      Sure, the hat should be entirely stitched together with linen thread, and
      the underdress should be linen. But I'm not entering this in anything, and I
      can handle cotton on my skin.

      I'd -like- to replace a lot of my cottons with linen. Well, there's that
      whole keeping the lights on issue...and the fact that I've got joint
      problems so long stretches sewing are not good. I'd LIKE to do dresses with
      wool, but, again, gotta feed the kids. Right now that's not in the budget.
      It will be. I'm starting to replace things, and as I replace I'm doing them
      in linen, and using a cut that works for my body and feels period, and looks
      more period than not. I want to know how it was. I want to find the little
      "magic moments" when it feels like it might have been. And somehow I don't
      require everything in the scene I see to be perfect...if the feeling's
      right. Me, I save my fidgeting about things for recipes and cooking
      techniques, and concentrate on having fun.

      So I won't give you grief about your tunic or your tent...not when I hear
      all the stuff you have to say about persona development. That's neat. You
      can come sit by me and talk any time. And we can jointly scratch our heads
      over the latest theory in how Burgundian dresses were constructed.



      Al vostro servizio,
      Signora Giovanna d'Este

      Vert, on a billet Or three fleurs-de-lys, one and two, sable, a bordure
      dancetty Or.

      "Numquam Succumbe"



      >Message: 21
      > Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:31:37 -0800 (PST)
      > From: Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg <huwydd@...>
      >Subject: Re: Re: budget playing was: Soda Cans, etc.
      >
      >
      >From the point of view of someone new to the idea of
      >actually trying to be authentic....I started out on
      >this list excited about the possibility of actually
      >doing things "right", but lately am getting more and
      >more discouraged. Since my perception is that only
      >perfect is considered good enough, the only way I can
      >see is to drop out of the SCA for five years or so
      >while I learn enough to make the garb right. It
      >should take me half that time just to sort out whom to
      >believe and which sources are accurate. Links to
      >fabric stores are great, but not until I have figured
      >out what kind of fabric I need. And by the time I
      >work out which pattern to use, someone else will have
      >discovered that's not really how they cut it.
      >
      >And maybe, then, after I find out what style of tent
      >was used in the 13th century, and research the pottery
      >and glassware, and what species of treen my platters
      >were made of, so I can buy accurate reproductions,
      >maybe I can focus on the literature and way of life
      >that are really my biggest interest in the first
      >place. I care a lot more about how my persona thought
      >and prayed and raised her children than I do about
      >exactly what she wore, but the impression I'm getting
      >is that authenticity is all about arts and crafts,
      >mostly in the 15th century and later.
      >
      >Either way I end up with nobody to play with. The
      >costume party players with occasional flashes of
      >documentation for competitions don't care about how it
      >really was, and the people who do the research and use
      >it don't seem to have much tolerance for "good enough"
      > or "I'm still learning".
      >
      >So I'll go sit in the corner of my nylon tent, all by
      >myself in my cotton T-tunic, and rewrite the Golden
      >Legend in sonnet form. Maybe I can develop a virtual
      >persona...
      >
      >Andrea

      _________________________________________________________________
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    • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
      ... Isn t it, though? If I could just convince my significant other....he believes if God had meant meat to be cooked with nuts, fruits, or cinnamon, He would
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
        --- Giovanna d'Este <bellagia@...> wrote:

        >
        > We all have our particular hobbyhorses regarding
        > authenticity. While mine is
        > food and what they ate and the great quest to teach
        > people that by and large
        > it's GOOD food,

        Isn't it, though? If I could just convince my
        significant other....he believes if God had meant meat
        to be cooked with nuts, fruits, or cinnamon, He would
        have put the latter ingredients in little bags like
        giblets in a turkey. But he IS fond of armored
        turnips, provided I tweak the spices a little.

        I just finished a new outfit. It's
        > impressive, amazing, a
        > houppelande and silly hat, with underkirtle. I'm
        > looking forward to wearing
        > it.

        I would love to see it - on the photos page, mayhap?
        I don't wear things like that, but enjoy all the more
        seeing them on other people.


        ...And we can
        > jointly scratch our heads
        > over the latest theory in how Burgundian dresses
        > were constructed.
        >

        More complexly than the 13th century gown I'm still
        trying to draft....but I'll listen to your ideas.

