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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Robin Netherton visits the Philadelphia area!

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  • Colleen McDonald
    ... Just to ensure clarity, Robin lectures to SCA groups because the groups invite her and she s still fond of the Society, even though she herself has moved
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
      > For someone who doesn't do the SCA anymore unless she's a paid
      > lecturer she gets a lot of SCA press. >>

      Just to ensure clarity, Robin lectures to SCA groups because the groups
      invite her and she's still fond of the Society, even though she herself has
      moved on. She isn't actively lobbying to lecture for the SCA - folks
      approach her. I think she gets a lot of SCA press because people find her
      work to be helpful and her theories make sense.

      > Since you've been to her
      > lectures so often, you will have heard the repeated admonitions to
      > not record her lectures, not give anyone notes from her lectures
      > without the caveat that they are your interpretation of her words,
      > not her words, and not to give her handouts to anyone who hasn't
      > actually taken her classes.>>

      This is to ensure that she can actually publish her work/theories in an
      academic setting. If she allows recordings or publishes her work in a
      handout for the SCA audience, it will have a damaging effect on her ability
      to publish it and have it be a serious academic work.

      <<Drea has taught at events without needing to have her expenses paid or be
      paid to be
      > there. >>

      Drea is still an active participating member of the SCA (as far as I am
      aware). Robin is not and lectures at events as a courtesy to the group. It
      is not her primary interest (although she's delighted to discuss with us),
      so I don't see it as unreasonable to ask for her travel to be included. If
      she were not lecturing, she wouldn't be in the area.

      I know that I really appreciate all of the time and energy Robin does spend
      working with SCA folks and helping to get SCA folks on the presentation
      schedule at Kalmazoo. Despina, I'm not sure if you realize that Robin is
      one of the session organizers for K'zoo and she actively encourages and
      works with SCA folks to get their information out there to the academic
      community at the Congress? Without Robin's work in this area, I'm not sure
      how many of them would have been accorded the same opportunity by the
      academic community.

      Cainder
      (who organized Robin's lectures in Seattle last August)
    • Marc Carlson
      ... You will pardon me for this, but it s not like THAT s all that hard. As an observation, people who actually do research and make it available tend to get a
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
        > ...For someone who doesn't do the SCA anymore unless she's a paid
        > lecturer she gets a lot of SCA press.

        You will pardon me for this, but it's not like THAT's all that hard.
        As an observation, people who actually do research and make it
        available tend to get a lot of SCA attention. That's not a criticism
        of anyone or anything - it's a system that's been quite useful for me
        (not to mention good to me, and I appreicate that).

        Now, I realize you are talking about theories being just that, and you
        are prefectly correct. Some theories are well founded, some less so,
        and it's good to be skeptical. And yes, I think she'd agree if she
        were here.

        Personally, while I think Robin's observations on Gothic posture as
        they relate to how beauty is seen, and the use of garments to attain
        this are valid (which for the folks who migh not know, doesn't mean
        that I think they are true or not true - they are internally logically
        supportable). I think the whole four cornered dress design is
        intriguing speculation and does not contradict the evidence (note:
        "speculation" in this context is not a criticism, it's simply a
        statement that she's moved outside the established evidence and is
        projecting an extrapilation based on that evidence. In this case that
        extrapolation is I think reasonable give the current paucity of evidence).

        I couldn't agree with you more that (and I hope I'm not putting worse
        into your mouth here - I'm commenting on the general direction what
        you have said appears to be going, not anything you've said directly)
        people should keep in mind that what they are being given by any
        scholar should be examined critically. Personally, I wish people
        would do that with everything (television, books, academic articles,
        and so forth), and not just Robin or myself, but if that's where we
        have to start... Definately point out that the author has no obvious
        publication (OK, I think she did publish an article in the TI a few
        years ago) OTOH, the whole DISTAFF thing is pretty impressive,..
        Kalamazoo doesn't give sessions to just anyone. :)

        Marc/Diarmaid
      • aheilvei
        ... in an ... in a ... her ability ... Drea doesn t seem to have had that problem, or she wouldn t have been invited back to Kalamazoo, nor would she have been
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
          > This is to ensure that she can actually publish her work/theories
          in an
          > academic setting. If she allows recordings or publishes her work
          in a
          > handout for the SCA audience, it will have a damaging effect on
          her ability
          > to publish it and have it be a serious academic work.


