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Re: Robin Netherton visits the Philadelphia area!

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  • demontsegur
    ... professional literature ... Good point, Marc! Having been published somewhere out there or not is not, in and of itself, a marker of worthiness or
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
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      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson"
      <marccarlson20@h...> wrote:
      > Of course, what do I know - I don't have anything in the
      professional literature
      > either :)
      > Marc/Diarmaid

      Good point, Marc! Having been published somewhere 'out there' or not
      is not, in and of itself, a marker of worthiness or integrity (but
      it doesn't hurt, either). As Cainder also pointed out, Robin is up
      against a formidable barrier, copyright-wise, in order to fully
      express her theories on paper.

      I, personally, will jump at my chance to spend a day looking at art
      slides, but I'm a geek that way, and it is a totally separate love
      from my historical clothing research. I feel like I'll be getting
      double the bang for my buck. :^D

      -Marcele
    • sismith42
      ... she s She published something on 12th century clothing in the Winter 2002 edition of TI... but I kinda agree that lecturing & not publishing (how hard is
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
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        > She also hasn't ever published anything as far as I know *and*
        she's

        She published something on 12th century clothing in the Winter 2002
        edition of TI... but I kinda agree that lecturing & not publishing
        (how hard is it to point to other places images can be found if you
        are unable to present them in your work?) is a bit... off-putting.
        Esp when not everyone can attend her lectures.

        Steph
      • Colleen McDonald
        ... Just to ensure clarity, Robin lectures to SCA groups because the groups invite her and she s still fond of the Society, even though she herself has moved
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
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          > For someone who doesn't do the SCA anymore unless she's a paid
          > lecturer she gets a lot of SCA press. >>

          Just to ensure clarity, Robin lectures to SCA groups because the groups
          invite her and she's still fond of the Society, even though she herself has
          moved on. She isn't actively lobbying to lecture for the SCA - folks
          approach her. I think she gets a lot of SCA press because people find her
          work to be helpful and her theories make sense.

          > Since you've been to her
          > lectures so often, you will have heard the repeated admonitions to
          > not record her lectures, not give anyone notes from her lectures
          > without the caveat that they are your interpretation of her words,
          > not her words, and not to give her handouts to anyone who hasn't
          > actually taken her classes.>>

          This is to ensure that she can actually publish her work/theories in an
          academic setting. If she allows recordings or publishes her work in a
          handout for the SCA audience, it will have a damaging effect on her ability
          to publish it and have it be a serious academic work.

          <<Drea has taught at events without needing to have her expenses paid or be
          paid to be
          > there. >>

          Drea is still an active participating member of the SCA (as far as I am
          aware). Robin is not and lectures at events as a courtesy to the group. It
          is not her primary interest (although she's delighted to discuss with us),
          so I don't see it as unreasonable to ask for her travel to be included. If
          she were not lecturing, she wouldn't be in the area.

          I know that I really appreciate all of the time and energy Robin does spend
          working with SCA folks and helping to get SCA folks on the presentation
          schedule at Kalmazoo. Despina, I'm not sure if you realize that Robin is
          one of the session organizers for K'zoo and she actively encourages and
          works with SCA folks to get their information out there to the academic
          community at the Congress? Without Robin's work in this area, I'm not sure
          how many of them would have been accorded the same opportunity by the
          academic community.

          Cainder
          (who organized Robin's lectures in Seattle last August)
        • Marc Carlson
          ... You will pardon me for this, but it s not like THAT s all that hard. As an observation, people who actually do research and make it available tend to get a
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
            > ...For someone who doesn't do the SCA anymore unless she's a paid
            > lecturer she gets a lot of SCA press.

            You will pardon me for this, but it's not like THAT's all that hard.
            As an observation, people who actually do research and make it
            available tend to get a lot of SCA attention. That's not a criticism
            of anyone or anything - it's a system that's been quite useful for me
            (not to mention good to me, and I appreicate that).

            Now, I realize you are talking about theories being just that, and you
            are prefectly correct. Some theories are well founded, some less so,
            and it's good to be skeptical. And yes, I think she'd agree if she
            were here.

            Personally, while I think Robin's observations on Gothic posture as
            they relate to how beauty is seen, and the use of garments to attain
            this are valid (which for the folks who migh not know, doesn't mean
            that I think they are true or not true - they are internally logically
            supportable). I think the whole four cornered dress design is
            intriguing speculation and does not contradict the evidence (note:
            "speculation" in this context is not a criticism, it's simply a
            statement that she's moved outside the established evidence and is
            projecting an extrapilation based on that evidence. In this case that
            extrapolation is I think reasonable give the current paucity of evidence).

