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Re: My SCA Persona

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  • xina007eu
    ... choose ... documentation. It ... to have ... king ... treason as ... not sure ... pregnant. ... duration. Her ... something ... region ... archbishop ...
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Eleyna" <sassyol@c...> wrote:

      > NOTE:(REMEMBER THIS IS ONLY A STORY. NOT REAL) Story as to reason I
      choose
      > the spelling the way I did. And how I'll say it with the
      documentation. It
      > is going to go something like this. My mother was not even supposed
      to have
      > had children. As per she had lost several children prier to me. The
      king
      > wanted heirs to the thrown and was about to have her beheaved for
      treason as
      > per her loosing so many children. She sought the aid of (someone
      not sure
      > who yet) to help her. In the process of doing so. She then became
      pregnant.
      > Not wanting to loose another child. She was bed ridden for the
      duration. Her
      > husband was (not sure of the first name) Last name is Visconti. Or
      something
      > like. When The Visconti family rulled in Milan and the surrounding
      region
      > from the 13th Century until 1447. Ottone Visconti (circa 1207-95)
      archbishop
      > of Milan in 1262. He defeated dominant Della Torre family in 1277.
      He then
      > took my mother and made her his wife as she was only 12 year old. Or
      > something to this affect. And then wanting to make sure that the
      Visconti
      > name would produce Heirs she became now pregnant. And because of the
      > situation surronding my mysterious birth. My father wanted my name
      to be
      > Elena. My mother choose to add the y before the n that way people
      might
      > understand where she was coming from. Again or something to this
      affect. Etc
      > etc etc.
      >

      This is not information but fantasy. Ottone Visconti, as you say, was
      an archbishop, so I strongly assume he would not have been allowed to
      marry. He was a real person whom you are slandering in your "story"
      by claiming that he raped a 12 year old girl (at age 70, if your
      dates are correct). Unless you have any evidence that this gentleman
      actually did such things, this is neither funny nor interesting; it
      is rude and stupid.
      IMHO any family relationship with real people and/or dynasties should
      be avoided in constructing a persona's story. I know there are people
      on this forum that will contradict me but how would you feel if you
      encountered a real-life descendant of the Viscontis and had to
      explain to him what kind of story you made up? "Hey, I'm saying that
      your great-great ..... uncle raped my mother". Would it make you
      happy and proud to explain this? Or would you be ashamed you made uo
      such a story?
      I am not aware of women being executed for having miscarriages in
      13th century Italy.
      I am not aware of people adding letters to a name in order to convey
      secret messages in the 13th century. Names were often spelled
      in "nonstandard" ways because there were no spelling standards. Have
      you got any evidence forthe letter "y" in a name having any secret
      meaning in 13th century Italy?
      Although your story does not involve being abducted by gypsies or
      pirates, it is in the same category. Could you try to find something
      else? Since you obviously have done some research into that time
      period, what girl's names did you come across? Were surnames used at
      all during that period, or were patronyms (e.g. "Francesco di
      Marco"), place names (e.g. "John of Gaunt"), nicknames or occupations
      used instead? Start by looking at what there is instead of making up
      a name and trying to find some kind of far-fetched explanation for
      it. If you look into old records, you can find all sorts of really
      wonderful information, including beautiful names. You could start by
      being Elena da Milano and then change the name if you come across
      something you like better and only register it when you've found a
      name you are really happy with. If you are interested in the
      Viscontis, you could make your persona some kind of retainer or
      servant at their court, or maybe someone from a merchant family that
      has a lot of contact with the Visconti dynasty, or something like
      that.
      If you really like your story, you can of course think of more
      details and then write it up as historical fiction, I'm sure that
      would be a fun thing to do, and you would learn a lot about the time
      and place of your persona.
      Best regards,

      Christina
    • sismith42
      ... Wow. Why the viscious attack? I feel cold & shakey, & it wasn;t even directed at me! ... that has a lot of contact with the Visconti dynasty, or
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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        > This is not information but fantasy. Ottone Visconti, as you say,

        Wow. Why the viscious attack? I feel cold & shakey, & it wasn;t
        even directed at me!

        > Viscontis, you could make your persona some kind of retainer or
        > servant at their court, or maybe someone from a merchant family
        that has a lot of contact with the Visconti dynasty, or something
        like that.

