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RE: [Authentic_SCA] Re: [Fwd: [EK] The Historic Combat Series at Pennsic XXXII]

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  • Jeff Gedney
    ... having done Judo, Heavy list, rapier combat, I think I can offer a qualified opinion. Have you really thought about the PHYSICS involved? For heavy lists:
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 1, 2003
      >
      > >Is it just that we don't require enough training? Or that somehow the
      > >various dojos get across to people the point that 'you can and
      > may be hurt
      > >doing martial activities'?

      having done Judo, Heavy list, rapier combat, I think I can offer a qualified
      opinion.

      Have you really thought about the PHYSICS involved?
      For heavy lists:
      Adding 8-10 pounds of a large helm increases drasitically the angular
      momentum experienced by the cervical vertibrae if one falls on ones side or
      the torso hits before the head.
      Also Armor is generally restrictive to body flexion and compression and
      often limits the range of motion available to the limbs in a fall, the
      weight magnifying the force of strikes and kicks as well as impeding the
      ability to perform breakfalls with any safety.

      For Rapier:
      The weapon, often including quillons and a long blade, which are quite
      effective levers, and knuckle bows and guards, which can prevent the hand
      from escaping the applied leverage, can cause enormous damage if one falls
      improperly on it. Not to mention the possibility of such a fall causing
      breakage and transfixion by blade or quillons. Judo while carrying a rapier
      makes me plain nervous.

      And neither rapier nor heavy lists are conducive to the the necessary
      training in how to fall properly without damage.
      In Judo an enormous amount of time is spent in learning how to fall without
      damage.

      The SCA is NOT anything like a dojo atmosphere, and the fighting is not
      taught as a techniques oriented skillset but as a goal oriented skillset.

      I am reminded of the classical technique of disarming your opponent by
      grabbing the quillons and twisting out... done right it is cool smoth and
      pretty. But twist the wrong way and we are loking at a broken wrist.
      Grappling is, IMHO, way too hard in the SCA context to train and administer
      safely.

      It seems odd to have to point this out, but...
      Period fighting techniques were not always concerned with maintaining the
      good health of the opponent, therefore not all period fighting techniques
      will be appropriate to SCA combat.

      We can safely simulate and protect against some, such as using rebated and
      thrust buttonned weapons, puncture resistant armor, etc, but for some
      techniques we are just not going to be able to account for enough variables
      to make the application anything reasonably safe in the SCA context. That is
      just the way it is, fellas.
      Silver may spin in his grave at the thought...
      But Silver was not teaching a reenactment society that fully expects all
      members to survive all engagements.
      Smaller goups mayu be able to enact better training and standards, but as
      groups get larger, and the transitioning of indiviuals betyween groups and
      trainers increases, the effectiveness of that training plain decreases. In
      the SCA I think it would be impossible even under the best situations to
      make grappeling and striking universally safe enough for even a modicume of
      self assurance.

      Sure, some will say, you know you will get hurt when you go in for it, but I
      think that this plain does a disservice to the friends, relatives, and
      careers of the inevitably injured maimed and quite possibly killed (someone
      falling on their quillons
      is a potentially fatal occurance)


      That said, I do not see any reason why openhanded pushes against the
      opponents hands and arm are forbidden (except the possibility of
      dislocation - but that possibility exists anyway with closein dagger
      parries).
      with only the same training in not grabbing the hand and arm that we use for
      not grabbing the blade, I think it is plenty safe enough for SCA purposes.

      So I can see not using strikes, kicks and throws, but hand to hand open
      parries should be allowed.

      Capt Elias
    • Sarah Michele Ford
      Jeff Gedney wrote: ... ... Elias, thank you for putting my exact thoughts on the topic rather more eloquently than I could. When it comes down
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 1, 2003
        Jeff Gedney wrote:

        <snip>

        > It seems odd to have to point this out, but...
        > Period fighting techniques were not always concerned with maintaining the
        > good health of the opponent, therefore not all period fighting techniques
        > will be appropriate to SCA combat.
        >
        > We can safely simulate and protect against some, such as using rebated and
        > thrust buttonned weapons, puncture resistant armor, etc, but for some
        > techniques we are just not going to be able to account for enough variables
        > to make the application anything reasonably safe in the SCA context. That is
        > just the way it is, fellas.
        > Silver may spin in his grave at the thought...
        > But Silver was not teaching a reenactment society that fully expects all
        > members to survive all engagements.
        > Smaller goups mayu be able to enact better training and standards, but as
        > groups get larger, and the transitioning of indiviuals betyween groups and
        > trainers increases, the effectiveness of that training plain decreases. In
        > the SCA I think it would be impossible even under the best situations to
        > make grappeling and striking universally safe enough for even a modicume of
        > self assurance.

