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Robin Netherton visits the Philadelphia area!

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  • demontsegur
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    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 30, 2003
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      I'm pleased to announce that Robin Netherton, an
      independent scholar specializing in medieval clothing,
      will visit the Philadelphia, PA area on Saturday,
      February 28, 2004 for a series of lectures about
      feminine clothing styles of the 14th and 15th
      centuries. Ms. Netherton will present five signature
      lectures:

      The Gothic Fitted Dress
      The Greenland Gored Gown
      Will the Real Sideless Surcote Please Stand Up?
      The 15th-Century V-Neck Gown
      The Problem of Women's Heraldic Dress

      The day begins with a casual breakfast reception at
      9am followed by Ms. Netherton's slide-enhanced
      lectures starting at 10am sharp and going until
      dinnertime. Small breaks between lectures and a lunch
      break are included. The beautiful Bryn Mawr College
      campus provides the setting for this day of learning
      and information exchange.

      For more details, see
      http://www.cottesimple.com/robin_netherton/lecture_info.htm

      *** Admission to this event is by advance registration
      only. There will be no at-door admissions. Reserve
      your space early! ***

      -Tasha Kelly McGann
    • Lisa Carter
      Could someone speak on this lady s knowledge and research. I am thinking of going (classes on construction are always a good seminar to take). Thanks. Safe
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 30, 2003
        Could someone speak on this lady's knowledge and research. I am
        thinking of going (classes on construction are always a good seminar to
        take). Thanks.

        Safe Travels,

        KayLeigh
        East
      • demontsegur
        ... seminar to ... Hi Kayleigh! Robin is a bit of a legend in SCA circles, and is respected in the academic community. She was once a part of the SCA, but is
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 30, 2003
          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa Carter" <potterkd2@v...>
          wrote:
          > Could someone speak on this lady's knowledge and research. I am
          > thinking of going (classes on construction are always a good
          seminar to
          > take). Thanks.

          Hi Kayleigh!

          Robin is a bit of a legend in SCA circles, and is respected in the
          academic community. She was once a part of the SCA, but is now
          focused on independent study. Her method seems to be to closely
          study the art and any extant clothing of a particular period, cross-
          reference them with period texts and the various interpretations of
          costume that have developed since then, and then work out theories
          of construction and evolution of selected styles from that. She is
          generally highly respected and I hear her lectures are phenomenal.
          She has traveled extensively throughout America and Europe to
          photograph many works of art which she uses to fill out her
          lectures. She tends to focus on feminine clothing from the 12th
          through the 15th centuries, so much of her work is gleaned from art
          and text of those times. Here's her bio from my web flyer:

          "Robin Netherton is an independent scholar specializing in dress of
          the Middle Ages. Since 1982, she has given lectures and workshops
          for academic audiences, historical societies, reenactment groups,
          and writers' organizations, both on practical aspects of period
          costume and on costume as an approach to social history, art
          history, and literature. She is co-editor (with Gale Owen-Crocker)
          of the academic journal Medieval Clothing & Textiles. As founders of
          the study group DISTAFF, she and Dr. Owen-Crocker organize several
          sessions on medieval dress and textiles each year at the
          International Congresses on Medieval Studies. Ms. Netherton's
          research focuses on the development of the cut of Western European
          clothing in the 12th through 15th centuries, and also on the
          depiction and interpretation of clothing by artists and historians.
          Her analysis of the construction of an early Norman dress style,
          published in the Spring 2001 Costume Research Journal, was reprinted
          in the Winter 2002 Tournaments Illuminated. Robin has a web site in
          progress at http://www.netherton.net/robin/."

          Yes, you should come! :^D (I'm biased, though.)

