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Re: Robin Netherton visits the Philadelphia area!

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  • sismith42
    ... she s She published something on 12th century clothing in the Winter 2002 edition of TI... but I kinda agree that lecturing & not publishing (how hard is
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
      > She also hasn't ever published anything as far as I know *and*
      she's

      She published something on 12th century clothing in the Winter 2002
      edition of TI... but I kinda agree that lecturing & not publishing
      (how hard is it to point to other places images can be found if you
      are unable to present them in your work?) is a bit... off-putting.
      Esp when not everyone can attend her lectures.

      Steph
    • Colleen McDonald
      ... Just to ensure clarity, Robin lectures to SCA groups because the groups invite her and she s still fond of the Society, even though she herself has moved
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
        > For someone who doesn't do the SCA anymore unless she's a paid
        > lecturer she gets a lot of SCA press. >>

        Just to ensure clarity, Robin lectures to SCA groups because the groups
        invite her and she's still fond of the Society, even though she herself has
        moved on. She isn't actively lobbying to lecture for the SCA - folks
        approach her. I think she gets a lot of SCA press because people find her
        work to be helpful and her theories make sense.

        > Since you've been to her
        > lectures so often, you will have heard the repeated admonitions to
        > not record her lectures, not give anyone notes from her lectures
        > without the caveat that they are your interpretation of her words,
        > not her words, and not to give her handouts to anyone who hasn't
        > actually taken her classes.>>

        This is to ensure that she can actually publish her work/theories in an
        academic setting. If she allows recordings or publishes her work in a
        handout for the SCA audience, it will have a damaging effect on her ability
        to publish it and have it be a serious academic work.

        <<Drea has taught at events without needing to have her expenses paid or be
        paid to be
        > there. >>

        Drea is still an active participating member of the SCA (as far as I am
        aware). Robin is not and lectures at events as a courtesy to the group. It
        is not her primary interest (although she's delighted to discuss with us),
        so I don't see it as unreasonable to ask for her travel to be included. If
        she were not lecturing, she wouldn't be in the area.

        I know that I really appreciate all of the time and energy Robin does spend
        working with SCA folks and helping to get SCA folks on the presentation
        schedule at Kalmazoo. Despina, I'm not sure if you realize that Robin is
        one of the session organizers for K'zoo and she actively encourages and
        works with SCA folks to get their information out there to the academic
        community at the Congress? Without Robin's work in this area, I'm not sure
        how many of them would have been accorded the same opportunity by the
        academic community.

        Cainder
        (who organized Robin's lectures in Seattle last August)
      • Marc Carlson
        ... You will pardon me for this, but it s not like THAT s all that hard. As an observation, people who actually do research and make it available tend to get a
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
          > ...For someone who doesn't do the SCA anymore unless she's a paid
          > lecturer she gets a lot of SCA press.

          You will pardon me for this, but it's not like THAT's all that hard.
          As an observation, people who actually do research and make it
          available tend to get a lot of SCA attention. That's not a criticism
          of anyone or anything - it's a system that's been quite useful for me
          (not to mention good to me, and I appreicate that).

          Now, I realize you are talking about theories being just that, and you
          are prefectly correct. Some theories are well founded, some less so,
          and it's good to be skeptical. And yes, I think she'd agree if she
          were here.

          Personally, while I think Robin's observations on Gothic posture as
          they relate to how beauty is seen, and the use of garments to attain
          this are valid (which for the folks who migh not know, doesn't mean
          that I think they are true or not true - they are internally logically
          supportable). I think the whole four cornered dress design is
          intriguing speculation and does not contradict the evidence (note:
          "speculation" in this context is not a criticism, it's simply a
          statement that she's moved outside the established evidence and is
          projecting an extrapilation based on that evidence. In this case that
          extrapolation is I think reasonable give the current paucity of evidence).