        <snip>

        > That said, I do not see any reason why openhanded pushes against the
        > opponents hands and arm are forbidden (except the possibility of
        > dislocation - but that possibility exists anyway with closein dagger
        > parries).
        > with only the same training in not grabbing the hand and arm that we use for
        > not grabbing the blade, I think it is plenty safe enough for SCA purposes.
        >
        > So I can see not using strikes, kicks and throws, but hand to hand open
        > parries should be allowed.

        Elias, thank you for putting my exact thoughts on the topic rather more
        eloquently than I could. When it comes down to it, I'm doing this for
        fun and really, I'd rather not blatantly risk my life or my livelihood
        for my hobby.

        That said, I think that there should be space for experimentation with
        what I have heard called "limited grappling" - essentially hand to hand
        open parries with some corps-a-corps thrown in. No grabbing, nothing
        below the waist, etc. BUT I am always aware of the circumstances in
        which this takes place and have only ever fenced that way with people I
        trust implicitly (most of them from your Barony, as it happens). Sadly,
        the new BoD ruling means that we *can't* do that experimentation, even
        if both parties are amenable, at any official SCA function. I'm still
        thinking about how to respond to this - I think it's going to really
        hurt the sidesword experiment, among other thing.

        And it just now occurs to me that you and I have never fenced.. We
        should really remedy that sometime. :^)

        Alianor

        --
        Sarah Michele Ford
        /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
        Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
        reality is but an exception.
        --Jean Baudrillard
        \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
      • dparishwhittaker
        ... administer ... But what was changed? The original rules read Striking an opponent with excessive force, or with deliberate intent to injure, is
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 1, 2003
          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1@i...>
          wrote:

          > Grappling is, IMHO, way too hard in the SCA context to train and
          administer
          > safely.


          But what was changed? The original rules read

          "Striking an opponent with excessive force, or with deliberate
          intent to injure, is forbidden."


          The new rules say
          "Striking an opponent with excessive force or
          with deliberate intent to injure is forbidden. Intentional body-to-
          body contact is forbidden, including a fighter using his open hand to
          parry by placing it against his opponent's hand or wrist."

          This is banning something that can't be remotely construed as
          dangerous (and in fairness to Jeff, he later states that he thinks
          hand parrys should be legal). The grapevine (I know, hardly a
          primary source...) has it that this was because the BoD thought that
          hand parrys are the first step on the proverbial slippery slope. I
          have a problem with banning acceptable techniques because they will
          lead to techniques regarded as unacceptable. Should we ban
          bucklers? Sure, some folks might just parry with them, but you never
          know, next thing you know, folks will be punching with them at full
          force below the belt.

          We're all adults here, and if someone fails to act like one, they
          should be suspended from fighting.
        • Cannoneer
          ... I ll give you another scenario. I use an active parry, I reach out with my buckler (12 steel) to catch my opponents blade while it is in the guard
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 1, 2003
            At 09:39 PM 8/1/2003 +0000, you wrote:
            > Should we ban
            >bucklers? Sure, some folks might just parry with them, but you never
            >know, next thing you know, folks will be punching with them at full
            >force below the belt.
            >
            >We're all adults here, and if someone fails to act like one, they
            >should be suspended from fighting.

            I'll give you another scenario. I use an active parry, I reach out with my
            buckler (12" steel) to catch my opponents blade while it is in the guard
            position. I use it only against the weapon, but how soon before someone
            decides that I *could* decide to use it against my opponent's body. We're
            making contingency plans against problems that don't exist, or things that
            aren't problems in anyone's mind but the paranoid.

            Hawkyns


            Roderic Hawkyns
            Master Gunner

            Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl

            Its like I always say, you get more with a kind word and a two-by-four then
            with just a two-by-four - Marcus Cole
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