          -Marcele
        • sismith42
          ... *snip* ... Do you (or does anyone) know if she s published anything on 14th/15th century clothing (ie gothic fitted dress, sideless surcte, etc)? I ve no
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
            > Robin is a bit of a legend in SCA circles, and is respected in the

            *snip*

            > Her analysis of the construction of an early Norman dress style,
            > published in the Spring 2001 Costume Research Journal, was

            Do you (or does anyone) know if she's published anything on 14th/15th
            century clothing (ie gothic fitted dress, sideless surcte, etc)?
            I've no idea if she'll ever have a lecture close enough to where I am
            for me to attend :-(

            Steph
          • ladymorwenna
            ... While she does have lectures on the gothic fitted dress (a term she coined, I believe) and the sideless surcote, as far as I know, she has not published
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
              > Do you (or does anyone) know if she's published anything on 14th/15th
              > century clothing (ie gothic fitted dress, sideless surcte, etc)?
              > I've no idea if she'll ever have a lecture close enough to where I am
              > for me to attend :-(
              >
              > Steph

              While she does have lectures on the gothic fitted dress (a term she
              coined, I believe) and the sideless surcote, as far as I know, she has
              not published anything on those subjects. Also, as far as I know, she
              won't be publishing anything anytime soon. Sorry...

              --Morwenna
            • aheilvei
              Also remember that her theories are just that, theories. No matter how prettily she packages them, or how many paintings she puts together, they are theories
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                Also remember that her theories are just that, theories. No matter
                how prettily she packages them, or how many paintings she puts
                together, they are theories until someone rips into a grave from the
                period and place and finds an intact gown.

                Just a bit of advice.

                Despina
              • ACatelli@manafortbrothers.com
                ... 1. Theory is Not equivalent to wild-ass guess . Perhaps you could get confirmation from anyone you might possibly know in the sciences. (such as,
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                  > Also remember that her theories are just that, theories. No matter
                  > how prettily she packages them, or how many paintings she puts
                  > together, they are theories until someone rips into a grave from the
                  > period and place and finds an intact gown.

                  1. 'Theory' is Not equivalent to 'wild-ass guess'.
                  Perhaps you could get confirmation from anyone you might possibly know in
                  the sciences.
                  (such as, perhaps, your sweetie)

                  2. Robin has great hopes of the Hull finds, as so many of us do. The
                  preliminary findings already published are so tantalizing.

                  3. Yes, I'm biased--I've heard most of her lectures twice & quite lust
                  after her slides. Her theories are based on the closest extant garments
                  with minimal assumptions which she explains and labels as assumptions, with
                  all the confirmation she can get from pictorial and sculptural arts,
                  inventories, and other texts contemporary to the fashion.


                  4. There is no one true answer to the construction of the gothic fitted
                  gown, the versatile layer gown, the 'cotehardie'.
                  Even I admit that, and I have found Robin's evidence and logic very
                  compelling.


                  Ann in CT
                • sismith42
                  ... know in the sciences. (such as, perhaps, your sweetie) I think Despinia was just pointing that out to make sure no-one takes her as gospel or anything.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                    > > Also remember that her theories are just that, theories. No

                    > 1. 'Theory' is Not equivalent to 'wild-ass guess'.
                    > Perhaps you could get confirmation from anyone you might possibly
                    know in the sciences. (such as, perhaps, your sweetie)

                    I think Despinia was just pointing that out to make sure no-one
                    takes her as gospel or anything. Besides, a lot of what people
                    believe in (and risk their lives on-- ie space-travel) are "just
                    theories"... a "fact" is preitty hard to prove... ie,
                    Newton's "laws" don't always work.

                    > 2. Robin has great hopes of the Hull finds, as so many of us do.
                    The preliminary findings already published are so tantalizing.

                    yeah... anyone fancy a roadtrip? ;)

                    > 3. Yes, I'm biased--I've heard most of her lectures twice & quite
                    lust> after her slides. Her theories are based on the closest
                    extant

                    ...but her work on this not being published is a bit of a bad sign:
                    it means either 1)publishers don't considder it "good enough" yet or
                    2) she's not satsified with it/ready to send it off for peer-
                    review. Plus, without it being published, people like me get (let's
                    see: she's doing primary/sencondary research, you hearing it's
                    tertiary, so my reading your notes would be... quartirary?... rather
                    low on the food-chain, at any rate!) info!

