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Anti-flamage (and Re: My SCA Persona)

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  • xina007eu
    ... And I felt cold and shakey when I read the bit about raping a 12 year old girl. How can you read this story and shrug it off as something normal or
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sismith42" <sismith42@y...>
      wrote:
      >
      > > This is not information but fantasy. Ottone Visconti, as you say,
      >
      > Wow. Why the viscious attack? I feel cold & shakey, & it wasn;t
      > even directed at me!
      >

      And I felt cold and shakey when I read the bit about raping a 12 year
      old girl. How can you read this story and shrug it off as something
      normal or acceptable?
    • Steven Proctor
      Actually what she *said* was made her his wife , which would preclude it being rape, in at least the technical sense. While it may be abhorrent to the modern
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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        Actually what she *said* was 'made her his wife', which would preclude
        it being rape, in at least the technical sense. While it may be
        abhorrent to the modern sensibilities, it is not unheard of in period.
        While it's not something *I* would include in a persona story, or
        encourage others to (as it's far more the exception than the rule) it's
        not a completely invalid.

        Please moderate you tone. I understand that you are feeling strongly
        about this, but attacking other list members is not going to make your
        point.

        Ta

        Adhemar


        xina007eu wrote:

        > And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person
        > raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not
        > funny or interesting and I don't think it's an appropriate part of a
        > persona's story. How can you guys read this and obviousy think it's
        > nothing special? And especially how can you the other women in this
        > group read this and not react?
        > Best regards,
        >
        > Christina

        --
        It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
        It is by the beans of Java that the thoughts acquire speed,
        the hands acquire the shakes; the shakes become a warning.
        It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
      • sismith42
        ... year old girl. How can you read this story and shrug it off as By not reading He then took my mother and made her his wife as she was only 12 year old.
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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          > And I felt cold and shakey when I read the bit about raping a 12
          year old girl. How can you read this story and shrug it off as

          By not reading " He then took my mother and made her his wife as she
          was only 12 year old. Or something to this affect." as a rape
          scene. Maybe it was intended to mean that & I'm naieve, maybe she
          _didn't_ mean that interpretation at all... Benefit of the doubt,
          innocent until proven guilty, & all that...

          >something normal or acceptable?

          Why do you think I'm looking at this as normal or acceptable? The
          attitude of this list has luckilly been (as I see it) "try not to
          bat an eye and educate" (remember the girl who wanted to do
          a "kidnapped by pirates" persona, and how people were kind about
          disuading her... and found ways to give her something similar, but
          historically correct?). You made a lot of good, accurate points...
          but the anger in it. wow.

          Stefania
        • raven_moonsinger
          Dear Christina, It s not that rape is acceptable or civil, especially to children. And it s also not that one should not try to explain to someone the
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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            Dear Christina,

            It's not that rape is acceptable or civil, especially to children.
            And it's also not that one should not try to explain to someone the
            implications of what they had just written. I don't think she (the
            author of the persona story) was deliberately trying to slander or
            hurt anyone, but just hadn't realized the full consequenses of her
            story (sort of like if you push over a chair with a glass of milk on
            it, you might forget about the milk and then be surprised to have it
            covering your carpet). The problem is that you reacted to her not as
            a person who might have made a mistake, but as some sort of terrible
            evil person who was deliberately trying to hurt someone. If she were
            right in front of you, I doubt you'd have said something that
            strongly. Before yelling at her, you could have simply asked, "Did
            you realize that your persona story implies that this rape actually
            happened?" and go on about meeting a real Visconti descendant (that
            part was also fine and very educative) as well as age discrepancies,
            etc. It just seems that you forgot you were writing to a real person
            who has feelings and makes mistakes. If you had done something
            without thinking (and we all have), I'm sure you wouldn't have wanted
            her (or someone else) to come screaming at you for it before/while
            explaining why. You'd have wanted to find out why FIRST and then, if
            you kept doing it, THEN you might expect some backlash. In other
            words, if you had explained to her that her story had these
            implications and then she wrote a new story, very similar to the
            first, but perhaps with different historical persons, you could then
            say something like, "You're still doing it!". She made the mistake
            of forgetting that historical people really existed, and I hope you
            made the mistake of forgetting she did (that is, I hope it was a
            mistake and not a deliberate hurting of her knowing that it could
            have been a mistake and that she is a real person).

            *shrugs* I agree that you were too harsh on her, not because you
            didn't raise good points, but because you assumed she was
            deliberately trying to hurt someone, rather than making a mistake or
            not realizing the full implications of what she was doing. We all
            get lots (too many at times) of messages in our inboxes, and it is
            sometimes difficult to rememeber that the people who wrote them are
            as real as we are. In fact, I think Adhemar's instruction on "Let's
            try to be civil" applies to everyone, not just you, but to those of
            us who might write to you ourselves. And I am truly hoping that I
            have not said anything offensive, as I am merely trying to explain
            why your remarks might have hurt her. I was definitely *not* trying
            to hurt you in the process, and I hope no one else did/does.

