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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re:Cross dressing, lesbians and the law

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  • Kirrily Robert
    ... I think it s like what was discussed for religious personae a while ago. If you do it with respect, then anyone who has a problem with it is *their*
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 1, 2003
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      Leah wrote:
      > On a sidenote: With all this discussion of lesbianism in the past, I'm
      > begining to wonder if that might not be why my persona has been single for
      > her entire life (35 years), inherited her business from her father, and been
      > willing to wander the world for the past 15+ years!? And how would I, as a
      > straight woman, begin to even imagine being able to play such a persona
      > without making a serious *ss out of herself and embarassing herself and
      > every single gay woman out there!? Something I am seriously considering.

      I think it's like what was discussed for religious personae a while ago.
      If you do it with respect, then anyone who has a problem with it is
      *their* problem, not yours.

      Yours,

      Katherine

      --
      Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
      katherine@... http://infotrope.net/sca/
      Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
      "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
    • Kirrily Robert
      ... *snerk* Tell me, did we meet, or perhaps not-quite-meet, at the Cooks and Bards collegium last October? Your name rings a faint bell but I m not sure
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 1, 2003
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        Agnese wrote:
        > if only to disconsert the Ealdormerian men.
        > ..which doesn't take much...

        *snerk*

        Tell me, did we meet, or perhaps not-quite-meet, at the Cooks and Bards
        collegium last October? Your name rings a faint bell but I'm not sure
        whether we've met or not.

        Yours,

        Katherine

        --
        Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
        katherine@... http://infotrope.net/sca/
        Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
        "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
      • hasoferet@aol.com
        In a message dated 7/31/2003 11:41:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Wait until you re elderly...say twenty-five or so...and marry a dashing widower with a
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 1, 2003
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          In a message dated 7/31/2003 11:41:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
          ahelou@... writes:


          > I also think, though, that I may "retire"
          > that aspect of the persona eventually - it's not usually something one keeps
          >
          > up forever.
          >

          Wait until you're elderly...say twenty-five or so...and marry a dashing
          widower with a beautiful library housed a country villa?

          Raquel


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • hasoferet@aol.com
          In a message dated 8/1/2003 7:25:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, ... On the other hand, the Cairo Geniza has documents covering the life of a strong-minded
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 1, 2003
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            In a message dated 8/1/2003 7:25:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
            kmaitland@... writes:


            > Very possible, but it is just as likely that the men in your persona's life
            > could not handle a strong independent woman. LOL. Now that I think of it, I
            > do not recall in my research and reading any of the Black businesswomen of
            > late period Spain (and mid-period Egypt) being married either.

            On the other hand, the Cairo Geniza has documents covering the life of a
            strong-minded businesswoman named Wuhsha who seems to at least have had a
            gentleman in her life, and I seem to recall that the Prophet Mohammed's first wife was
            intitally his boss. I think a successful business woman can generally find a
            husband if she wants one. ;)

            Raquel


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Leah A. Montgomery
            ... And after talking it through with my husband last night, I realized that I could just play her as if she has been like this all along, without making any
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 1, 2003
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              >It doesn't need to be embarrassing to anyone if it's played subtly and
              >honestly - or, perhaps, not even "played" at all.

              And after talking it through with my husband last night, I realized that I
              could just play her as if she has been like this all along, without making
              any changes to her at all. The two big things are that she has never been in
              a relationship with a man, and she is always around women and her friends
              are women. This may not seem to big considering the era that we are playing,
              but she is a world wise character and not all places in the world are female
              backwards, including her own home, where if a woman obviously isn't going to
              do the normal thing of marriage home kids, she's frequently accepted as 'one
              of the boys' so to speak. So I make no changes to her at all, and continue
              to play her as I have been.




              Leah A. Montgomery
              SCA: Safia bint Wahib al Marakeshi called Samira
              Head of Byat Al Viola Hirrar
              Bryn Gwlad, Ansteorra (Austin, TX)
              mog_bane@...

              _________________________________________________________________
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            • ahelou
              ... Yeah, that s the general idea . Vittoria
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 1, 2003
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                >===== Original Message From hasoferet@... =====
                >Wait until you're elderly...say twenty-five or so...and marry a dashing
                >widower with a beautiful library housed a country villa?
                >
                >Raquel

                Yeah, that's the general idea <g>.