                    Steph
                  • Colleen McDonald
                    ... Robin is going to be publishing articles as soon as the new journal that she and Gale Owen-Crocker are editing is up and running. Something to keep in mind
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                      > ...but her work on this not being published is a bit of a bad sign:
                      > it means either 1)publishers don't considder it "good enough" yet or
                      > 2) she's not satsified with it/ready to send it off for peer-
                      > review. Plus, without it being published, people like me get (let's
                      > see: she's doing primary/sencondary research, you hearing it's
                      > tertiary, so my reading your notes would be... quartirary?... rather
                      > low on the food-chain, at any rate!) info! >>

                      Robin is going to be publishing articles as soon as the new journal that she
                      and Gale Owen-Crocker are editing is up and running.

                      Something to keep in mind is that Robin uses *lots* of slides to guide the
                      attendees through the evolution of the theory. Publishing in the format
                      that she lectures in would mean getting permission to include each and every
                      one of those images - time consuming and quite expensive! (She and I
                      discussed this during her recent visit to Seattle to lecture.)

                      In service, I remain

                      Cainder
                    • demontsegur
                      Hi folks, I don t think any of us have to feel defensive or even disagree on any of this, as Robin herself will be the first to admit that she s offering us
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                        Hi folks,

                        I don't think any of us have to feel defensive or even disagree on
                        any of this, as Robin herself will be the first to admit that she's
                        offering us the results of 20 years of study in the areas of art
                        history, textual sources, and archaeological research -- as _her_
                        view. She doesn't claim to have the gospel truth, only educated
                        theories resulting in plausible methods we modern-day folks can use
                        to reconstruct clothing as we think it was made in the time she
                        covers. Who can do better, given the scant extant evidence?

                        It is not Robin's fault if others repeat her work like it can only
                        be the Gospel Truth; I like to work in the same areas she does, and
                        I've had the same problem. I present things with as many caveats as
                        I can remember to muster, like "As far as I know..." or "That I've
                        seen so far..." etc., and well-meaning folks will still pass on some
                        nugget of information to someone else and say, "Because Marcele de
                        Montsegur said so, that's why." :^P

                        If you have an appreciation for period art, and enjoy delving into
                        historical mysteries on the topic of 14th and 15th century feminine
                        clothing, then these lectures are for you. You can bring your free
                        will and inquiring intellect and make your own decision as to
                        whether or not she's got it right or not. You won't be bored, though.

                        I too wish that Robin would publish more in this area, but she has
                        her reasons, I'm sure. I think she's also quite busy at present
                        getting a scholarly journal on medieval dress together, from the
                        editorial side.

                        All best,
                        Marcele
                      • aheilvei
                        I never said that she stinks and her theories are a hock of hooey, I said that they are theories, just like any other theory, and people should remember that
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                          I never said that she stinks and her theories are a hock of hooey, I
                          said that they are theories, just like any other theory, and people
                          should remember that when sitting in the lecture.

                          For someone who doesn't do the SCA anymore unless she's a paid
                          lecturer she gets a lot of SCA press.

                          She also hasn't ever published anything as far as I know *and* she's
                          tremendously clutchy with her work. Since you've been to her
                          lectures so often, you will have heard the repeated admonitions to
                          not record her lectures, not give anyone notes from her lectures
                          without the caveat that they are your interpretation of her words,
                          not her words, and not to give her handouts to anyone who hasn't
                          actually taken her classes.

