Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

geography and language (was Re: My SCA Persona)

Expand Messages
  • wodeford
    ... My ... just ... have ... While I recall receiving correspondence from Tenkai of Okayama addressing me as Hodeforu no Ji An. ;- Jehanne (as opposed to
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ariane H <phoenissa@n...> wrote:
      > Using one's name in various languages can actually be lots of fun.
      My
      > boyfriend, when he finally got around to submitting his name for
      > registration, went with Yosef, but I started calling him Giuseppe -
      just
      > on a whim at first, and even though it caused some amusement, it
      > actually made a lot of sense because our personae would pretty much
      have
      > nothing to do with each other in the real world of 16th c. Europe.

      While I recall receiving correspondence from Tenkai of Okayama
      addressing me as "Hodeforu no Ji An." ;->

      Jehanne (as opposed to Jehan)
    • xina007eu
      ... choose ... documentation. It ... to have ... king ... treason as ... not sure ... pregnant. ... duration. Her ... something ... region ... archbishop ...
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Eleyna" <sassyol@c...> wrote:

        > NOTE:(REMEMBER THIS IS ONLY A STORY. NOT REAL) Story as to reason I
        choose
        > the spelling the way I did. And how I'll say it with the
        documentation. It
        > is going to go something like this. My mother was not even supposed
        to have
        > had children. As per she had lost several children prier to me. The
        king
        > wanted heirs to the thrown and was about to have her beheaved for
        treason as
        > per her loosing so many children. She sought the aid of (someone
        not sure
        > who yet) to help her. In the process of doing so. She then became
        pregnant.
        > Not wanting to loose another child. She was bed ridden for the
        duration. Her
        > husband was (not sure of the first name) Last name is Visconti. Or
        something
        > like. When The Visconti family rulled in Milan and the surrounding
        region
        > from the 13th Century until 1447. Ottone Visconti (circa 1207-95)
        archbishop
        > of Milan in 1262. He defeated dominant Della Torre family in 1277.
        He then
        > took my mother and made her his wife as she was only 12 year old. Or
        > something to this affect. And then wanting to make sure that the
        Visconti
        > name would produce Heirs she became now pregnant. And because of the
        > situation surronding my mysterious birth. My father wanted my name
        to be
        > Elena. My mother choose to add the y before the n that way people
        might
        > understand where she was coming from. Again or something to this
        affect. Etc
        > etc etc.
        >

        This is not information but fantasy. Ottone Visconti, as you say, was
        an archbishop, so I strongly assume he would not have been allowed to
        marry. He was a real person whom you are slandering in your "story"
        by claiming that he raped a 12 year old girl (at age 70, if your
        dates are correct). Unless you have any evidence that this gentleman
        actually did such things, this is neither funny nor interesting; it
        is rude and stupid.
        IMHO any family relationship with real people and/or dynasties should
        be avoided in constructing a persona's story. I know there are people
        on this forum that will contradict me but how would you feel if you
        encountered a real-life descendant of the Viscontis and had to
        explain to him what kind of story you made up? "Hey, I'm saying that
        your great-great ..... uncle raped my mother". Would it make you
        happy and proud to explain this? Or would you be ashamed you made uo
        such a story?
        I am not aware of women being executed for having miscarriages in
        13th century Italy.
        I am not aware of people adding letters to a name in order to convey
        secret messages in the 13th century. Names were often spelled
        in "nonstandard" ways because there were no spelling standards. Have
        you got any evidence forthe letter "y" in a name having any secret
        meaning in 13th century Italy?
        Although your story does not involve being abducted by gypsies or
        pirates, it is in the same category. Could you try to find something
        else? Since you obviously have done some research into that time
        period, what girl's names did you come across? Were surnames used at
        all during that period, or were patronyms (e.g. "Francesco di
        Marco"), place names (e.g. "John of Gaunt"), nicknames or occupations
        used instead? Start by looking at what there is instead of making up
        a name and trying to find some kind of far-fetched explanation for
        it. If you look into old records, you can find all sorts of really
        wonderful information, including beautiful names. You could start by
        being Elena da Milano and then change the name if you come across
        something you like better and only register it when you've found a
        name you are really happy with. If you are interested in the
        Viscontis, you could make your persona some kind of retainer or
        servant at their court, or maybe someone from a merchant family that
        has a lot of contact with the Visconti dynasty, or something like
        that.
        If you really like your story, you can of course think of more
        details and then write it up as historical fiction, I'm sure that
        would be a fun thing to do, and you would learn a lot about the time
        and place of your persona.
        Best regards,

        Christina
      • sismith42
        ... Wow. Why the viscious attack? I feel cold & shakey, & it wasn;t even directed at me! ... that has a lot of contact with the Visconti dynasty, or
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          > This is not information but fantasy. Ottone Visconti, as you say,

          Wow. Why the viscious attack? I feel cold & shakey, & it wasn;t
          even directed at me!