          Drea doesn't seem to have had that problem, or she wouldn't have
          been invited back to Kalamazoo, nor would she have been able to
          publish her book. So I really don't see where giving your
          information to the SCA or people in the SCA would damage your
          credibility with the academic community that much. No, people who
          go to Kalamazoo and are SCA don't shout it from the rooftops, but if
          asked, they usually fess up and are generally admired as someone who
          did all the research without academic backing and resourses.


          Despina, I'm not sure if you realize that Robin is
          > one of the session organizers for K'zoo and she actively
          encourages and
          > works with SCA folks to get their information out there to the
          academic
          > community at the Congress? Without Robin's work in this area, I'm
          not sure
          > how many of them would have been accorded the same opportunity by
          the
          > academic community.


          Yes, I do know what Robin does at Kalamzaoo (and yes, I do think
          that having one's own session there is impressive) and I do think
          that others would have been (and were) afforded the same opportunity
          as Robin. She wasn't the first SCA person to attend Kalamazoo, I'd
          bet. And I know that she isn't the only person at Kalamazoo pushing
          for the inclusion of independant scholars, re-creationists, and re-
          enactors work to be represented and considered there.

          Like I said people, I don't have anything against her or her
          research, just take it with the same pinch of salt you take
          everything else.

          Marc, you didn't put anything in my mouth with your last post, I
          agree with what you said.

          Despina
        • sismith42
          ... work/theories in an academic setting. If she allows recordings or publishes her work in a handout for the SCA audience, it will have a damaging effect
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
            > > This is to ensure that she can actually publish her
            work/theories in an academic setting. If she allows recordings or
            publishes her work in a handout for the SCA audience, it will have
            a damaging effect on her ability to publish it and have it be a
            serious academic work.
            >
            > Drea doesn't seem to have had that problem, or she wouldn't have
            > been invited back to Kalamazoo, nor would she have been able to
            > publish her book. So I really don't see where giving your

            has Drea published in any academic journals? I believe they can be
            fussy at times about whether something's been published before, and
            I think *that* is what Caindeer was refereing to, rather than
            the "ewww, you do SCA" thing.

            Steph
          • Marc Carlson
            ... Okie dokie :) Which means that probably everyone should take a deep breath and avoid posting for an hour or so after reading all the other mail in this
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
              > ...Like I said people, I don't have anything against her or her
              > research, just take it with the same pinch of salt you take
              > everything else.
              > Marc, you didn't put anything in my mouth with your last post, I
              > agree with what you said.

              Okie dokie :)

              Which means that probably everyone should take a deep breath and avoid
              posting for an hour or so after reading all the other mail in this
              thread, because no one's being overly critical here by suggesting a
              little critical thinking.

              I will say if you are curious about why Robin doesn't publish - ask
              her. My observation is that she's trying really hard to get
              published, but because of the limited available spaces in academic
              journals that have any interest in her topic, she's having to wait her
              turn and do the slogging through. [in my case, otoh, I've been sucked
              in by the demons of the Internet since it's so much easier to just put
              up another wrb site, and revise the old ones, then it is to go through
              that whole publication dance (in a much more limited field) every time
              something new comes up. But that's MY problem. OTOH, that does
              remind me I have an article on lasts to write FOR publication... ]

              Just remember, if Publication was -easy- it wouldn't be a requirement
              for tenure....