                          Her website contains a link to her posts on costume lists and the
                          PDF for one of her workshops which doesn't say much really about how
                          to make one of these dresses according to her theories, just that it
                          works. That's it.. oh, and a link to a picture of her in one of
                          these dresses. No publications. Yes, she's presented at the
                          Kalamazoo conference, but so have a fair number of SCA people who
                          *do* publish and put themselves out in the public eye for this -
                          Drea Leed comes immediately to mind. Drea's website contains a lot
                          of her research and articles, as well as those from other people on
                          similar subjects. Drea has also published a book. Drea has taught
                          at events without needing to have her expenses paid or be paid to be
                          there. Sure, she's still in the SCA but she's also an enthusiastic
                          independant scholar who wants others to see her research and use it -
                          unlike Robin who doesn't seem to want it out there.

                          Yes, many of Robin's theories make sense; however, I don't take
                          anyone's word as the final say on something that has absolutely no
                          extant garment evidence to back it up. I have yet to find the
                          person I believe actually walks on water when it comes to theorizing
                          how something was done with no physical evidence. As we've pointed
                          out here, even Janet Arnold made mistakes and she did have the
                          garments in many cases.

                          Despina
                        • Marc Carlson
                          ... It s still a theory even then :) Moving past that into something being the carven in stone fact merely takes media exposure, or prefereably a
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, ACatelli@m... wrote:
                            >> ??? said:
                            >> Also remember that her theories are just that, theories. No matter
                            >> how prettily she packages them, or how many paintings she puts
                            >> together, they are theories until someone rips into a grave from
                            >> the period and place and finds an intact gown.

                            It's still a theory even then :)

                            Moving past that into something being the carven in stone "fact"
                            merely takes media exposure, or prefereably a preponderance of
                            evidence. A garment is not a preponderance.of anything.

                            Honestly, I like Robin - she and I don't always agree on every little
                            detail, but we tend to approach these things from radically different
                            directions. Even so, I have to say she knows her stuff. Of course,
                            what do I know - I don't have anything in the professional literature
                            either :)

                            Marc/Diarmaid
                          • demontsegur
                            ... professional literature ... Good point, Marc! Having been published somewhere out there or not is not, in and of itself, a marker of worthiness or
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson"
                              <marccarlson20@h...> wrote:
                              > Of course, what do I know - I don't have anything in the
                              professional literature
                              > either :)
                              > Marc/Diarmaid

                              Good point, Marc! Having been published somewhere 'out there' or not
                              is not, in and of itself, a marker of worthiness or integrity (but
                              it doesn't hurt, either). As Cainder also pointed out, Robin is up
                              against a formidable barrier, copyright-wise, in order to fully
                              express her theories on paper.

                              I, personally, will jump at my chance to spend a day looking at art
                              slides, but I'm a geek that way, and it is a totally separate love
                              from my historical clothing research. I feel like I'll be getting
                              double the bang for my buck. :^D

                              -Marcele
                            • sismith42
                              ... she s She published something on 12th century clothing in the Winter 2002 edition of TI... but I kinda agree that lecturing & not publishing (how hard is
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                                > She also hasn't ever published anything as far as I know *and*
                                she's

                                She published something on 12th century clothing in the Winter 2002
                                edition of TI... but I kinda agree that lecturing & not publishing
                                (how hard is it to point to other places images can be found if you
                                are unable to present them in your work?) is a bit... off-putting.
                                Esp when not everyone can attend her lectures.

                                Steph
                              • Colleen McDonald
                                ... Just to ensure clarity, Robin lectures to SCA groups because the groups invite her and she s still fond of the Society, even though she herself has moved
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                                  > For someone who doesn't do the SCA anymore unless she's a paid
                                  > lecturer she gets a lot of SCA press. >>

                                  Just to ensure clarity, Robin lectures to SCA groups because the groups
                                  invite her and she's still fond of the Society, even though she herself has
                                  moved on. She isn't actively lobbying to lecture for the SCA - folks
                                  approach her. I think she gets a lot of SCA press because people find her
                                  work to be helpful and her theories make sense.