        >
        >
        > "Numquam Succumbe"

        Now that I can translate....I suspect my persona, when
        I resolve the "literacy was uncommon but I'm in this
        for the books" issue, will prove to have just enough
        Latin to be dangerous.

        Vale,
        Gweyrvyl/Andrea

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      • aheilvei
        ... So make Meat Roman Style for him and tell him afterward that it s period. Take ground meat, sprinkle it with salt and corriander then put it to the
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
          > > it's GOOD food,
          >
          > Isn't it, though? If I could just convince my
          > significant other....


          So make "Meat Roman Style" for him and tell him afterward that it's
          period. Take ground meat, sprinkle it with salt and corriander then
          put it to the flames. Most people today call it a hamburger. :)

          Smiles,
          Despina
        • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
          ... Hmm, I ve never tried coriander on hamburgers, but I bet it would be good. Thanks for the suggestion. Andrea/Gweyrvyl __________________________________
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
            --- aheilvei <aheilvei@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > So make "Meat Roman Style" for him and tell him
            > afterward that it's
            > period. Take ground meat, sprinkle it with salt and
            > corriander then
            > put it to the flames. Most people today call it a
            > hamburger. :)

            Hmm, I've never tried coriander on hamburgers, but I
            bet it would be good. Thanks for the suggestion.

            Andrea/Gweyrvyl

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          • Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
            ... If your person is 13th century, have a read of Holmes s Daily living in the 12th century . Ok it s a little earlier and talking about english & french,
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
              <huwydd@y...> wrote:

              > Now that I can translate....I suspect my persona, when
              > I resolve the "literacy was uncommon but I'm in this
              > for the books" issue, will prove to have just enough
              > Latin to be dangerous.

              If your person is 13th century, have a read of Holmes's "Daily living
              in the 12th century". Ok it's a little earlier and talking about
              english & french, but I paraphrase (perhaps inaccurately, so check the
              book yourselves - it's a good read):
              litteracy was very uncommon
              litteracy was pretty common amoungst the nobility (the nobility being
              only a small fraction of the population)
              basic literacy of noble girls (read latin and french/anglo-french) was
              taught as a child, often in the same classes as the boys.
              After this basic literacy training, girls would go off to relatives to
              be basically ladies in waiting, learning needlecrafts, domestic chores
              for their social level, etc
              boys would either go off to be a knight (for which literacy was
              prefered, but not essential), or into the clergy to study more (quite
              common, and I think not implying a lifelong vocation). Probably some
              other career choices existed, but I think not many, since basic
              landholder noble was a knight, the teacher a cleric, and doctors and
              tax collectors weren't noble.
              Also he suggests that basic litteracy might not be as good as it
              sounds - books were read slowly, and often aloud even when alone.


              anyway, end poor paraphrase, but i found it facinating that if i were
              a noble lady (not a well to do merchant, or of a hireling knight's
              family) I would be more likely to be literate than not. Although i
              might rue the fact that he could the next stage of literacy training
              and some numeracy, while I would be very unlikely to, and he might
              even make it to university, while it would be a scandal for a lady to
              try and do so. (i'm extrapolating a little here)

              hope this helps sort out your conundrum a little.

              Teffania, litterate 12th C lady
            • Laura C. Minnick
              ... Yup. And let me expand this just a bit. Then I gotta go to bed- I have a dr appt in the a.m. Books were read aloud as a matter of course well into the
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
                At 03:19 AM 1/28/2004, you wrote:

                >Also he suggests that basic litteracy might not be as good as it
                >sounds - books were read slowly, and often aloud even when alone.

                Yup. And let me expand this just a bit. Then I gotta go to bed- I have a dr
                appt in the a.m.

                Books were read aloud as a matter of course well into the 14th-15th c- when
                literacy suddenly when *boom!* people began to get into the habit of
                reading silently (except for the monastery, where it was the habit [oh, ow!
                didn't mean to] to read aloud for the common edification). It was however
                occasionally the fashion in court circles, etc, to have books read aloud.
                There's a lovely manuscript illustration of Chaucer, in a little pulpit
                thing, reading to a group of finely dressed folk, including the King
                (Richard II).

                Reading aloud meant that puns and little jokes and such had to be
                understood in that way- and there was a complexity to literature that was
                oral and aural in nature that we don't necessarily understand as silent
                readers. Something such as the multi-valent nature of the ward 'game' in
                _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight_ is more likely to be picked up by the ear
                than the eye.