              M/D
            • demontsegur
              ... Just one small point here -- Robin does not require being paid. In negotiating with me for the Philadelphia appearance, she said she only requires her
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...>
                wrote:
                > For someone who doesn't do the SCA anymore unless she's a paid
                > lecturer she gets a lot of SCA press.

                Just one small point here -- Robin does not require being paid. In
                negotiating with me for the Philadelphia appearance, she said she
                only requires her travel, room, and board expenses be covered so
                that she is not paying her own way out-of-pocket. Rather reasonable -
                - considering there's a demand for her appearances and by taking
                time away from her family, she's flying to far-off places to satisfy
                that demand. She likes to receive an honorarium if and only IF the
                monies collected can take that hit, as it helps her keep her
                prodigious slide collection maintained, covers paper costs, etc. She
                doesn't set the number, either, but leaves it up to the host. I get
                the distinct impression she is far from getting rich on these
                appearances. (As a side note, I won't be making one penny of profit
                because any leftover money after expenses will go entirely to her,
                with gratitude, because I think she will have more than earned it.)

                If her lectures with slides are what she's willing to offer us, I
                guess I'm willing to take that, no further questions asked. No-one
                owes anyone else anything when they do their own research, right?
                They can offer or not offer as much or as little of it as they want
                for public consumption, and that's their perogative. Some people
                research for their own pleasure. I know I do. I also like to publish
                what I've found on my website because it's fun to share it, and I
                will chat incessantly on certain topics in forums like this (hee
                hee) but that's just me. :^D Everyone else's mileage may vary, and
                AFAIK, it definitely does vary. To each their own, when it comes to
                sharing research.

                In contemplitude, :^)
                Marcele
              • Ariane H
                ... But on the other hand (forgive me if someone else has already said this), just because something has been published does not mean it should be taken as the
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                  marccarlson20@... wrote:

                  >Just remember, if Publication was -easy- it wouldn't be a requirement
                  >for tenure....
                  >
                  >M/D
                  >

                  But on the other hand (forgive me if someone else has already said
                  this), just because something has been published does not mean it should
                  be taken as the ultimate authority, either. My English seminar this
                  semester, while ostensibly about Elizabethan and Jacobean drama, also
                  requires us to read dozens of scholarly publications and figure out how
                  useful they are for helping us to analyze the play texts, understand
                  their historical background, etc. (Most of it is in literary theory,
                  but there's a lot of "new historicist" work that involves in-depth
                  research into things like period trade and commerce, medicine and
                  humoral theory, clothing, gender roles, etc.) Just as with any field of
                  research, some of this stuff is great, and some of it is seriously
                  flawed. In fact, the prof said of one unhelpful article we discussed
                  today, "This ought to show you how easy it can be to get published!" It
                  wasn't a totally derogatory statement - it would be virtually impossible
                  to avoid publication of all imperfect or incomplete work - but a
                  cautionary one. And even flawed or lacking work usually provokes
                  discussion and debate and further research, which is always a good thing.

                  In this same class today I had an amusing "You know you've been in the
                  SCA too long when..." moment (well, moments). We were reading John
                  Webster's "The White Devil" (1612) and the heroine/villainess of the
                  play is "Vittoria Corombona the famous Venetian Curtizan." I never knew
                  of the existence of this other Vittoria (based on the notorious Umbrian
                  noblewoman Vittoria Accorambini of Gubbio, d. 1585) until last week, but
                  that aside, it was very weird to be sitting in this discussion for two
                  hours, hearing the name "Vittoria" every other minute, and making myself
                  *not* respond to it. ;)


                  Ariane
                  (V. knows no literary theory after Aristotle)
                  ----------------
                  "...Vittoria's performances deconstruct traditional gendered antitheses
                  and expose them as contingent on subjective construction.....Similarly,
                  Vittoria's accomplished performance of masculinity exposes those
                  cultural paradigms that underlie the rhetorical posturing of the men in
                  this play."
                  --C. Luckyj, "Gender, Rhetoric, and Performance in 'The White Devil'"
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