                                  > Since you've been to her
                                  > lectures so often, you will have heard the repeated admonitions to
                                  > not record her lectures, not give anyone notes from her lectures
                                  > without the caveat that they are your interpretation of her words,
                                  > not her words, and not to give her handouts to anyone who hasn't
                                  > actually taken her classes.>>

                                  This is to ensure that she can actually publish her work/theories in an
                                  academic setting. If she allows recordings or publishes her work in a
                                  handout for the SCA audience, it will have a damaging effect on her ability
                                  to publish it and have it be a serious academic work.

                                  <<Drea has taught at events without needing to have her expenses paid or be
                                  paid to be
                                  > there. >>

                                  Drea is still an active participating member of the SCA (as far as I am
                                  aware). Robin is not and lectures at events as a courtesy to the group. It
                                  is not her primary interest (although she's delighted to discuss with us),
                                  so I don't see it as unreasonable to ask for her travel to be included. If
                                  she were not lecturing, she wouldn't be in the area.

                                  I know that I really appreciate all of the time and energy Robin does spend
                                  working with SCA folks and helping to get SCA folks on the presentation
                                  schedule at Kalmazoo. Despina, I'm not sure if you realize that Robin is
                                  one of the session organizers for K'zoo and she actively encourages and
                                  works with SCA folks to get their information out there to the academic
                                  community at the Congress? Without Robin's work in this area, I'm not sure
                                  how many of them would have been accorded the same opportunity by the
                                  academic community.

                                  Cainder
                                  (who organized Robin's lectures in Seattle last August)
                                • Marc Carlson
                                  ... You will pardon me for this, but it s not like THAT s all that hard. As an observation, people who actually do research and make it available tend to get a
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
                                    > ...For someone who doesn't do the SCA anymore unless she's a paid
                                    > lecturer she gets a lot of SCA press.

                                    You will pardon me for this, but it's not like THAT's all that hard.
                                    As an observation, people who actually do research and make it
                                    available tend to get a lot of SCA attention. That's not a criticism
                                    of anyone or anything - it's a system that's been quite useful for me
                                    (not to mention good to me, and I appreicate that).

                                    Now, I realize you are talking about theories being just that, and you
                                    are prefectly correct. Some theories are well founded, some less so,
                                    and it's good to be skeptical. And yes, I think she'd agree if she
                                    were here.

                                    Personally, while I think Robin's observations on Gothic posture as
                                    they relate to how beauty is seen, and the use of garments to attain
                                    this are valid (which for the folks who migh not know, doesn't mean
                                    that I think they are true or not true - they are internally logically
                                    supportable). I think the whole four cornered dress design is
                                    intriguing speculation and does not contradict the evidence (note:
                                    "speculation" in this context is not a criticism, it's simply a
                                    statement that she's moved outside the established evidence and is
                                    projecting an extrapilation based on that evidence. In this case that
                                    extrapolation is I think reasonable give the current paucity of evidence).

                                    I couldn't agree with you more that (and I hope I'm not putting worse
                                    into your mouth here - I'm commenting on the general direction what
                                    you have said appears to be going, not anything you've said directly)
                                    people should keep in mind that what they are being given by any
                                    scholar should be examined critically. Personally, I wish people
                                    would do that with everything (television, books, academic articles,
                                    and so forth), and not just Robin or myself, but if that's where we
                                    have to start... Definately point out that the author has no obvious
                                    publication (OK, I think she did publish an article in the TI a few
                                    years ago) OTOH, the whole DISTAFF thing is pretty impressive,..
                                    Kalamazoo doesn't give sessions to just anyone. :)

                                    Marc/Diarmaid
                                  • aheilvei
                                    ... in an ... in a ... her ability ... Drea doesn t seem to have had that problem, or she wouldn t have been invited back to Kalamazoo, nor would she have been
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                                      > This is to ensure that she can actually publish her work/theories
                                      in an
                                      > academic setting. If she allows recordings or publishes her work
                                      in a
                                      > handout for the SCA audience, it will have a damaging effect on
                                      her ability
                                      > to publish it and have it be a serious academic work.