          > Viscontis, you could make your persona some kind of retainer or
          > servant at their court, or maybe someone from a merchant family
          that has a lot of contact with the Visconti dynasty, or something
          like that.

          Or some kind of relative, since the SCA *assumes* people are of the
          nobility. She doesn't have to be a servent or middle class if she
          doesn't want to.

          Stefania
        • Steven Proctor
          OK, this pinged pretty damn high on my harsh-o-meter. Lets try to keep things civil, people.... Ta Adhemar List Moderator ... -- It is by caffeine alone that I
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            OK, this pinged pretty damn high on my harsh-o-meter. Lets try to keep
            things civil, people....

            Ta

            Adhemar
            List Moderator



            xina007eu wrote:

            > This is not information but fantasy.
            >
            > Christina

            --
            It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
            It is by the beans of Java that the thoughts acquire speed,
            the hands acquire the shakes; the shakes become a warning.
            It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
          • xina007eu
            ... keep ... And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not funny or
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Steven Proctor <sproctor@s...>
              wrote:
              > OK, this pinged pretty damn high on my harsh-o-meter. Lets try to
              keep
              > things civil, people....
              >
              > Ta
              >
              > Adhemar
              > List Moderator
              >
              >
              >
              > xina007eu wrote:
              >
              > > This is not information but fantasy.
              > >
              > > Christina
              >
              > --
              > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
              > It is by the beans of Java that the thoughts acquire speed,
              > the hands acquire the shakes; the shakes become a warning.
              > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

              And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person
              raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not
              funny or interesting and I don't think it's an appropriate part of a
              persona's story. How can you guys read this and obviousy think it's
              nothing special? And especially how can you the other women in this
              group read this and not react?
              Best regards,

              Christina
            • xina007eu
              ... And I felt cold and shakey when I read the bit about raping a 12 year old girl. How can you read this story and shrug it off as something normal or
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sismith42" <sismith42@y...>
                wrote:
                >
                > > This is not information but fantasy. Ottone Visconti, as you say,
                >
                > Wow. Why the viscious attack? I feel cold & shakey, & it wasn;t
                > even directed at me!
                >

                And I felt cold and shakey when I read the bit about raping a 12 year
                old girl. How can you read this story and shrug it off as something
                normal or acceptable?
              • Steven Proctor
                Actually what she *said* was made her his wife , which would preclude it being rape, in at least the technical sense. While it may be abhorrent to the modern
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Actually what she *said* was 'made her his wife', which would preclude
                  it being rape, in at least the technical sense. While it may be
                  abhorrent to the modern sensibilities, it is not unheard of in period.
                  While it's not something *I* would include in a persona story, or
                  encourage others to (as it's far more the exception than the rule) it's
                  not a completely invalid.

                  Please moderate you tone. I understand that you are feeling strongly
                  about this, but attacking other list members is not going to make your
                  point.

                  Ta

                  Adhemar


                  xina007eu wrote:

                  > And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person
                  > raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not
                  > funny or interesting and I don't think it's an appropriate part of a
                  > persona's story. How can you guys read this and obviousy think it's
                  > nothing special? And especially how can you the other women in this
                  > group read this and not react?
                  > Best regards,
                  >
                  > Christina

                  --
                  It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
                  It is by the beans of Java that the thoughts acquire speed,
                  the hands acquire the shakes; the shakes become a warning.
                  It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
                • sismith42
                  ... year old girl. How can you read this story and shrug it off as By not reading He then took my mother and made her his wife as she was only 12 year old.
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > And I felt cold and shakey when I read the bit about raping a 12
                    year old girl. How can you read this story and shrug it off as

                    By not reading " He then took my mother and made her his wife as she
                    was only 12 year old. Or something to this affect." as a rape
                    scene. Maybe it was intended to mean that & I'm naieve, maybe she
                    _didn't_ mean that interpretation at all... Benefit of the doubt,
                    innocent until proven guilty, & all that...

                    >something normal or acceptable?

