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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: My SCA Persona

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  • hasoferet@aol.com
    In a message dated 9/1/03 10:22:26 AM, Christina_Lemke@hotmail.com writes:
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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      In a message dated 9/1/03 10:22:26 AM, Christina_Lemke@... writes:

      << And especially how can you the other women in this

      group read this and not react? >>

      My understanding of the original post was that the person in question took a
      twelve year old girl as his wife. Rape was not mentioned. I agree that since
      he appears to have been an archbishop, this is _highly_ improbable, and twelve
      is dang young for a girl to marry in most of our times and places. (Not all.)

      However, while the persona story as posted doesn't strike me as real
      historical, it also doesn't strike me as the monstrosity you're clearly seeing. All of
      history, and the present day as well, is full of enough horrors happening to
      women to keep me fully nauseated at all times, without being overly concerned
      about fictional accounts from the thirteenth century.

      I'm sorry this has disturbed you so deeply, (I've been there), although I
      think some of your concern is misplaced (the modern day Viscontis are probably
      pretty well used to the idea that some of their ancestors were right bastards.
      You didn't rule a Renaissance city only by being a sweetheart.) Please don't
      interpret my silence on it as indifference to the rights of children and women,
      only to a sense that this particular situation was not one that needed my
      social/political intervention.

      Be well,

      Raquel

      +____________________________________+
      Do not beg. Do not refuse. Preserve. Bestow.

      --Colman mac Beognae, 'The Alphabet of Devotion
    • cti1572
      Just for the record, it appears that there is going to be one less new person learning from this group about authenticity. I ve been in private contact with
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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        Just for the record, it appears that there is going to be one less
        new person learning from this group about authenticity. I've been in
        private contact with this person, and the intensity of the flame that
        just kept coming at her has driven this lady (who is so hungry for
        knowledge) off the list. Too bad she couldn't have been treated like
        the last person with a "kidnapped by pirates" persona story. When you
        hit someone with a tank, you often don't get a second chance to make
        it all better.

        -jehan
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... Thanks!! You re a lifesaver. (Wintergreen --- not one of those icky fruit flavors, either!) Effingham
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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          Tangwystyl wrote:

          >
          > >BTW, I *did* get your wonderful, lengthy response to my Q. about
          > >Welsh -- As it came during the War, I stuck it and all the more
          > >lengthy messages needing responses into my "deal with this" file --
          > >which I was never able to deal with owing to the recent disc
          > >Whoopsie. If by chance your computer archives messages you send, I'd
          > >love to see it again.
          >
          > Since I haven't purged my "copies of outgoing messages" file
          > recently, I should still have it. (In theory, every month or so, I
          > go through and sort off all the outgoing messages that I want to
          > archive. Right now, it's been about three months ....) I'll forward
          > it to you privately.
          >

          Thanks!! You're a lifesaver. (Wintergreen --- not one of those icky fruit flavors, either!)


          Effingham
        • Jan C. Lane
          Another note on that 12-year-old girl being married....marriages among persons that young have been documented. However, the marriage may not have been
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 2, 2003
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            Another note on that 12-year-old girl being married....marriages among
            persons that young have been documented. However, the marriage may not have
            been consummated for some time. Unless he's a pedophile (and we WON'T go
            there), an older man taking a child bride would be quite aware of the need
            to wait until she was mature enough for consummation.

            In service,

            Jannifer
          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
            In a message dated 9/1/2003 3:10:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... It was your response that wasn t civil. There are lots of other ways you could have told
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 2, 2003
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              In a message dated 9/1/2003 3:10:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

              > And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person
              > raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not
              > funny or interesting and I don't think it's an appropriate part of a
              > persona's story. How can you guys read this and obviousy think it's
              > nothing special? And especially how can you the other women in this
              > group read this and not react?
              >

              It was your response that wasn't civil. There are lots of other ways you
              could have told this girl that you didn't care for her persona story without
              making her out to be an insensitive nitwit.
              And frankly, things like rape did happen to 12 year old girls in history, and
              there are an awful lot of real people in history who might have had a similar
              persona story to a young girl married off to an older man, possibly against
              her will...the story of January and May in the Canterbury Tales is a period
              fictional example, and the wife of Le Menagier of Paris a real-life one. In any
              case, she never said that Ottone Visconti raped her mother; she said that "He
              then took my mother and made her his wife as she was only 12 year old."
              And if you aren't aware that churchmen, up to and including some popes, had
              mistresses and fathered children, (and I'd bet some of the deMedici popes
              weren't above rape), and that clerical celibacy was not always a required or even
              accepted thing even during the SCA period, then you need to read some more
              history yourself.

              Brangwayna Morgan


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