                                      Drea doesn't seem to have had that problem, or she wouldn't have
                                      been invited back to Kalamazoo, nor would she have been able to
                                      publish her book. So I really don't see where giving your
                                      information to the SCA or people in the SCA would damage your
                                      credibility with the academic community that much. No, people who
                                      go to Kalamazoo and are SCA don't shout it from the rooftops, but if
                                      asked, they usually fess up and are generally admired as someone who
                                      did all the research without academic backing and resourses.


                                      Despina, I'm not sure if you realize that Robin is
                                      > one of the session organizers for K'zoo and she actively
                                      encourages and
                                      > works with SCA folks to get their information out there to the
                                      academic
                                      > community at the Congress? Without Robin's work in this area, I'm
                                      not sure
                                      > how many of them would have been accorded the same opportunity by
                                      the
                                      > academic community.


                                      Yes, I do know what Robin does at Kalamzaoo (and yes, I do think
                                      that having one's own session there is impressive) and I do think
                                      that others would have been (and were) afforded the same opportunity
                                      as Robin. She wasn't the first SCA person to attend Kalamazoo, I'd
                                      bet. And I know that she isn't the only person at Kalamazoo pushing
                                      for the inclusion of independant scholars, re-creationists, and re-
                                      enactors work to be represented and considered there.

                                      Like I said people, I don't have anything against her or her
                                      research, just take it with the same pinch of salt you take
                                      everything else.

                                      Marc, you didn't put anything in my mouth with your last post, I
                                      agree with what you said.

                                      Despina
                                    • sismith42
                                      ... work/theories in an academic setting. If she allows recordings or publishes her work in a handout for the SCA audience, it will have a damaging effect
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                                        > > This is to ensure that she can actually publish her
                                        work/theories in an academic setting. If she allows recordings or
                                        publishes her work in a handout for the SCA audience, it will have
                                        a damaging effect on her ability to publish it and have it be a
                                        serious academic work.
                                        >
                                        > Drea doesn't seem to have had that problem, or she wouldn't have
                                        > been invited back to Kalamazoo, nor would she have been able to
                                        > publish her book. So I really don't see where giving your

                                        has Drea published in any academic journals? I believe they can be
                                        fussy at times about whether something's been published before, and
                                        I think *that* is what Caindeer was refereing to, rather than
                                        the "ewww, you do SCA" thing.

                                        Steph
                                      • Marc Carlson
                                        ... Okie dokie :) Which means that probably everyone should take a deep breath and avoid posting for an hour or so after reading all the other mail in this
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
                                          > ...Like I said people, I don't have anything against her or her
                                          > research, just take it with the same pinch of salt you take
                                          > everything else.
                                          > Marc, you didn't put anything in my mouth with your last post, I
                                          > agree with what you said.

                                          Okie dokie :)

                                          Which means that probably everyone should take a deep breath and avoid
                                          posting for an hour or so after reading all the other mail in this
                                          thread, because no one's being overly critical here by suggesting a
                                          little critical thinking.

                                          I will say if you are curious about why Robin doesn't publish - ask
                                          her. My observation is that she's trying really hard to get
                                          published, but because of the limited available spaces in academic
                                          journals that have any interest in her topic, she's having to wait her
                                          turn and do the slogging through. [in my case, otoh, I've been sucked
                                          in by the demons of the Internet since it's so much easier to just put
                                          up another wrb site, and revise the old ones, then it is to go through
                                          that whole publication dance (in a much more limited field) every time
                                          something new comes up. But that's MY problem. OTOH, that does
                                          remind me I have an article on lasts to write FOR publication... ]

                                          Just remember, if Publication was -easy- it wouldn't be a requirement
                                          for tenure....

                                          M/D
                                        • demontsegur
                                          ... Just one small point here -- Robin does not require being paid. In negotiating with me for the Philadelphia appearance, she said she only requires her
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > For someone who doesn't do the SCA anymore unless she's a paid
                                            > lecturer she gets a lot of SCA press.