                    Why do you think I'm looking at this as normal or acceptable? The
                    attitude of this list has luckilly been (as I see it) "try not to
                    bat an eye and educate" (remember the girl who wanted to do
                    a "kidnapped by pirates" persona, and how people were kind about
                    disuading her... and found ways to give her something similar, but
                    historically correct?). You made a lot of good, accurate points...
                    but the anger in it. wow.

                    Stefania
                  • raven_moonsinger
                    Dear Christina, It s not that rape is acceptable or civil, especially to children. And it s also not that one should not try to explain to someone the
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Christina,

                      It's not that rape is acceptable or civil, especially to children.
                      And it's also not that one should not try to explain to someone the
                      implications of what they had just written. I don't think she (the
                      author of the persona story) was deliberately trying to slander or
                      hurt anyone, but just hadn't realized the full consequenses of her
                      story (sort of like if you push over a chair with a glass of milk on
                      it, you might forget about the milk and then be surprised to have it
                      covering your carpet). The problem is that you reacted to her not as
                      a person who might have made a mistake, but as some sort of terrible
                      evil person who was deliberately trying to hurt someone. If she were
                      right in front of you, I doubt you'd have said something that
                      strongly. Before yelling at her, you could have simply asked, "Did
                      you realize that your persona story implies that this rape actually
                      happened?" and go on about meeting a real Visconti descendant (that
                      part was also fine and very educative) as well as age discrepancies,
                      etc. It just seems that you forgot you were writing to a real person
                      who has feelings and makes mistakes. If you had done something
                      without thinking (and we all have), I'm sure you wouldn't have wanted
                      her (or someone else) to come screaming at you for it before/while
                      explaining why. You'd have wanted to find out why FIRST and then, if
                      you kept doing it, THEN you might expect some backlash. In other
                      words, if you had explained to her that her story had these
                      implications and then she wrote a new story, very similar to the
                      first, but perhaps with different historical persons, you could then
                      say something like, "You're still doing it!". She made the mistake
                      of forgetting that historical people really existed, and I hope you
                      made the mistake of forgetting she did (that is, I hope it was a
                      mistake and not a deliberate hurting of her knowing that it could
                      have been a mistake and that she is a real person).

                      *shrugs* I agree that you were too harsh on her, not because you
                      didn't raise good points, but because you assumed she was
                      deliberately trying to hurt someone, rather than making a mistake or
                      not realizing the full implications of what she was doing. We all
                      get lots (too many at times) of messages in our inboxes, and it is
                      sometimes difficult to rememeber that the people who wrote them are
                      as real as we are. In fact, I think Adhemar's instruction on "Let's
                      try to be civil" applies to everyone, not just you, but to those of
                      us who might write to you ourselves. And I am truly hoping that I
                      have not said anything offensive, as I am merely trying to explain
                      why your remarks might have hurt her. I was definitely *not* trying
                      to hurt you in the process, and I hope no one else did/does.

                      Alienor

                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "xina007eu"
                      <Christina_Lemke@h...> wrote:
                      > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Steven Proctor
                      <sproctor@s...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > OK, this pinged pretty damn high on my harsh-o-meter. Lets try to
                      > keep
                      > > things civil, people....
                      > >
                      > > Ta
                      > >
                      > > Adhemar
                      > > List Moderator
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > xina007eu wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > This is not information but fantasy.
                      > > >
                      > > > Christina
                      > >
                      > > --
                      > > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
                      > > It is by the beans of Java that the thoughts acquire speed,
                      > > the hands acquire the shakes; the shakes become a warning.
                      > > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
                      >
                      > And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person
                      > raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not
                      > funny or interesting and I don't think it's an appropriate part of
                      a
                      > persona's story. How can you guys read this and obviousy think it's
                      > nothing special? And especially how can you the other women in this
                      > group read this and not react?
                      > Best regards,
                      >
                      > Christina
                    • hasoferet@aol.com
                      In a message dated 9/1/03 10:22:26 AM, Christina_Lemke@hotmail.com writes:
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        In a message dated 9/1/03 10:22:26 AM, Christina_Lemke@... writes:

                        << And especially how can you the other women in this

                        group read this and not react? >>

                        My understanding of the original post was that the person in question took a
                        twelve year old girl as his wife. Rape was not mentioned. I agree that since
                        he appears to have been an archbishop, this is _highly_ improbable, and twelve
                        is dang young for a girl to marry in most of our times and places. (Not all.)