            I couldn't agree with you more that (and I hope I'm not putting worse
            into your mouth here - I'm commenting on the general direction what
            you have said appears to be going, not anything you've said directly)
            people should keep in mind that what they are being given by any
            scholar should be examined critically. Personally, I wish people
            would do that with everything (television, books, academic articles,
            and so forth), and not just Robin or myself, but if that's where we
            have to start... Definately point out that the author has no obvious
            publication (OK, I think she did publish an article in the TI a few
            years ago) OTOH, the whole DISTAFF thing is pretty impressive,..
            Kalamazoo doesn't give sessions to just anyone. :)

            Marc/Diarmaid
          • aheilvei
            ... in an ... in a ... her ability ... Drea doesn t seem to have had that problem, or she wouldn t have been invited back to Kalamazoo, nor would she have been
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
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              > This is to ensure that she can actually publish her work/theories
              in an
              > academic setting. If she allows recordings or publishes her work
              in a
              > handout for the SCA audience, it will have a damaging effect on
              her ability
              > to publish it and have it be a serious academic work.


              Drea doesn't seem to have had that problem, or she wouldn't have
              been invited back to Kalamazoo, nor would she have been able to
              publish her book. So I really don't see where giving your
              information to the SCA or people in the SCA would damage your
              credibility with the academic community that much. No, people who
              go to Kalamazoo and are SCA don't shout it from the rooftops, but if
              asked, they usually fess up and are generally admired as someone who
              did all the research without academic backing and resourses.


              Despina, I'm not sure if you realize that Robin is
              > one of the session organizers for K'zoo and she actively
              encourages and
              > works with SCA folks to get their information out there to the
              academic
              > community at the Congress? Without Robin's work in this area, I'm
              not sure
              > how many of them would have been accorded the same opportunity by
              the
              > academic community.


              Yes, I do know what Robin does at Kalamzaoo (and yes, I do think
              that having one's own session there is impressive) and I do think
              that others would have been (and were) afforded the same opportunity
              as Robin. She wasn't the first SCA person to attend Kalamazoo, I'd
              bet. And I know that she isn't the only person at Kalamazoo pushing
              for the inclusion of independant scholars, re-creationists, and re-
              enactors work to be represented and considered there.

              Like I said people, I don't have anything against her or her
              research, just take it with the same pinch of salt you take
              everything else.

              Marc, you didn't put anything in my mouth with your last post, I
              agree with what you said.

              Despina
            • sismith42
              ... work/theories in an academic setting. If she allows recordings or publishes her work in a handout for the SCA audience, it will have a damaging effect
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
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                > > This is to ensure that she can actually publish her
                work/theories in an academic setting. If she allows recordings or
                publishes her work in a handout for the SCA audience, it will have
                a damaging effect on her ability to publish it and have it be a
                serious academic work.
                >
                > Drea doesn't seem to have had that problem, or she wouldn't have
                > been invited back to Kalamazoo, nor would she have been able to
                > publish her book. So I really don't see where giving your

                has Drea published in any academic journals? I believe they can be
                fussy at times about whether something's been published before, and
                I think *that* is what Caindeer was refereing to, rather than
                the "ewww, you do SCA" thing.

                Steph
              • Marc Carlson
                ... Okie dokie :) Which means that probably everyone should take a deep breath and avoid posting for an hour or so after reading all the other mail in this
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
                  > ...Like I said people, I don't have anything against her or her
                  > research, just take it with the same pinch of salt you take
                  > everything else.
                  > Marc, you didn't put anything in my mouth with your last post, I
                  > agree with what you said.

                  Okie dokie :)

                  Which means that probably everyone should take a deep breath and avoid
                  posting for an hour or so after reading all the other mail in this
                  thread, because no one's being overly critical here by suggesting a
                  little critical thinking.

                  I will say if you are curious about why Robin doesn't publish - ask
                  her. My observation is that she's trying really hard to get
                  published, but because of the limited available spaces in academic
                  journals that have any interest in her topic, she's having to wait her
                  turn and do the slogging through. [in my case, otoh, I've been sucked
                  in by the demons of the Internet since it's so much easier to just put
                  up another wrb site, and revise the old ones, then it is to go through
                  that whole publication dance (in a much more limited field) every time
                  something new comes up. But that's MY problem. OTOH, that does
                  remind me I have an article on lasts to write FOR publication... ]

                  Just remember, if Publication was -easy- it wouldn't be a requirement
                  for tenure....