                Could say more, but I've got to go. TTFN-

                'Lainie
                ___________________________________________________________________________
                "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president ... right or
                wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to
                the American public." -- Teddy Roosevelt, 1918

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kass McGann
                ... that was ... silent ... ward game in ... the ear ... Hello all. This is a fascinating discussion. I d like to add a point. We think of literacy as
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm@e...>
                  wrote:
                  > At 03:19 AM 1/28/2004, you wrote:
                  >
                  > >Also he suggests that basic litteracy might not be as good as it
                  > >sounds - books were read slowly, and often aloud even when alone.

                  > Reading aloud meant that puns and little jokes and such had to be
                  > understood in that way- and there was a complexity to literature
                  that was
                  > oral and aural in nature that we don't necessarily understand as
                  silent
                  > readers. Something such as the multi-valent nature of the
                  ward 'game' in
                  > _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight_ is more likely to be picked up by
                  the ear
                  > than the eye.

                  Hello all. This is a fascinating discussion. I'd like to add a
                  point. We think of "literacy" as meaning the ability to read and
                  write, but one did not necessarily dictate the other. I do mid-15th
                  century English and while the majority of nobles in our time period
                  could read, at least to a degree, many of them couldn't write
                  anything more than their names, particularly the men. I forget which
                  one of you ladies was talking about girls going off to be waiting
                  women in noble households and boys going to train to be knights, but
                  it was this very phenomenon that is thought to be the reason why it
                  was more likely for women to be able to write and read better than
                  men. For boys, learning to be a noble lord was much more important
                  than "book learning", so their "book" education ended earlier than
                  girls'.

                  The Paston Letters give us some great information on the extent to
                  which a wealthy and favoured but not noble (Paston was a lawyer who
                  was knighted, not a lord) family wrote correspondence. Many of the
                  letters, even the intimate ones between husbands and wives, are
                  written by a scribe with only the signature in the hand of the
                  correspondent. Every once in a while, we get someone writing her own
                  letters, but not often. It must have been a point of pride to have a
                  scribe in your employ to do such work for you. So why do it yourself.

                  Scribes were often men who had a monastery education. My husband
                  portrays our house scribe in the 15th century group I mentioned
                  earlier. They weren't necessarily ordained priests, I'm given to
                  understand, but men who went to the monastery as boys and who learned
                  to read and write in English (and earlier, French) and Latin.
                  Sometimes they *were* ordained and also functioned as secular priests
                  as well. Bob sings the Mass in Latin and says the prayers over our
                  table before meals. It's kinda cool. His position is that of our
                  household steward's deputy, so to speak. The steward runs the
                  household, financially, and the scribe helps him. Bob spends alot of
                  his time in camp doing inventories. =)

                  [For the edification of those who are wondering, in our 15th century
                  group, I do NOT portray the wife of a priest. He is a priest. I am
                  our lady's waiting woman. We're just "co-workers" in the same
                  household.]

                  Neat, i'n't it?

                  Kass
                • Christina L Biles
                  ... period. Take ground meat, sprinkle it with salt and corriander then put it to the flames. Most people today call it a hamburger. :) I prefer my Meat
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
                    Despina suggested:
                    >>>So make "Meat Roman Style" for him and tell him afterward that it's
                    period. Take ground meat, sprinkle it with salt and corriander then
                    put it to the flames. Most people today call it a hamburger. :)


                    I prefer my "Meat Roman Style" Platina's way. I take steak meat, cut it
                    up into cubes, thread it onto a skewer, rub it with salt and ground
                    coriander, and grill it. Most people today call it skewers. :> I love
                    Platina, don't you?

                    Have you tried it with fennel yet? That's even better, as long as you are
                    sparing with the fennel. I did skewers for a feast last September, and
                    they were a big hit.

                    -Magdalena
                  • Hasoferet@aol.com
                    In a message dated 1/28/04 3:21:09 AM, tbro3@student.monash.edu.au writes:
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
                      In a message dated 1/28/04 3:21:09 AM, tbro3@... writes:

                      << Also he suggests that basic litteracy might not be as good as it

                      sounds - books were read slowly, and often aloud even when alone. >>

                      As someone who's doing reading intervention at the moment--'literacy' at the
                      time and 'literacy' in the present are kind of apples and oranges. Reading
                      aloud was the standard for a very long time, and when books were limited and
                      often sacred, the kind of
                      speed-reading-everything's-got-letters-on-it-read-it-quick-or-you'll-hit-the-roadblock-it's-talking-about-read-silent-read-speedy
                      style we evolved as a social skill to meet much greater amounts of text makes
                      little sense. They did point and read aloud, but I don't know if we can interpret
                      much about their decoding skills from that.