                        However, while the persona story as posted doesn't strike me as real
                        historical, it also doesn't strike me as the monstrosity you're clearly seeing. All of
                        history, and the present day as well, is full of enough horrors happening to
                        women to keep me fully nauseated at all times, without being overly concerned
                        about fictional accounts from the thirteenth century.

                        I'm sorry this has disturbed you so deeply, (I've been there), although I
                        think some of your concern is misplaced (the modern day Viscontis are probably
                        pretty well used to the idea that some of their ancestors were right bastards.
                        You didn't rule a Renaissance city only by being a sweetheart.) Please don't
                        interpret my silence on it as indifference to the rights of children and women,
                        only to a sense that this particular situation was not one that needed my
                        social/political intervention.

                        Be well,

                        Raquel

                        +____________________________________+
                        Do not beg. Do not refuse. Preserve. Bestow.

                        --Colman mac Beognae, 'The Alphabet of Devotion
                      • cti1572
                        Just for the record, it appears that there is going to be one less new person learning from this group about authenticity. I ve been in private contact with
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Just for the record, it appears that there is going to be one less
                          new person learning from this group about authenticity. I've been in
                          private contact with this person, and the intensity of the flame that
                          just kept coming at her has driven this lady (who is so hungry for
                          knowledge) off the list. Too bad she couldn't have been treated like
                          the last person with a "kidnapped by pirates" persona story. When you
                          hit someone with a tank, you often don't get a second chance to make
                          it all better.

                          -jehan
                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                          ... Thanks!! You re a lifesaver. (Wintergreen --- not one of those icky fruit flavors, either!) Effingham
                          Message 12 of 29 , Sep 1, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Tangwystyl wrote:

                            >
                            > >BTW, I *did* get your wonderful, lengthy response to my Q. about
                            > >Welsh -- As it came during the War, I stuck it and all the more
                            > >lengthy messages needing responses into my "deal with this" file --
                            > >which I was never able to deal with owing to the recent disc
                            > >Whoopsie. If by chance your computer archives messages you send, I'd
                            > >love to see it again.
                            >
                            > Since I haven't purged my "copies of outgoing messages" file
                            > recently, I should still have it. (In theory, every month or so, I
                            > go through and sort off all the outgoing messages that I want to
                            > archive. Right now, it's been about three months ....) I'll forward
                            > it to you privately.
                            >

                            Thanks!! You're a lifesaver. (Wintergreen --- not one of those icky fruit flavors, either!)


                            Effingham
                          • Jan C. Lane
                            Another note on that 12-year-old girl being married....marriages among persons that young have been documented. However, the marriage may not have been
                            Message 13 of 29 , Sep 2, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Another note on that 12-year-old girl being married....marriages among
                              persons that young have been documented. However, the marriage may not have
                              been consummated for some time. Unless he's a pedophile (and we WON'T go
                              there), an older man taking a child bride would be quite aware of the need
                              to wait until she was mature enough for consummation.

                              In service,

                              Jannifer
                            • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                              In a message dated 9/1/2003 3:10:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... It was your response that wasn t civil. There are lots of other ways you could have told
                              Message 14 of 29 , Sep 2, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In a message dated 9/1/2003 3:10:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

                                > And what is civil about claiming that an existing historical person
                                > raped a 12 year old girl? Is that OK? IMHO, raping children is not
                                > funny or interesting and I don't think it's an appropriate part of a
                                > persona's story. How can you guys read this and obviousy think it's
                                > nothing special? And especially how can you the other women in this
                                > group read this and not react?
                                >

                                It was your response that wasn't civil. There are lots of other ways you
                                could have told this girl that you didn't care for her persona story without
                                making her out to be an insensitive nitwit.
                                And frankly, things like rape did happen to 12 year old girls in history, and
                                there are an awful lot of real people in history who might have had a similar
                                persona story to a young girl married off to an older man, possibly against
                                her will...the story of January and May in the Canterbury Tales is a period
                                fictional example, and the wife of Le Menagier of Paris a real-life one. In any
                                case, she never said that Ottone Visconti raped her mother; she said that "He
                                then took my mother and made her his wife as she was only 12 year old."
                                And if you aren't aware that churchmen, up to and including some popes, had
                                mistresses and fathered children, (and I'd bet some of the deMedici popes
                                weren't above rape), and that clerical celibacy was not always a required or even
                                accepted thing even during the SCA period, then you need to read some more
                                history yourself.

                                Brangwayna Morgan


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.