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14C Welsh Jupon

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  • Asha
    I have been asked to make a 14th Century Welsh Jupon for a fighter. However, can anyone assist me in locating a picture, documentation, pattern, or anything
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 24, 2003
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      I have been asked to make a 14th Century Welsh Jupon for a fighter. However, can anyone assist me in locating a picture, documentation, pattern, or anything that will guide me? The fighter has a goal to be as authentic as possible, I am going to try my best.




      Asha Delgejin, AoA GdS

      Barony of Borealis
      Principality of Avacal
      Kingdom of An Tir


      ---------------------------------
      Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Paula
      Greetings good gentles, I be Lady Elizabeth Wyvernsmark, from the far off Kingdom of Calontir, Shire of Spinning Winds, I be also the Arts and Sciences officer
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 25, 2003
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        Greetings good gentles,

        I be Lady Elizabeth Wyvernsmark, from the far off Kingdom of Calontir,
        Shire of Spinning Winds, I be also the Arts and Sciences officer this
        (Spinning Winds) Shire, And I hold an Award of Arms granted to me in the
        Kingdom of the west.
        I have been in the SCA. of and on, since 1975.

        I originally started in the SCA in the Kingdom of the West, Barony of
        Golden Rivers, I have served as a Deputy Constable, Constable, and
        Principality Constable, (Cynagua).

        I have seen the Barony of Golden Rivers grow into the Principality of
        Cynagua. And indeed, I even knew Baron Sir Kevin Perrigrine.

        In the intervening time, there have been many changes,

        I began my journey to far off Calontir about 12 years ago, of course,
        as any travelers can tell ye, there are many stops along the way, and
        indeed, many hazards, but verily we succeeded in out quest, and my companion
        and I doth arrived to our destination and hence made contact with the
        Seneschal of Spinning Winds, and so dear gentles, begins my new life in the
        Kingdom of Calontir.


        As I am MoAS for the Shire of Spinning Winds, I wish to learn all I can
        about Authenticity.

        Elizabeth Wyvernsmark, AoA, MoAS - Shire of Spinning Winds.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • demontsegur
        ... fighter. However, can anyone assist me in locating a picture, documentation, pattern, or anything that will guide me? The fighter has a goal to be as
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 25, 2003
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Asha <superjanet2002@y...>
          wrote:
          > I have been asked to make a 14th Century Welsh Jupon for a
          fighter. However, can anyone assist me in locating a picture,
          documentation, pattern, or anything that will guide me? The fighter
          has a goal to be as authentic as possible, I am going to try my best.

          Greetings Asha,

          Caveat: I'm not an expert on military stuff nor on Welsh-anything,
          so what I say here has to be taken with a grain of salt. I think it
          might be useful from a general clothing-research POV, though.

          And, in case none of what I say below is really helpful, you can
          alway subscribe to aotc, which is a Yahoo Group populated with
          people who research iauthentic 14th and 15th century military
          clothing, among other things.

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aotc/

          The 14th century spawned a huge range of styles from simple to
          complex in tailoring. It might be best to decide on a general time
          frame, like "1340 to 1350" or "1360 to 1370" as examples, and then
          seek out the English (and maybe even French and Flemish) art of the
          period to get a feel for the silhouette of the military clothing
          under and over the armour. AFAIK, there aren't any Welsh 14th
          century jupons or male cottes extant (unless there's something yet
          undiscovered?).(* see below)

          English brasses, which can be found in numerous books on that
          subject, might be a good place to start, art-wise. These rubbings
          give highly stylized glimpses at military costume, at least for
          those of a high social standing. One readily available book is
          called _Brass Rubbings_, by Muriel Clayton. Another one is called
          _Through England on My Knees_, by Betsey Lewis. (There are plenty of
          others too, but I'm not recalling titles just now.) Also, if you
          google on "English brass rubbings" you'll probably find a ton of
          them online.

          There are a ton of other ways to go about this search, but I'll let
          others have a crack at it.

          I'm a bit shakey on the relationship of clothing influences between
          England proper and Wales, and am not sure how much of the Welsh
          culture stood separate and parellel to English culture versus the
          militarily-dominant English culture 'trickling down' to Wales. I'm
          betting someone here and/or on aotc can help quite a bit with that.

          In fact, take what I say with a boulder of salt! <grin>

          Good luck,
          Marcele
          * What we do have (besides the tattered, short-sleeved jupon of
          Edward, the Black Prince of England) from that general time frame in
          good condition are a few French garments, like the so-
          called "pourpoint de Charles de Blois" and the "arming coat of
          Charles VI", both late 14th century at the earliest. There's some
          argument about the dating of these garments, especially the Charles
          de Blois cotte -- some feel it is most certainly early 15thc. while
          others insist it's circa 1364 or so. My current thinking is that the
          silhouette is much more 1360s-ish than early 15thc, but that the
          grande assiette construction of the chest and sleeves was probably
          at its most popular at the turn of the 15thc, when we (apparently)
          first find references to the term "grande assiette" in the records
          of a royal tailor. (Adrien Harmand supplies the text in his book
          _Jeanne d'Arc: Son armure et ses costumes..._) I'm more inclined to
          believe that the pourpoint/cotte is from the 1360s or perhaps as
          late as the 1380s, but not later than that, if we're to believe the
          copious art sources which show universally looser male clothing by
          the 15thc.
        • Talia
          Is there a historical pattern company that makes an authentic (well, as we know it anyway) pattern for a 14th c. jupon? I d like to get my hands on a good one
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 25, 2003
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            Is there a historical pattern company that makes an authentic (well, as we
            know it anyway) pattern for a 14th c. jupon? I'd like to get my hands on a
            good one and make it once before heading off in my own direction and making
            my own pattern for one.