          I couldn't agree with you more that (and I hope I'm not putting worse
          into your mouth here - I'm commenting on the general direction what
          you have said appears to be going, not anything you've said directly)
          people should keep in mind that what they are being given by any
          scholar should be examined critically. Personally, I wish people
          would do that with everything (television, books, academic articles,
          and so forth), and not just Robin or myself, but if that's where we
          have to start... Definately point out that the author has no obvious
          publication (OK, I think she did publish an article in the TI a few
          years ago) OTOH, the whole DISTAFF thing is pretty impressive,..
          Kalamazoo doesn't give sessions to just anyone. :)

          Marc/Diarmaid
        • aheilvei
          ... in an ... in a ... her ability ... Drea doesn t seem to have had that problem, or she wouldn t have been invited back to Kalamazoo, nor would she have been
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
            > This is to ensure that she can actually publish her work/theories
            in an
            > academic setting. If she allows recordings or publishes her work
            in a
            > handout for the SCA audience, it will have a damaging effect on
            her ability
            > to publish it and have it be a serious academic work.


            Drea doesn't seem to have had that problem, or she wouldn't have
            been invited back to Kalamazoo, nor would she have been able to
            publish her book. So I really don't see where giving your
            information to the SCA or people in the SCA would damage your
            credibility with the academic community that much. No, people who
            go to Kalamazoo and are SCA don't shout it from the rooftops, but if
            asked, they usually fess up and are generally admired as someone who
            did all the research without academic backing and resourses.


            Despina, I'm not sure if you realize that Robin is
            > one of the session organizers for K'zoo and she actively
            encourages and
            > works with SCA folks to get their information out there to the
            academic
            > community at the Congress? Without Robin's work in this area, I'm
            not sure
            > how many of them would have been accorded the same opportunity by
            the
            > academic community.


            Yes, I do know what Robin does at Kalamzaoo (and yes, I do think
            that having one's own session there is impressive) and I do think
            that others would have been (and were) afforded the same opportunity
            as Robin. She wasn't the first SCA person to attend Kalamazoo, I'd
            bet. And I know that she isn't the only person at Kalamazoo pushing
            for the inclusion of independant scholars, re-creationists, and re-
            enactors work to be represented and considered there.

            Like I said people, I don't have anything against her or her
            research, just take it with the same pinch of salt you take
            everything else.

            Marc, you didn't put anything in my mouth with your last post, I
            agree with what you said.

            Despina
          • sismith42
            ... work/theories in an academic setting. If she allows recordings or publishes her work in a handout for the SCA audience, it will have a damaging effect
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
              > > This is to ensure that she can actually publish her
              work/theories in an academic setting. If she allows recordings or
              publishes her work in a handout for the SCA audience, it will have
              a damaging effect on her ability to publish it and have it be a
              serious academic work.
              >
              > Drea doesn't seem to have had that problem, or she wouldn't have
              > been invited back to Kalamazoo, nor would she have been able to
              > publish her book. So I really don't see where giving your

              has Drea published in any academic journals? I believe they can be
              fussy at times about whether something's been published before, and
              I think *that* is what Caindeer was refereing to, rather than
              the "ewww, you do SCA" thing.

              Steph
            • Marc Carlson
              ... Okie dokie :) Which means that probably everyone should take a deep breath and avoid posting for an hour or so after reading all the other mail in this
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
                > ...Like I said people, I don't have anything against her or her
                > research, just take it with the same pinch of salt you take
                > everything else.
                > Marc, you didn't put anything in my mouth with your last post, I
                > agree with what you said.

                Okie dokie :)

                Which means that probably everyone should take a deep breath and avoid
                posting for an hour or so after reading all the other mail in this
                thread, because no one's being overly critical here by suggesting a
                little critical thinking.

                I will say if you are curious about why Robin doesn't publish - ask
                her. My observation is that she's trying really hard to get
                published, but because of the limited available spaces in academic
                journals that have any interest in her topic, she's having to wait her
                turn and do the slogging through. [in my case, otoh, I've been sucked
                in by the demons of the Internet since it's so much easier to just put
                up another wrb site, and revise the old ones, then it is to go through
                that whole publication dance (in a much more limited field) every time
                something new comes up. But that's MY problem. OTOH, that does
                remind me I have an article on lasts to write FOR publication... ]

                Just remember, if Publication was -easy- it wouldn't be a requirement
                for tenure....