                      Just a thought,

                      Raquel
                    • james barker
                      Oh look at me I m a Preist, I can read and write ;) Little inside joke. James Scribes were often men who had a monastery education. My husband portrays our
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
                        Oh look at me I'm a Preist, I can read and write ;)

                        Little inside joke.

                        James


                        Scribes were often men who had a monastery education. My husband
                        portrays our house scribe in the 15th century group I mentioned
                        earlier. They weren't necessarily ordained priests, I'm given to
                        understand, but men who went to the monastery as boys and who learned
                        to read and write in English (and earlier, French) and Latin.
                        Sometimes they *were* ordained and also functioned as secular priests
                        as well. Bob sings the Mass in Latin and says the prayers over our
                        table before meals. It's kinda cool. His position is that of our
                        household steward's deputy, so to speak. The steward runs the
                        household, financially, and the scribe helps him. Bob spends alot of
                        his time in camp doing inventories. =)


                        Kass
                      • Kass McGann
                        ... And spell too... ... Bigger inside joke. Kass PS -- James is in my 15thc group.
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "james barker" <flonzy@h...>
                          wrote:
                          > Oh look at me I'm a Preist, I can read and write ;)

                          And spell too... <WINK>

                          > Little inside joke.
                          >
                          > James

                          Bigger inside joke.

                          Kass

                          PS -- James is in my 15thc group.
                        • aheilvei
                          ... cut it up into cubes, thread it onto a skewer, rub it with salt and ground coriander, and grill it. Most people today call it skewers. : I love
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
                            > I prefer my "Meat Roman Style" Platina's way. I take steak meat,
                            cut it up into cubes, thread it onto a skewer, rub it with salt and
                            ground coriander, and grill it. Most people today call it
                            skewers. :> I love Platina, don't you?
                            >

                            Lucky for the Middle kingdom there are two beautiful women who seem
                            to be reincarnations of Platina and they can quote you from a
                            heckofalotta the book! They're also kind, generous and a lot of
                            fun. Mistress Hauviette and Mistress Iasmine. Platina is wonderful!


                            > Have you tried it with fennel yet? That's even better, as long as
                            you are sparing with the fennel. I did skewers for a feast last
                            September, and they were a big hit.
                            >

                            Of course, and I like them that way too! Meat on a stick is just so
                            yummy *and* period to boot! mmmmmmm

                            Smiles,
                            Despina de la glad it's almost lunchtime
                          • Christina L Biles
                            ... portrays our house scribe in the 15th century group I mentioned earlier. They weren t necessarily ordained priests, I m given to understand, but men who
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
                              Kass said:
                              >>>Scribes were often men who had a monastery education. My husband
                              portrays our house scribe in the 15th century group I mentioned
                              earlier. They weren't necessarily ordained priests, I'm given to
                              understand, but men who went to the monastery as boys and who learned
                              to read and write in English (and earlier, French) and Latin.

                              From the Lisle Letters, written in the 1530s:

                              "pleaseth your lady to understand that here is a priest, a very honest
                              man, which would gladly do service to my lord and your ladyship. And
                              these properties he hath: he writes a very fair secretary hand and text
                              hand and Roman, and singeth surely, and playeth very cunningly on the
                              organs; and he is very cunning in drawing knots in gardens, and well seen
                              in graffyng and keeping of cocomers and other yerbes. I judge him very
                              meet for to do my lord and your ladyship service."
                              Lisle Letters (abridged) p.61

                              So, how is your Bob at growing cucumbers?


                              -Magdalena
                            • Kass McGann
                              ... honest ... And ... text ... the ... well seen ... very ... Oh, that s grand, Magdalena! Thanks! I ll have to make sure he sees that. =) Kass
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Christina L Biles
                                <bilescl@o...> wrote:
                                > From the Lisle Letters, written in the 1530s:
                                >
                                > "pleaseth your lady to understand that here is a priest, a very
                                honest
                                > man, which would gladly do service to my lord and your ladyship.
                                And
                                > these properties he hath: he writes a very fair secretary hand and
                                text
                                > hand and Roman, and singeth surely, and playeth very cunningly on
                                the
                                > organs; and he is very cunning in drawing knots in gardens, and
                                well seen
                                > in graffyng and keeping of cocomers and other yerbes. I judge him
                                very
                                > meet for to do my lord and your ladyship service."
                                > Lisle Letters (abridged) p.61
                                >
                                > So, how is your Bob at growing cucumbers?