        Or some kind of relative, since the SCA *assumes* people are of the
        nobility. She doesn't have to be a servent or middle class if she
        doesn't want to.

        Stefania
      • Steven Proctor
        OK, this pinged pretty damn high on my harsh-o-meter. Lets try to keep things civil, people.... Ta Adhemar List Moderator ... -- It is by caffeine alone that I
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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          OK, this pinged pretty damn high on my harsh-o-meter. Lets try to keep
          things civil, people....

          Ta

          Adhemar
          List Moderator



          xina007eu wrote:

          > This is not information but fantasy.
          >
          > Christina

          --
          It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
          It is by the beans of Java that the thoughts acquire speed,
          the hands acquire the shakes; the shakes become a warning.
          It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
        • xina007eu
          ... keep ... And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not funny or
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Steven Proctor <sproctor@s...>
            wrote:
            > OK, this pinged pretty damn high on my harsh-o-meter. Lets try to
            keep
            > things civil, people....
            >
            > Ta
            >
            > Adhemar
            > List Moderator
            >
            >
            >
            > xina007eu wrote:
            >
            > > This is not information but fantasy.
            > >
            > > Christina
            >
            > --
            > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
            > It is by the beans of Java that the thoughts acquire speed,
            > the hands acquire the shakes; the shakes become a warning.
            > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

            And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person
            raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not
            funny or interesting and I don't think it's an appropriate part of a
            persona's story. How can you guys read this and obviousy think it's
            nothing special? And especially how can you the other women in this
            group read this and not react?
            Best regards,

            Christina
          • xina007eu
            ... And I felt cold and shakey when I read the bit about raping a 12 year old girl. How can you read this story and shrug it off as something normal or
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sismith42" <sismith42@y...>
              wrote:
              >
              > > This is not information but fantasy. Ottone Visconti, as you say,
              >
              > Wow. Why the viscious attack? I feel cold & shakey, & it wasn;t
              > even directed at me!
              >

              And I felt cold and shakey when I read the bit about raping a 12 year
              old girl. How can you read this story and shrug it off as something
              normal or acceptable?
            • Steven Proctor
              Actually what she *said* was made her his wife , which would preclude it being rape, in at least the technical sense. While it may be abhorrent to the modern
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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                Actually what she *said* was 'made her his wife', which would preclude
                it being rape, in at least the technical sense. While it may be
                abhorrent to the modern sensibilities, it is not unheard of in period.
                While it's not something *I* would include in a persona story, or
                encourage others to (as it's far more the exception than the rule) it's
                not a completely invalid.

                Please moderate you tone. I understand that you are feeling strongly
                about this, but attacking other list members is not going to make your
                point.

                Ta

                Adhemar


                xina007eu wrote:

                > And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person
                > raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not
                > funny or interesting and I don't think it's an appropriate part of a
                > persona's story. How can you guys read this and obviousy think it's
                > nothing special? And especially how can you the other women in this
                > group read this and not react?
                > Best regards,
                >
                > Christina

                --
                It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
                It is by the beans of Java that the thoughts acquire speed,
                the hands acquire the shakes; the shakes become a warning.
                It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
              • sismith42
                ... year old girl. How can you read this story and shrug it off as By not reading He then took my mother and made her his wife as she was only 12 year old.
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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                  > And I felt cold and shakey when I read the bit about raping a 12
                  year old girl. How can you read this story and shrug it off as

                  By not reading " He then took my mother and made her his wife as she
                  was only 12 year old. Or something to this affect." as a rape
                  scene. Maybe it was intended to mean that & I'm naieve, maybe she
                  _didn't_ mean that interpretation at all... Benefit of the doubt,
                  innocent until proven guilty, & all that...

                  >something normal or acceptable?

                  Why do you think I'm looking at this as normal or acceptable? The
                  attitude of this list has luckilly been (as I see it) "try not to
                  bat an eye and educate" (remember the girl who wanted to do
                  a "kidnapped by pirates" persona, and how people were kind about
                  disuading her... and found ways to give her something similar, but
                  historically correct?). You made a lot of good, accurate points...
                  but the anger in it. wow.