                M/D
              • demontsegur
                ... Just one small point here -- Robin does not require being paid. In negotiating with me for the Philadelphia appearance, she said she only requires her
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...>
                  wrote:
                  > For someone who doesn't do the SCA anymore unless she's a paid
                  > lecturer she gets a lot of SCA press.

                  Just one small point here -- Robin does not require being paid. In
                  negotiating with me for the Philadelphia appearance, she said she
                  only requires her travel, room, and board expenses be covered so
                  that she is not paying her own way out-of-pocket. Rather reasonable -
                  - considering there's a demand for her appearances and by taking
                  time away from her family, she's flying to far-off places to satisfy
                  that demand. She likes to receive an honorarium if and only IF the
                  monies collected can take that hit, as it helps her keep her
                  prodigious slide collection maintained, covers paper costs, etc. She
                  doesn't set the number, either, but leaves it up to the host. I get
                  the distinct impression she is far from getting rich on these
                  appearances. (As a side note, I won't be making one penny of profit
                  because any leftover money after expenses will go entirely to her,
                  with gratitude, because I think she will have more than earned it.)

                  If her lectures with slides are what she's willing to offer us, I
                  guess I'm willing to take that, no further questions asked. No-one
                  owes anyone else anything when they do their own research, right?
                  They can offer or not offer as much or as little of it as they want
                  for public consumption, and that's their perogative. Some people
                  research for their own pleasure. I know I do. I also like to publish
                  what I've found on my website because it's fun to share it, and I
                  will chat incessantly on certain topics in forums like this (hee
                  hee) but that's just me. :^D Everyone else's mileage may vary, and
                  AFAIK, it definitely does vary. To each their own, when it comes to
                  sharing research.

                  In contemplitude, :^)
                  Marcele
                • Ariane H
                  ... But on the other hand (forgive me if someone else has already said this), just because something has been published does not mean it should be taken as the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                    marccarlson20@... wrote:

                    >Just remember, if Publication was -easy- it wouldn't be a requirement
                    >for tenure....
                    >
                    >M/D
                    >

                    But on the other hand (forgive me if someone else has already said
                    this), just because something has been published does not mean it should
                    be taken as the ultimate authority, either. My English seminar this
                    semester, while ostensibly about Elizabethan and Jacobean drama, also
                    requires us to read dozens of scholarly publications and figure out how
                    useful they are for helping us to analyze the play texts, understand
                    their historical background, etc. (Most of it is in literary theory,
                    but there's a lot of "new historicist" work that involves in-depth
                    research into things like period trade and commerce, medicine and
                    humoral theory, clothing, gender roles, etc.) Just as with any field of
                    research, some of this stuff is great, and some of it is seriously
                    flawed. In fact, the prof said of one unhelpful article we discussed
                    today, "This ought to show you how easy it can be to get published!" It
                    wasn't a totally derogatory statement - it would be virtually impossible
                    to avoid publication of all imperfect or incomplete work - but a
                    cautionary one. And even flawed or lacking work usually provokes
                    discussion and debate and further research, which is always a good thing.

                    In this same class today I had an amusing "You know you've been in the
                    SCA too long when..." moment (well, moments). We were reading John
                    Webster's "The White Devil" (1612) and the heroine/villainess of the
                    play is "Vittoria Corombona the famous Venetian Curtizan." I never knew
                    of the existence of this other Vittoria (based on the notorious Umbrian
                    noblewoman Vittoria Accorambini of Gubbio, d. 1585) until last week, but
                    that aside, it was very weird to be sitting in this discussion for two
                    hours, hearing the name "Vittoria" every other minute, and making myself
                    *not* respond to it. ;)


                    Ariane
                    (V. knows no literary theory after Aristotle)
                    ----------------
                    "...Vittoria's performances deconstruct traditional gendered antitheses
                    and expose them as contingent on subjective construction.....Similarly,
                    Vittoria's accomplished performance of masculinity exposes those
                    cultural paradigms that underlie the rhetorical posturing of the men in
                    this play."
                    --C. Luckyj, "Gender, Rhetoric, and Performance in 'The White Devil'"
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