                                <guffaw> Oh, that's grand, Magdalena! Thanks! I'll have to make
                                sure he sees that. =)

                                Kass
                              • Hasoferet@aol.com
                                ... Hey, if you can prove it in court it s worth something... R.
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
                                  In a message dated 1/28/2004 9:50:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, flonzy@... writes:

                                  > Oh look at me I'm a Preist, I can read and write ;)
                                  >
                                  > Little inside joke.

                                  Hey, if you can prove it in court it's worth something...

                                  R.
                                • Laura C. Minnick
                                  More RE: literacy- Anyone with a mid-later period western persona (or simply an interest in the matter) might be interested in a book by Steven Justice,
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 29, 2004
                                    More RE: literacy-

                                    Anyone with a mid-later period western persona (or simply an interest in
                                    the matter) might be interested in a book by Steven Justice, _Writing and
                                    Rebellion_ (University of California Press, Berkeley, 1994). He links the
                                    burgeoning literacy rates in the late 14th c to the Great Rebellion in
                                    1384, via the lower orders of the clergy (John Ball, anyone?). Part of the
                                    reason it grew so fast and so far was a flier campaign- which spread
                                    information faster than it had ever before, because more people were able
                                    to read than ever before...

                                    Anyway, it is a spiffy book, and well worth looking for (I got my copy at
                                    Kzoo several years ago). Certainly amended my thoughts on education and
                                    government.

                                    'Lainie
                                    ___________________________________________________________________________
                                    "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president ... right or
                                    wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to
                                    the American public." -- Teddy Roosevelt, 1918
                                  • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                    ... Sounds a good book for many reasons. Got a publisher or ISBN handy? ... Can anyone ( I m thinking Tangwystl, but I don t know who else has Welsh
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 1, 2004
                                      --- Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
                                      <tbro3@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > If your person is 13th century, have a read of
                                      > Holmes's "Daily living
                                      > in the 12th century".

                                      Sounds a good book for many reasons. Got a publisher
                                      or ISBN handy?

                                      > litteracy was very uncommon
                                      > litteracy was pretty common amoungst the nobility
                                      > (the nobility being
                                      > only a small fraction of the population)
                                      > basic literacy of noble girls (read latin and
                                      > french/anglo-french) was
                                      > taught as a child, often in the same classes as the
                                      > boys.
                                      > After this basic literacy training, girls would go
                                      > off to relatives to
                                      > be basically ladies in waiting, learning
                                      > needlecrafts, domestic chores
                                      > for their social level, etc

                                      Can anyone ( I'm thinking Tangwystl, but I don't know
                                      who else has Welsh interests) clarify whether this
                                      would be the same case in Wales ca. 1250-1275? Would
                                      a Welsh noblewoman speak/read any French (barring
                                      Norman relatives/connections), or would it be fairly
                                      easy to find Welsh translations of French romances?

                                      > Also he suggests that basic litteracy might not be
                                      > as good as it
                                      > sounds - books were read slowly, and often aloud
                                      > even when alone.

                                      But then, much medieval literature *does* read better
                                      aloud. Mostly, I would like to be able to read
                                      Mabinogion or Roman de la Rose aloud to a sewing
                                      circle at events, and I really want my own psalter to
                                      read my prayers from, which is sort of pointless if I
                                      couldn't read.

                                      >
                                      > hope this helps sort out your conundrum a little.

                                      It does indeed. Although like most things once one
                                      gets launched on a quest for authenticity, every
                                      answer produces a few more questions.
                                      >
                                      > Teffania, litterate 12th C lady

                                      Your name, btw, is one of those which fascinate me by
                                      being period while sounding strictly modern. Were you
                                      named for the Feast?

                                      Diolch iti,
                                      Gweyrvyl


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                                    • Laura C. Minnick
                                      ... University of Wisconsin Press, ISBN -0-299-00854-1 ... Noblewoman? Possible. I don t know about translations of French romances, but the French had
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 1, 2004
                                        At 10:36 AM 2/1/2004, you wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > If your person is 13th century, have a read of
                                        > > Holmes's "Daily living
                                        > > in the 12th century".
                                        >
                                        >Sounds a good book for many reasons. Got a publisher
                                        >or ISBN handy?