                  Stefania
                • raven_moonsinger
                  Dear Christina, It s not that rape is acceptable or civil, especially to children. And it s also not that one should not try to explain to someone the
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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                    Dear Christina,

                    It's not that rape is acceptable or civil, especially to children.
                    And it's also not that one should not try to explain to someone the
                    implications of what they had just written. I don't think she (the
                    author of the persona story) was deliberately trying to slander or
                    hurt anyone, but just hadn't realized the full consequenses of her
                    story (sort of like if you push over a chair with a glass of milk on
                    it, you might forget about the milk and then be surprised to have it
                    covering your carpet). The problem is that you reacted to her not as
                    a person who might have made a mistake, but as some sort of terrible
                    evil person who was deliberately trying to hurt someone. If she were
                    right in front of you, I doubt you'd have said something that
                    strongly. Before yelling at her, you could have simply asked, "Did
                    you realize that your persona story implies that this rape actually
                    happened?" and go on about meeting a real Visconti descendant (that
                    part was also fine and very educative) as well as age discrepancies,
                    etc. It just seems that you forgot you were writing to a real person
                    who has feelings and makes mistakes. If you had done something
                    without thinking (and we all have), I'm sure you wouldn't have wanted
                    her (or someone else) to come screaming at you for it before/while
                    explaining why. You'd have wanted to find out why FIRST and then, if
                    you kept doing it, THEN you might expect some backlash. In other
                    words, if you had explained to her that her story had these
                    implications and then she wrote a new story, very similar to the
                    first, but perhaps with different historical persons, you could then
                    say something like, "You're still doing it!". She made the mistake
                    of forgetting that historical people really existed, and I hope you
                    made the mistake of forgetting she did (that is, I hope it was a
                    mistake and not a deliberate hurting of her knowing that it could
                    have been a mistake and that she is a real person).

                    *shrugs* I agree that you were too harsh on her, not because you
                    didn't raise good points, but because you assumed she was
                    deliberately trying to hurt someone, rather than making a mistake or
                    not realizing the full implications of what she was doing. We all
                    get lots (too many at times) of messages in our inboxes, and it is
                    sometimes difficult to rememeber that the people who wrote them are
                    as real as we are. In fact, I think Adhemar's instruction on "Let's
                    try to be civil" applies to everyone, not just you, but to those of
                    us who might write to you ourselves. And I am truly hoping that I
                    have not said anything offensive, as I am merely trying to explain
                    why your remarks might have hurt her. I was definitely *not* trying
                    to hurt you in the process, and I hope no one else did/does.

                    Alienor

                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "xina007eu"
                    <Christina_Lemke@h...> wrote:
                    > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Steven Proctor
                    <sproctor@s...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > OK, this pinged pretty damn high on my harsh-o-meter. Lets try to
                    > keep
                    > > things civil, people....
                    > >
                    > > Ta
                    > >
                    > > Adhemar
                    > > List Moderator
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > xina007eu wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > This is not information but fantasy.
                    > > >
                    > > > Christina
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
                    > > It is by the beans of Java that the thoughts acquire speed,
                    > > the hands acquire the shakes; the shakes become a warning.
                    > > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
                    >
                    > And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person
                    > raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not
                    > funny or interesting and I don't think it's an appropriate part of
                    a
                    > persona's story. How can you guys read this and obviousy think it's
                    > nothing special? And especially how can you the other women in this
                    > group read this and not react?
                    > Best regards,
                    >
                    > Christina
                  • hasoferet@aol.com
                    In a message dated 9/1/03 10:22:26 AM, Christina_Lemke@hotmail.com writes:
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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                      In a message dated 9/1/03 10:22:26 AM, Christina_Lemke@... writes:

                      << And especially how can you the other women in this

                      group read this and not react? >>

                      My understanding of the original post was that the person in question took a
                      twelve year old girl as his wife. Rape was not mentioned. I agree that since
                      he appears to have been an archbishop, this is _highly_ improbable, and twelve
                      is dang young for a girl to marry in most of our times and places. (Not all.)

                      However, while the persona story as posted doesn't strike me as real
                      historical, it also doesn't strike me as the monstrosity you're clearly seeing. All of
                      history, and the present day as well, is full of enough horrors happening to
                      women to keep me fully nauseated at all times, without being overly concerned
                      about fictional accounts from the thirteenth century.