                  M/D
                • demontsegur
                  ... Just one small point here -- Robin does not require being paid. In negotiating with me for the Philadelphia appearance, she said she only requires her
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...>
                    wrote:
                    > For someone who doesn't do the SCA anymore unless she's a paid
                    > lecturer she gets a lot of SCA press.

                    Just one small point here -- Robin does not require being paid. In
                    negotiating with me for the Philadelphia appearance, she said she
                    only requires her travel, room, and board expenses be covered so
                    that she is not paying her own way out-of-pocket. Rather reasonable -
                    - considering there's a demand for her appearances and by taking
                    time away from her family, she's flying to far-off places to satisfy
                    that demand. She likes to receive an honorarium if and only IF the
                    monies collected can take that hit, as it helps her keep her
                    prodigious slide collection maintained, covers paper costs, etc. She
                    doesn't set the number, either, but leaves it up to the host. I get
                    the distinct impression she is far from getting rich on these
                    appearances. (As a side note, I won't be making one penny of profit
                    because any leftover money after expenses will go entirely to her,
                    with gratitude, because I think she will have more than earned it.)

                    If her lectures with slides are what she's willing to offer us, I
                    guess I'm willing to take that, no further questions asked. No-one
                    owes anyone else anything when they do their own research, right?
                    They can offer or not offer as much or as little of it as they want
                    for public consumption, and that's their perogative. Some people
                    research for their own pleasure. I know I do. I also like to publish
                    what I've found on my website because it's fun to share it, and I
                    will chat incessantly on certain topics in forums like this (hee
                    hee) but that's just me. :^D Everyone else's mileage may vary, and
                    AFAIK, it definitely does vary. To each their own, when it comes to
                    sharing research.

                    In contemplitude, :^)
                    Marcele
                  • Ariane H
                    ... But on the other hand (forgive me if someone else has already said this), just because something has been published does not mean it should be taken as the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
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                      marccarlson20@... wrote:

                      >Just remember, if Publication was -easy- it wouldn't be a requirement
                      >for tenure....
                      >
                      >M/D
                      >

                      But on the other hand (forgive me if someone else has already said
                      this), just because something has been published does not mean it should
                      be taken as the ultimate authority, either. My English seminar this
                      semester, while ostensibly about Elizabethan and Jacobean drama, also
                      requires us to read dozens of scholarly publications and figure out how
                      useful they are for helping us to analyze the play texts, understand
                      their historical background, etc. (Most of it is in literary theory,
                      but there's a lot of "new historicist" work that involves in-depth
                      research into things like period trade and commerce, medicine and
                      humoral theory, clothing, gender roles, etc.) Just as with any field of
                      research, some of this stuff is great, and some of it is seriously
                      flawed. In fact, the prof said of one unhelpful article we discussed
                      today, "This ought to show you how easy it can be to get published!" It
                      wasn't a totally derogatory statement - it would be virtually impossible
                      to avoid publication of all imperfect or incomplete work - but a
                      cautionary one. And even flawed or lacking work usually provokes
                      discussion and debate and further research, which is always a good thing.

                      In this same class today I had an amusing "You know you've been in the
                      SCA too long when..." moment (well, moments). We were reading John
                      Webster's "The White Devil" (1612) and the heroine/villainess of the
                      play is "Vittoria Corombona the famous Venetian Curtizan." I never knew
                      of the existence of this other Vittoria (based on the notorious Umbrian
                      noblewoman Vittoria Accorambini of Gubbio, d. 1585) until last week, but
                      that aside, it was very weird to be sitting in this discussion for two
                      hours, hearing the name "Vittoria" every other minute, and making myself
                      *not* respond to it. ;)


                      Ariane
                      (V. knows no literary theory after Aristotle)
                      ----------------
                      "...Vittoria's performances deconstruct traditional gendered antitheses
                      and expose them as contingent on subjective construction.....Similarly,
                      Vittoria's accomplished performance of masculinity exposes those
                      cultural paradigms that underlie the rhetorical posturing of the men in
                      this play."
                      --C. Luckyj, "Gender, Rhetoric, and Performance in 'The White Devil'"
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