                                        University of Wisconsin Press, ISBN -0-299-00854-1

                                        >Can anyone ( I'm thinking Tangwystl, but I don't know
                                        >who else has Welsh interests) clarify whether this
                                        >would be the same case in Wales ca. 1250-1275? Would
                                        >a Welsh noblewoman speak/read any French (barring
                                        >Norman relatives/connections), or would it be fairly
                                        >easy to find Welsh translations of French romances?

                                        Noblewoman? Possible.
                                        I don't know about translations of French romances, but the French had
                                        translations of Welsh ones!

                                        > > Also he suggests that basic litteracy might not be
                                        > > as good as it
                                        > > sounds - books were read slowly, and often aloud
                                        > > even when alone.
                                        >
                                        >But then, much medieval literature *does* read better
                                        >aloud. Mostly, I would like to be able to read
                                        >Mabinogion or Roman de la Rose aloud to a sewing
                                        >circle at events, and I really want my own psalter to
                                        >read my prayers from, which is sort of pointless if I
                                        >couldn't read.

                                        Roman de la Rose is later than the time period you mentioned. Arthurian
                                        romances (Cretien, etc) would be more appropriate, especially since the
                                        Arthurian legends have Welsh roots.

                                        'Lainie, who is deep into 12th c stuff at the moment...
                                        ___________________________________________________________________________
                                        "Any idiot can face a crisis; it is this day-to-day living that wears you
                                        out."-Anton Chekov



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                        ... Thanks. ... Good for them! The French-influenced romances in the Mabinogion would suggest there were Welsh translations of the French ones, but bilingual
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 1, 2004
                                          --- "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > > Holmes's "Daily living
                                          > > > in the 12th century".

                                          >
                                          > University of Wisconsin Press, ISBN -0-299-00854-1

                                          Thanks.

                                          >
                                          > Noblewoman? Possible.
                                          > I don't know about translations of French romances,
                                          > but the French had
                                          > translations of Welsh ones!

                                          Good for them! The French-influenced romances in the
                                          Mabinogion would suggest there were Welsh translations
                                          of the French ones, but bilingual authors are another
                                          possibility - and perhaps they were too busy writing
                                          their own versions to translate the originals. I
                                          suspect that if Gweyrvyl does not read French, her
                                          priest (who sees the value of secular literature)
                                          does.

                                          >
                                          > Roman de la Rose is later than the time period you
                                          > mentioned.

                                          1250-1275? I read that the first part of Rose was
                                          written about 1230, and Meun finished it forty years
                                          later.

                                          Gweyrvyl

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                                        • Laura C. Minnick
                                          ... If she is indeed well-educated, one could conjecture that she is more likely to be able to read French than English. :-) ... My mistake- it is thought to
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 1, 2004
                                            At 04:15 PM 2/1/2004, you wrote:

                                            > > I don't know about translations of French romances,
                                            > > but the French had
                                            > > translations of Welsh ones!
                                            >
                                            >Good for them! The French-influenced romances in the
                                            >Mabinogion would suggest there were Welsh translations
                                            >of the French ones, but bilingual authors are another
                                            >possibility - and perhaps they were too busy writing
                                            >their own versions to translate the originals. I
                                            >suspect that if Gweyrvyl does not read French, her
                                            >priest (who sees the value of secular literature)
                                            >does.

                                            If she is indeed well-educated, one could conjecture that she is more
                                            likely to be able to read French than English. :-)

                                            > >
                                            > > Roman de la Rose is later than the time period you
                                            > > mentioned.
                                            >
                                            >1250-1275? I read that the first part of Rose was
                                            >written about 1230, and Meun finished it forty years
                                            >later.

                                            My mistake- it is thought to have been finished around c1280 (the ones with
                                            the cool pictures are 14th-15th c, and that is what sticks in my head. Bad
                                            'Lainie). However, how likely is it that it would be available to a Welsh
                                            woman immediately after release? And if she does not read French (as above)
                                            she will have to wait... parts of it were translated into Middle English by
                                            Chaucer, but I know of no translations into Welsh, though apparently Dafydd
                                            ap Gwilym (1320-70) was known to emulate the poetry- to what extent and if
                                            he did any translation work, I don't know.