                Vittoria
              • Heather Rose Jones
                ... If a woman is looking for historic contexts in which to be unmarried, I think there are a lot more obvious ones than lesbianism. For several years I ve
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 1, 2003
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                  > >===== Original Message From "Leah A. Montgomery"
                  ><mog_bane@...> =====
                  >>On a sidenote: With all this discussion of lesbianism in the past, I'm
                  >>begining to wonder if that might not be why my persona has been single for
                  >>her entire life (35 years), inherited her business from her father, and been
                  >>willing to wander the world for the past 15+ years!? And how would I, as a
                  >>straight woman, begin to even imagine being able to play such a persona
                  >>without making a serious *ss out of herself and embarassing herself and
                  > >every single gay woman out there!? Something I am seriously considering.

                  If a woman is looking for historic contexts in which to be unmarried,
                  I think there are a lot more obvious ones than lesbianism. For
                  several years I've been promoting the book:

                  Bennett, Judith M. & Amy M. Froide eds.. 1999. Singlewomen in the
                  European Past 1250-1800. Univerisy of Pennsylvania Press,
                  Philadelphia. ISBN 0-8122-1668-7

                  This collection of papers addresses issues around single women (by
                  various definitions) in a wide variety of cultures, eras and
                  contexts. If there is a single take-home message, it's that no valid
                  generalizations can be made across Europe and across the centuries
                  about what women did or did not do with regard to marriage or the
                  lack thereof.

                  It's a great book for disabusing oneself of a lot of the myths and
                  "common knowledge) around the subject (e.g., expected age of
                  marriage, proportion of non-married women at various life stages,
                  economic options for unmarried women). And the book was recently
                  listed in the UPenn book catalog at a drastically reduced price, so
                  there's no excuse for anyone not to buy a copy!

                  Oh, and note that one of the editors is the Judith Bennett whose name
                  has come up previously in this thread. She is a goddess among
                  historians. I worship at her feet.

                  Tangwystyl
                  --
                  *****
                  Heather Rose Jones
                  hrjones@...
                  *****
                • Kristine Maitland
                  Very possible, but it is just as likely that the men in your persona s life could not handle a strong independent woman. LOL. Now that I think of it, I do not
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 1, 2003
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                    Very possible, but it is just as likely that the men in your persona's life could not handle a strong independent woman. LOL. Now that I think of it, I do not recall in my research and reading any of the Black businesswomen of late period Spain (and mid-period Egypt) being married either.

                    The more things change... grin

                    I wouldn't worry about it Safia -- I'm queer (bi, if you wanna get technical) and I've being playing a straight persona for over a decade. I played a courtesan for 7 yrs (and I'm thinking of going back to it), if only to disconsert the Ealdormerian men.

                    ...which doesn't take much...

                    in service

                    Agnese "Inez" Rusconi
                    Historian for the Barony of Ben Dunfirth
                    Ealdormere

                    mundanely:
                    Kristine Maitland
                    Researcher of alternative histories
                    www.kmaitland.ca


                    -----
                    On a sidenote: With all this discussion of lesbianism in the past, I'm
                    begining to wonder if that might not be why my persona has been single for
                    her entire life (35 years), inherited her business from her father, and been
                    willing to wander the world for the past 15+ years!? And how would I, as a
                    straight woman, begin to even imagine being able to play such a persona
                    without making a serious *ss out of herself and embarassing herself and
                    every single gay woman out there!? Something I am seriously considering.


                    Leah A. Montgomery
                    SCA: Safia bint Wahib al Marakeshi called Samira
                    Head of Byat Al Viola Hirrar
                    Bryn Gwlad, Ansteorra (Austin, TX)
                    mog_bane@...

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jan C. Lane
                    With all this discussion of lesbianism in the past, I m beginning to wonder if that might not be why my persona has been single for her entire life (35
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 3, 2003
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                      "With all this discussion of lesbianism in the past, I'm beginning to wonder
                      if that might not be why my persona has been single for her entire life (35
                      years), inherited her business from her father, and been willing to wander
                      the world for the past 15+ years!?"

                      It's a good thing to remember that sexuality, like many other things in
                      life, isn't a black and white issue. We have those who are exclusively
                      homosexual at one end and those who are exclusively heterosexual at the
                      other and those who are truly bisexual in the middle. By "exclusively", I
                      mean that these persons have never had sexual experiences or desires other
                      than those of their orientation. However, there's a whole lot of room
                      in-between the exclusives.