                                            Just one small point here -- Robin does not require being paid. In
                                            negotiating with me for the Philadelphia appearance, she said she
                                            only requires her travel, room, and board expenses be covered so
                                            that she is not paying her own way out-of-pocket. Rather reasonable -
                                            - considering there's a demand for her appearances and by taking
                                            time away from her family, she's flying to far-off places to satisfy
                                            that demand. She likes to receive an honorarium if and only IF the
                                            monies collected can take that hit, as it helps her keep her
                                            prodigious slide collection maintained, covers paper costs, etc. She
                                            doesn't set the number, either, but leaves it up to the host. I get
                                            the distinct impression she is far from getting rich on these
                                            appearances. (As a side note, I won't be making one penny of profit
                                            because any leftover money after expenses will go entirely to her,
                                            with gratitude, because I think she will have more than earned it.)

                                            If her lectures with slides are what she's willing to offer us, I
                                            guess I'm willing to take that, no further questions asked. No-one
                                            owes anyone else anything when they do their own research, right?
                                            They can offer or not offer as much or as little of it as they want
                                            for public consumption, and that's their perogative. Some people
                                            research for their own pleasure. I know I do. I also like to publish
                                            what I've found on my website because it's fun to share it, and I
                                            will chat incessantly on certain topics in forums like this (hee
                                            hee) but that's just me. :^D Everyone else's mileage may vary, and
                                            AFAIK, it definitely does vary. To each their own, when it comes to
                                            sharing research.

                                            In contemplitude, :^)
                                            Marcele
                                          • Ariane H
                                            ... But on the other hand (forgive me if someone else has already said this), just because something has been published does not mean it should be taken as the
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Dec 1, 2003
                                              marccarlson20@... wrote:

                                              >Just remember, if Publication was -easy- it wouldn't be a requirement
                                              >for tenure....
                                              >
                                              >M/D
                                              >

                                              But on the other hand (forgive me if someone else has already said
                                              this), just because something has been published does not mean it should
                                              be taken as the ultimate authority, either. My English seminar this
                                              semester, while ostensibly about Elizabethan and Jacobean drama, also
                                              requires us to read dozens of scholarly publications and figure out how
                                              useful they are for helping us to analyze the play texts, understand
                                              their historical background, etc. (Most of it is in literary theory,
                                              but there's a lot of "new historicist" work that involves in-depth
                                              research into things like period trade and commerce, medicine and
                                              humoral theory, clothing, gender roles, etc.) Just as with any field of
                                              research, some of this stuff is great, and some of it is seriously
                                              flawed. In fact, the prof said of one unhelpful article we discussed
                                              today, "This ought to show you how easy it can be to get published!" It
                                              wasn't a totally derogatory statement - it would be virtually impossible
                                              to avoid publication of all imperfect or incomplete work - but a
                                              cautionary one. And even flawed or lacking work usually provokes
                                              discussion and debate and further research, which is always a good thing.

                                              In this same class today I had an amusing "You know you've been in the
                                              SCA too long when..." moment (well, moments). We were reading John
                                              Webster's "The White Devil" (1612) and the heroine/villainess of the
                                              play is "Vittoria Corombona the famous Venetian Curtizan." I never knew
                                              of the existence of this other Vittoria (based on the notorious Umbrian
                                              noblewoman Vittoria Accorambini of Gubbio, d. 1585) until last week, but
                                              that aside, it was very weird to be sitting in this discussion for two
                                              hours, hearing the name "Vittoria" every other minute, and making myself
                                              *not* respond to it. ;)


                                              Ariane
                                              (V. knows no literary theory after Aristotle)
                                              ----------------
                                              "...Vittoria's performances deconstruct traditional gendered antitheses
                                              and expose them as contingent on subjective construction.....Similarly,
                                              Vittoria's accomplished performance of masculinity exposes those
                                              cultural paradigms that underlie the rhetorical posturing of the men in
                                              this play."
                                              --C. Luckyj, "Gender, Rhetoric, and Performance in 'The White Devil'"
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