                                            'Lainie
                                            ___________________________________________________________________________
                                            "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president ... right or
                                            wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to
                                            the American public." -- Teddy Roosevelt, 1918

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Heather Rose Jones
                                            ... On a lot of this, particularly in the specifics, I don t know -- or I might have to do some fairly deep digging to have an educated guess. From the
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Feb 1, 2004
                                              At 10:36 AM -0800 2/1/04, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg wrote:
                                              >--- Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
                                              ><tbro3@...> wrote:
                                              >



                                              > > litteracy was very uncommon
                                              >> litteracy was pretty common amoungst the nobility
                                              >> (the nobility being
                                              >> only a small fraction of the population)
                                              >> basic literacy of noble girls (read latin and
                                              >> french/anglo-french) was
                                              >> taught as a child, often in the same classes as the
                                              >> boys.
                                              >> After this basic literacy training, girls would go
                                              >> off to relatives to
                                              >> be basically ladies in waiting, learning
                                              >> needlecrafts, domestic chores
                                              >> for their social level, etc
                                              >
                                              >Can anyone ( I'm thinking Tangwystl, but I don't know
                                              >who else has Welsh interests) clarify whether this
                                              >would be the same case in Wales ca. 1250-1275? Would
                                              >a Welsh noblewoman speak/read any French (barring
                                              >Norman relatives/connections), or would it be fairly
                                              >easy to find Welsh translations of French romances?

                                              On a lot of this, particularly in the specifics, "I don't know" -- or
                                              I might have to do some fairly deep digging to have an educated
                                              guess. From the available clues, girls seem a little less likely
                                              than boys to have been placed out in fosterage -- or at least there's
                                              less direct evidence for it. On the other hand, in the laws (for
                                              which it can be tricky to figure out which parts were still "living
                                              law" at any given time, and which were archaic holdovers) there are
                                              provisions discussed for the legal status of unmarried women who get
                                              pregnant while serving as hostages -- the flip side of fosterage --
                                              so perhaps the fosterage evidence simply has holes in it. It's a
                                              somewhat different paradigm from the English one, so I hate to say
                                              simply "yes" or "no", but it isn't a topic where I feel comfortable
                                              speaking confidently.

                                              The surviving manuscripts of Welsh secular literature give every
                                              appearance of having been compiled in secular contexts for everyday
                                              use. And while much is made of the origins of many of the stories in
                                              oral tradition (and of the importance of memorized recitation in
                                              poetic contexts), on the other hand you have the postscript to the
                                              tale of Rhonabwy (clearly a composed, rather than a traditional,
                                              tale) that rather sarcastically notes that "no one can know this
                                              story without a book, because of all the complex descriptions in it".
                                              So, on the one hand, it suggests that recited, rather than read,
                                              performance held some pride of place, but that read performance was
                                              in some cases expected.

                                              French literature was clearly extremely familiar to the Welsh
                                              storytellers (or story writers) of this era. Not only are several of
                                              the well-known Welsh Arthurian tales clearly adapted from French
                                              versions, but there are Welsh retellings of originally French
                                              material such as the story of Roland. This doesn't necessarily mean
                                              that everyone in the nobility was bilingual, but it means there was
                                              enough familiarity with the material that people thought it was worth
                                              translating. There was a _lot_ of intermarriage between the Welsh
                                              and Anglo-Norman nobility in the first couple centuries after the
                                              conquest, and a certain level of functional multi-lingualism can be
                                              postulated in such families.

                                              There's a great collection of articles on this general topic
                                              published under a self-explanatory titile:

                                              Pryce, Huw ed.. 1998. Literacy in Medieval Celtic Societies.
                                              Cambridge Univ Press, Cambridge. ISBN 0-521-5739-5

                                              Tangwystyl
                                              --
                                              *****
                                              Heather Rose Jones
                                              hrjones@...
                                              *****
                                            • Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
                                              ... Actually I was being really boring - My mundane name is Tiffany, and I knew a lot of the local s I d play sca with knew me socially as Tiffany, so (knowing
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Feb 2, 2004
                                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                                <huwydd@y...> wrote:
                                                > > Teffania, litterate 12th C lady
                                                >
                                                > Your name, btw, is one of those which fascinate me by
                                                > being period while sounding strictly modern. Were you
                                                > named for the Feast?
                                                >
                                                > Diolch iti,
                                                > Gweyrvyl