            Talia
          • wodeford
            ... (well, as we ... hands on a ... and making ... http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/patterns.htm has two packets of medieval military patterns which might get you
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 25, 2003
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Talia" <talia@k...> wrote:
              > Is there a historical pattern company that makes an authentic
              (well, as we
              > know it anyway) pattern for a 14th c. jupon? I'd like to get my
              hands on a
              > good one and make it once before heading off in my own direction
              and making
              > my own pattern for one.

              http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/patterns.htm has two packets of medieval
              military patterns which might get you started. Not having made any of
              these I cannot comment on how good they are, though I did a
              houppelande from one of their pattern packs that came out nicely.

              Jehanne de Wodeford
            • Heather Rose Jones
              ... The closest thing I can think of to visual evidence would be a manuscript illustration of Owain Lawgoch s mercenary company (Ms. hist helv. I, 1, Tf. S.
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 25, 2003
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                At 6:25 PM -0500 11/24/03, Asha wrote:
                >I have been asked to make a 14th Century Welsh Jupon for a fighter.
                >However, can anyone assist me in locating a picture, documentation,
                >pattern, or anything that will guide me? The fighter has a goal to
                >be as authentic as possible, I am going to try my best.

                The closest thing I can think of to visual evidence would be a
                manuscript illustration of Owain Lawgoch's mercenary company (Ms.
                hist helv. I, 1, Tf. S. 181 at the Burgerbibliothek Bern -- it's
                reproduced on the dust jacket to Michael Siddons' "The Development of
                Welsh Heraldry" vol. I). Problem is, the manuscript dates over a
                century later than the mid-late 14th c. events being depicted, so its
                usefulness for 14th c. costume is probably negligible.

                Tangwystyl
                --
                *****
                Heather Rose Jones
                hrjones@...
                *****
              • Mary Bader Montgomery
                ... I don t know if they have redrawn these over the years, but when I first used them, when they first came out, I noticed that the sleeves and armholes were
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 26, 2003
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                  At 04:44 PM 11/25/03 +0000, you wrote:
                  >--- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Talia" <talia@k...> wrote:
                  > > Is there a historical pattern company that makes an authentic
                  >(well, as we
                  > > know it anyway) pattern for a 14th c. jupon? I'd like to get my
                  >hands on a
                  > > good one and make it once before heading off in my own direction
                  >and making
                  > > my own pattern for one.
                  >
                  ><http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/patterns.htm>http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/patterns.htm
                  >has two packets of medieval
                  >military patterns which might get you started. Not having made any of
                  >these I cannot comment on how good they are, though I did a
                  >houppelande from one of their pattern packs that came out nicely.
                  >
                  >Jehanne de Wodeford

                  I don't know if they have redrawn these over the years, but when I first
                  used them, when they first came out, I noticed that the sleeves and
                  armholes were very small for the size of the rest of the garments. Other
                  than that, the patterns were quite good.

                  Mary Taran


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sunny Medlock
                  ... medieval military patterns which might get you started. Not having made any of these I cannot comment on how good they are, though I did a houppelande from
                  Message 8 of 8 , Dec 3, 2003
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Talia" <talia@k...> wrote:
                    > > Is there a historical pattern company that makes an authentic
                    > > (well, as we know it anyway) pattern for a 14th c. jupon? ...
                    >
                    > http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/patterns.htm has two packets of
                    medieval military patterns which might get you started. Not having
                    made any of these I cannot comment on how good they are, though I did
                    a houppelande from one of their pattern packs that came out nicely.
                    >
                    > Jehanne de Wodeford

                    I have made a few of their patterns, and in my opinion, they are for
                    reference only. Here's some of what I have learned...
                    1. Trace all pattern pieces onto some other paper. Oftentimes 2
                    pattern pieces are overlapping, so to get to one you have to destroy
                    the other...
                    2. ALWAYS make a muslin. A friend and I were making the Men's
                    Italian Ren Doublet. The instructions say to gather the sleeve into
                    the armscye. The picture on the envelope shows a sleeve gathered
                    into the armscye. The actuall sleeve does _not_ gather into the
                    armscye. We did not make a muslin first, assuming that the pattern
                    would have been drafted as the picture indicated, did not have enough
                    fabric to cut a new sleeve, and had to come up with a creative
                    solution to make what we had work. Most frustrating!
                    3. Read the instructions-twice. I have found them confusing at best
                    and needed to assemble things a bit differently than the pattern
                    recomended.

                    In my experience, patterns from Medieval Miscelania are a good
                    starting point for more experienced sewers. There are too many
                    complications for the newbie to gain any sort of confidence from

                    Elisabetta (who fantisizes about creating her own line of period
                    patterns)
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