                      Now, the definitions rely on both sexual desire and sexual practice. A
                      woman who has never married may not be homosexual at all. The same can be
                      said of a man. Perhaps she has never met a man whom she felt was worthy of
                      her. Perhaps her goals lie in other directions. After all, she's
                      financially independent and may not want children. Perhaps the thought of
                      sexual intimacy in any form is frightening. Perhaps she's simply not
                      interested in sex with anyone, male or female. In other words, there are
                      many reasons why people don't marry, and sexual orientation isn't the only
                      one. :)

                      In service,

                      Jannifer
                    • Jehan du Lac
                      You have said well, madame. There are many reasons not to marry. My brother Anne is one such. As a minister of the Reform he is not constrained to celibacy
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 3, 2003
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                        You have said well, madame. There are many reasons not to marry. My
                        brother Anne is one such. As a minister of the Reform he is not
                        constrained to celibacy like a papist, but he prefereth the comfort of
                        his Greek and Hebrew texts and as to heirs I consider that he regardeth
                        those he hath taught at Strasbourg, Geneva, and Saumur as his children
                        in some fashion. But I do not think he useth those habits well-known
                        amongst schoolmasters, though he be firm with the rod. Mr. Knowlton's
                        opinion that no woman would have him should be disregarded as he is no
                        good judge of that. And amongst the country people where I dwell many
                        of their daughters go into service in the towns, many hoping thereby to
                        earn their dowries, but not all doe and so many remain single and many
                        sons are constrained to remain boys all their life for fear of dividing
                        the patrimony of the family and indeed such concern is shown as well
                        amongst the noblesse, who are possessed of more and the more jealous to
                        guard it, not spending the family heritage on dowries and jointures and
                        the like unless there is benefit to be gained and in Italy I have heard
                        many of the daughters are sent into convents to save the family the
                        expense, to the girls' great displeasure. In my own family being the
                        youngest son I was forced to find my own way with little property as
                        many Gascons do, some to great glory like M. de Monluc but many more to
                        be wasted on the fields of war, and as we all know one cannot support a
                        wife without the wherewithal to keep a house, whether amongst the menu
                        peuple or the artisans or the noblesse, and so I chose a wife late in
                        my life and lost her to the hazards all womankind are prone to,
                        although in my youth I did take my comfort with those sorts that follow
                        the camp and used them not ill for even in difficult times I did
                        provide for such issue as I had of them and now these days doe most
                        take comfort with mon sien compagnon for though he is English we share
                        a soul as did my late neighbor M. de Montaigne and his great friend La
                        Boetie even as he hath written in his great booke, and for now I am
                        content although my sister doth ever connive to find me a new wife and
                        hath even searched one out for Mr. Knowlton although he liketh none so
                        far.

                        Jehan


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Jan C. Lane" <jclane@...>
                        Date: Sunday, August 3, 2003 10:38 am
                        Subject: RE: [Authentic_SCA] Re:Cross dressing, lesbians and the law

                        > "With all this discussion of lesbianism in the past, I'm beginning
                        > to wonder
                        > if that might not be why my persona has been single for her entire
                        > life (35
                        > years), inherited her business from her father, and been willing
                        > to wander
                        > the world for the past 15+ years!?"
                        >
                        > It's a good thing to remember that sexuality, like many other
                        > things in
                        > life, isn't a black and white issue. We have those who are
                        > exclusivelyhomosexual at one end and those who are exclusively
                        > heterosexual at the
                        > other and those who are truly bisexual in the middle. By
                        > "exclusively", I
                        > mean that these persons have never had sexual experiences or
                        > desires other
                        > than those of their orientation. However, there's a whole lot of room
                        > in-between the exclusives.
                        >
                        > Now, the definitions rely on both sexual desire and sexual
                        > practice. A
                        > woman who has never married may not be homosexual at all. The
                        > same can be
                        > said of a man. Perhaps she has never met a man whom she felt was
                        > worthy of
                        > her. Perhaps her goals lie in other directions. After all, she's
                        > financially independent and may not want children. Perhaps the
                        > thought of
                        > sexual intimacy in any form is frightening. Perhaps she's simply not
                        > interested in sex with anyone, male or female. In other words,
                        > there are
                        > many reasons why people don't marry, and sexual orientation isn't
                        > the only
                        > one. :)
                        >
                        > In service,
                        >
                        > Jannifer
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • ahelou
                        ... Maitre Jehan, If you will forgive my impertinence for joining this conversation uninvited, allow me to say that, if you were indeed the neighbor of M. de
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 3, 2003
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                          >===== Original Message From Jehan du Lac <baronjehan@...> =====
                          > for even in difficult times I did
                          >provide for such issue as I had of them and now these days doe most
                          >take comfort with mon sien compagnon for though he is English we share
                          >a soul as did my late neighbor M. de Montaigne and his great friend La
                          >Boetie even as he hath written in his great booke, ...
                          >Jehan