                                                Actually I was being really boring - My mundane name is Tiffany, and I
                                                knew a lot of the local's I'd play sca with knew me socially as
                                                Tiffany, so (knowing it was already a period name) I thought a small
                                                change was better. So I looked for a pleasing variant that went as
                                                close to 12th century england as possible. At worst I'm 50 years out
                                                (ie 12th C france, but very late 12th C england) , and with the
                                                scarcity of paperwork around 1150 I'm fairly happy with that (besides
                                                I'll play later in that period sometimes too). If it had been period
                                                only for the 14th C, then I would have had to choose something else.
                                                For the surname I chose Tuckerton - a nice small english town, with a
                                                wonderful variety of spellings, which I plan to randomly alternate
                                                between on non-legal doccuments :-)

                                                All I know about the meaning of the name, is that it is (supposedly)
                                                named after the epithany, which i suppose is what you mean by the
                                                feast. I think the book had a note that the name was not always used
                                                in relation to time of birth, but I'd actually be quite happy to have
                                                Teffania born at a differnt time to me, especially since I've decided
                                                she's younger than me -she's a bit old to be unmarried, but if she was
                                                as old as me (a shocking 25 ;) ), she'd have given up dressing like an
                                                unmarried girl, I guess.

                                                Anyway, If you know more about the epithany in a 10th -14th C context,
                                                I'd really love to hear more, since I'm really ignroant on this
                                                important aspect of Teffania's life.

                                                cya,
                                                Tiffany (who keeps Teffania in fine clothes and supplies her materials
                                                to weave and embroider with)
                                              • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                                ... Tiffany or Teffania is the English version of Theophany, the alternate name for Epiphany. -she s a bit old to be ... When I first started playing, I was my
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Feb 3, 2004
                                                  --- Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
                                                  <tbro3@...> wrote:

                                                  >
                                                  > All I know about the meaning of the name, is that it
                                                  > is (supposedly)
                                                  > named after the epithany, which i suppose is what
                                                  > you mean by the
                                                  > feast.

                                                  Tiffany or Teffania is the English version of
                                                  Theophany, the alternate name for Epiphany.

                                                  -she's a bit old to be
                                                  > unmarried, but if she was
                                                  > as old as me (a shocking 25 ;) ), she'd have given
                                                  > up dressing like an
                                                  > unmarried girl, I guess.

                                                  When I first started playing, I was my daughter's
                                                  grandmother, because I was kind of old to be her
                                                  mother in period. Besides, she wanted to be Robin
                                                  Hood's daughter, and I felt freer being Robin's
                                                  mother-in-law than Maid Marian, no matter how I
                                                  renamed myself. (I knew better, but she never claimed
                                                  officially to be RH's daughter, just in her
                                                  imagination.)
                                                  >
                                                  > Anyway, If you know more about the epithany in a
                                                  > 10th -14th C context,
                                                  > I'd really love to hear more,

                                                  You probably already know it's the celebration of the
                                                  visit of the Magi to the Infant Jesus, His Baptism,
                                                  and the first miracle at Cana. Beyond that, most of
                                                  what I know is earlier, later, or farther east, and I
                                                  wouldn't be sure of the relevance. Can you get ahold
                                                  of a copy of the Golden Legend? There's a whole
                                                  section in there about Epiphany. If you can't I'll
                                                  try to post a few excerpts.

                                                  There's also a Byzantine princess (probably several,
                                                  actually) by the name of Theophano, who married the
                                                  Holy Roman Emperor. If you read historical fiction,
                                                  look for The Eagle's Daughter, by Judith Tarr.

                                                  Iechydd da,
                                                  Gweryrvyl

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                                                • Wanda Pease
                                                  When in Normandy we visited Mont San Michelle we stopped at the museum of Bernard du Guesclin, in the Hotel du Gesclin. I noticed that his wife was named
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Feb 5, 2004
                                                    When in Normandy we visited Mont San Michelle we stopped at the museum of
                                                    Bernard du Guesclin, in the Hotel du Gesclin. I noticed that his wife was
                                                    named Tiphaine Raguenel, and was a Breton noblewoman. Du Guesclin was born
                                                    in 1320 and dies in 1380. Brittany, Normandy, and England had a lot of
                                                    contacts at this time. Particularly since the English were being driven out
                                                    of France at that time... by du Guesclin.

                                                    Regina Romsey
                                                    >
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