            Alienor

            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "xina007eu"
            <Christina_Lemke@h...> wrote:
            > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Steven Proctor
            <sproctor@s...>
            > wrote:
            > > OK, this pinged pretty damn high on my harsh-o-meter. Lets try to
            > keep
            > > things civil, people....
            > >
            > > Ta
            > >
            > > Adhemar
            > > List Moderator
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > xina007eu wrote:
            > >
            > > > This is not information but fantasy.
            > > >
            > > > Christina
            > >
            > > --
            > > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
            > > It is by the beans of Java that the thoughts acquire speed,
            > > the hands acquire the shakes; the shakes become a warning.
            > > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
            >
            > And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person
            > raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not
            > funny or interesting and I don't think it's an appropriate part of
            a
            > persona's story. How can you guys read this and obviousy think it's
            > nothing special? And especially how can you the other women in this
            > group read this and not react?
            > Best regards,
            >
            > Christina
          • hasoferet@aol.com
            In a message dated 9/1/03 10:22:26 AM, Christina_Lemke@hotmail.com writes:
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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              In a message dated 9/1/03 10:22:26 AM, Christina_Lemke@... writes:

              << And especially how can you the other women in this

              group read this and not react? >>

              My understanding of the original post was that the person in question took a
              twelve year old girl as his wife. Rape was not mentioned. I agree that since
              he appears to have been an archbishop, this is _highly_ improbable, and twelve
              is dang young for a girl to marry in most of our times and places. (Not all.)

              However, while the persona story as posted doesn't strike me as real
              historical, it also doesn't strike me as the monstrosity you're clearly seeing. All of
              history, and the present day as well, is full of enough horrors happening to
              women to keep me fully nauseated at all times, without being overly concerned
              about fictional accounts from the thirteenth century.

              I'm sorry this has disturbed you so deeply, (I've been there), although I
              think some of your concern is misplaced (the modern day Viscontis are probably
              pretty well used to the idea that some of their ancestors were right bastards.
              You didn't rule a Renaissance city only by being a sweetheart.) Please don't
              interpret my silence on it as indifference to the rights of children and women,
              only to a sense that this particular situation was not one that needed my
              social/political intervention.

              Be well,

              Raquel

              +____________________________________+
              Do not beg. Do not refuse. Preserve. Bestow.

              --Colman mac Beognae, 'The Alphabet of Devotion
            • cti1572
              Just for the record, it appears that there is going to be one less new person learning from this group about authenticity. I ve been in private contact with
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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                Just for the record, it appears that there is going to be one less
                new person learning from this group about authenticity. I've been in
                private contact with this person, and the intensity of the flame that
                just kept coming at her has driven this lady (who is so hungry for
                knowledge) off the list. Too bad she couldn't have been treated like
                the last person with a "kidnapped by pirates" persona story. When you
                hit someone with a tank, you often don't get a second chance to make
                it all better.

                -jehan
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... Thanks!! You re a lifesaver. (Wintergreen --- not one of those icky fruit flavors, either!) Effingham
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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                  Tangwystyl wrote:

                  >
                  > >BTW, I *did* get your wonderful, lengthy response to my Q. about
                  > >Welsh -- As it came during the War, I stuck it and all the more
                  > >lengthy messages needing responses into my "deal with this" file --
                  > >which I was never able to deal with owing to the recent disc
                  > >Whoopsie. If by chance your computer archives messages you send, I'd
                  > >love to see it again.
                  >
                  > Since I haven't purged my "copies of outgoing messages" file
                  > recently, I should still have it. (In theory, every month or so, I
                  > go through and sort off all the outgoing messages that I want to
                  > archive. Right now, it's been about three months ....) I'll forward
                  > it to you privately.
                  >

                  Thanks!! You're a lifesaver. (Wintergreen --- not one of those icky fruit flavors, either!)


                  Effingham
                • Jan C. Lane
                  Another note on that 12-year-old girl being married....marriages among persons that young have been documented. However, the marriage may not have been
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 2, 2003
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                    Another note on that 12-year-old girl being married....marriages among
                    persons that young have been documented. However, the marriage may not have
                    been consummated for some time. Unless he's a pedophile (and we WON'T go
                    there), an older man taking a child bride would be quite aware of the need
                    to wait until she was mature enough for consummation.

                    In service,

                    Jannifer
                  • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                    In a message dated 9/1/2003 3:10:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... It was your response that wasn t civil. There are lots of other ways you could have told
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 2, 2003
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                      In a message dated 9/1/2003 3:10:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                      Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

                      > And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person
                      > raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not
                      > funny or interesting and I don't think it's an appropriate part of a
                      > persona's story. How can you guys read this and obviousy think it's
                      > nothing special? And especially how can you the other women in this
                      > group read this and not react?
                      >

                      It was your response that wasn't civil. There are lots of other ways you
                      could have told this girl that you didn't care for her persona story without
                      making her out to be an insensitive nitwit.
                      And frankly, things like rape did happen to 12 year old girls in history, and
                      there are an awful lot of real people in history who might have had a similar
                      persona story to a young girl married off to an older man, possibly against
                      her will...the story of January and May in the Canterbury Tales is a period
                      fictional example, and the wife of Le Menagier of Paris a real-life one. In any
                      case, she never said that Ottone Visconti raped her mother; she said that "He
                      then took my mother and made her his wife as she was only 12 year old."
                      And if you aren't aware that churchmen, up to and including some popes, had
                      mistresses and fathered children, (and I'd bet some of the deMedici popes
                      weren't above rape), and that clerical celibacy was not always a required or even
                      accepted thing even during the SCA period, then you need to read some more
                      history yourself.

                      Brangwayna Morgan


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