                      I'm sorry this has disturbed you so deeply, (I've been there), although I
                      think some of your concern is misplaced (the modern day Viscontis are probably
                      pretty well used to the idea that some of their ancestors were right bastards.
                      You didn't rule a Renaissance city only by being a sweetheart.) Please don't
                      interpret my silence on it as indifference to the rights of children and women,
                      only to a sense that this particular situation was not one that needed my
                      social/political intervention.

                      Be well,

                      Raquel

                      +____________________________________+
                      Do not beg. Do not refuse. Preserve. Bestow.

                      --Colman mac Beognae, 'The Alphabet of Devotion
                    • cti1572
                      Just for the record, it appears that there is going to be one less new person learning from this group about authenticity. I ve been in private contact with
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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                        Just for the record, it appears that there is going to be one less
                        new person learning from this group about authenticity. I've been in
                        private contact with this person, and the intensity of the flame that
                        just kept coming at her has driven this lady (who is so hungry for
                        knowledge) off the list. Too bad she couldn't have been treated like
                        the last person with a "kidnapped by pirates" persona story. When you
                        hit someone with a tank, you often don't get a second chance to make
                        it all better.

                        -jehan
                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... Thanks!! You re a lifesaver. (Wintergreen --- not one of those icky fruit flavors, either!) Effingham
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
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                          Tangwystyl wrote:

                          >
                          > >BTW, I *did* get your wonderful, lengthy response to my Q. about
                          > >Welsh -- As it came during the War, I stuck it and all the more
                          > >lengthy messages needing responses into my "deal with this" file --
                          > >which I was never able to deal with owing to the recent disc
                          > >Whoopsie. If by chance your computer archives messages you send, I'd
                          > >love to see it again.
                          >
                          > Since I haven't purged my "copies of outgoing messages" file
                          > recently, I should still have it. (In theory, every month or so, I
                          > go through and sort off all the outgoing messages that I want to
                          > archive. Right now, it's been about three months ....) I'll forward
                          > it to you privately.
                          >

                          Thanks!! You're a lifesaver. (Wintergreen --- not one of those icky fruit flavors, either!)


                          Effingham
                        • Jan C. Lane
                          Another note on that 12-year-old girl being married....marriages among persons that young have been documented. However, the marriage may not have been
                          Message 12 of 29 , Sep 2, 2003
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                            Another note on that 12-year-old girl being married....marriages among
                            persons that young have been documented. However, the marriage may not have
                            been consummated for some time. Unless he's a pedophile (and we WON'T go
                            there), an older man taking a child bride would be quite aware of the need
                            to wait until she was mature enough for consummation.

                            In service,

                            Jannifer
                          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                            In a message dated 9/1/2003 3:10:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... It was your response that wasn t civil. There are lots of other ways you could have told
                            Message 13 of 29 , Sep 2, 2003
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                              In a message dated 9/1/2003 3:10:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                              Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

                              > And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person
                              > raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not
                              > funny or interesting and I don't think it's an appropriate part of a
                              > persona's story. How can you guys read this and obviousy think it's
                              > nothing special? And especially how can you the other women in this
                              > group read this and not react?
                              >

                              It was your response that wasn't civil. There are lots of other ways you
                              could have told this girl that you didn't care for her persona story without
                              making her out to be an insensitive nitwit.
                              And frankly, things like rape did happen to 12 year old girls in history, and
                              there are an awful lot of real people in history who might have had a similar
                              persona story to a young girl married off to an older man, possibly against
                              her will...the story of January and May in the Canterbury Tales is a period
                              fictional example, and the wife of Le Menagier of Paris a real-life one. In any
                              case, she never said that Ottone Visconti raped her mother; she said that "He
                              then took my mother and made her his wife as she was only 12 year old."
                              And if you aren't aware that churchmen, up to and including some popes, had
                              mistresses and fathered children, (and I'd bet some of the deMedici popes
                              weren't above rape), and that clerical celibacy was not always a required or even
                              accepted thing even during the SCA period, then you need to read some more
                              history yourself.

                              Brangwayna Morgan


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