                          Maitre Jehan,

                          If you will forgive my impertinence for joining this conversation uninvited,
                          allow me to say that, if you were indeed the neighbor of M. de Montaigne, you
                          must count yourself among the most fortunate men in France! It is only a few
                          months ago that I first had the pleasure of reading his essays, and those on
                          education I most particularly enjoyed. I have often wished to travel into
                          France (and travel, as M. de Montaigne advises, is a necessary part of the
                          best educations), for I greatly love the language, which, though not so
                          beautiful as my native Tuscan, is yet an elegant one, and I flatter myself
                          that I speak it not without some accuracy and grace; yet more than that,
                          France has in the last century produced so many great poets and philosophers,
                          that I would wish above all for the opportunity to become acquainted with
                          them. Florence does not lack in philosophers nor in scholars, but that the
                          ones I most admire should live elsewhere is a constant disappointment.


                          Vittoria
                        • Jehan du Lac
                          I have indeed visited with M. de Montaigne in his chateau and he was a most amiable fellow, although grievously afflicted with the stone. He hath a tower for
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 3, 2003
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                            I have indeed visited with M. de Montaigne in his chateau and he was a
                            most amiable fellow, although grievously afflicted with the stone. He
                            hath a tower for his study and contemplation which is most pleasant
                            filled with more books than e'er I have seen in one place (or he did,
                            his wife and daughter having no use for that great library nowadays).
                            He did the king my master much good service and was well-enough
                            esteemed hereabouts that his goods and property were largely unmolested
                            during the late wars, though he be a Catholic. As to philosophy, my
                            Latin is not good and so I avoid it, my bible and psalter in the French
                            tongue being largely sufficient for me in the matter of books, although
                            I do have a great pleasure in the news and will spend a few sous when
                            the colporteur doth come by with his wares, but I confess that when M.
                            de Montaigne's book was put on sale in Bordeaux I did spend a fair bit
                            to have it bound for it did amaze me to be acquainted with one that
                            hath written such a book, and yet it had no great matter in it at all,
                            as it were, being but his own musings within himself, as if one were to
                            his closet with a bit of wine after dinner, and though he be now
                            deceased I do take some pleasure to read from his book a little and
                            hear his voice. I was much taken with his recounting of the matter of
                            the cannibals. He did ever mourn for La Boetie, though he made little
                            conversation of it with his neighbors and it is only in reading his
                            book that I heard his cry for his lost friend and so I have wondered if
                            he did but write it to find another such in this world. I do not
                            particularly know Mlle. de Gournay, his fille d'alliance, but I have no
                            doubt, gracious lady, that you would be another such to him were he
                            still living to have your acquaintance.

                            Jehan

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: ahelou <ahelou@...>
                            Date: Sunday, August 3, 2003 6:31 pm
                            Subject: RE: [Authentic_SCA] Re:Cross dressing, lesbians and the law

                            > >===== Original Message From Jehan du Lac <baronjehan@...>
                            > =====> for even in difficult times I did
                            > >provide for such issue as I had of them and now these days doe most
                            > >take comfort with mon sien compagnon for though he is English we
                            > share>a soul as did my late neighbor M. de Montaigne and his great
                            > friend La
                            > >Boetie even as he hath written in his great booke, ...
                            > >Jehan
                            >
                            > Maitre Jehan,
                            >
                            > If you will forgive my impertinence for joining this conversation
                            > uninvited,
                            > allow me to say that, if you were indeed the neighbor of M. de
                            > Montaigne, you
                            > must count yourself among the most fortunate men in France! It is
                            > only a few
                            > months ago that I first had the pleasure of reading his essays,
                            > and those on
                            > education I most particularly enjoyed. I have often wished to
                            > travel into
                            > France (and travel, as M. de Montaigne advises, is a necessary
                            > part of the
                            > best educations), for I greatly love the language, which, though
                            > not so
                            > beautiful as my native Tuscan, is yet an elegant one, and I
                            > flatter myself
                            > that I speak it not without some accuracy and grace; yet more than
                            > that,
                            > France has in the last century produced so many great poets and
                            > philosophers,
                            > that I would wish above all for the opportunity to become
                            > acquainted with
                            > them. Florence does not lack in philosophers nor in scholars, but
                            > that the
                            > ones I most admire should live elsewhere is a constant disappointment.
                            >
                            >
                            > Vittoria
                            >
                            >
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