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Re: [Authentic_SCA] 1st garb/tunic + surcoat

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  • Carolin
    ... Well, the problem here is indeed that a sideless surcoat with very very deep armholes appears only later around mid-14th century if I remember correctly
    Message 1 of 12 , May 28, 2003
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      Kristyne writes:

      >
      >Jehanne de Wodeford was kind enough to point out that an unbelted cyclas is
      >going to be a nuisance in the wind and perhaps a sideless surcoat would be a
      >better option. Because my tunic is pretty loose allover and full from the hips
      >down, rather than the closer fitting designs I've seen under surcoats so far,
      >I'm worried about (a) looking like I got my clothes from 2 different time
      >periods and (b) whether or not I need to add gores to the surcoat so it lays
      >properly over the tunic. Any opinions?

      Well, the problem here is indeed that a sideless surcoat with very
      very deep armholes appears only later around mid-14th century if I
      remember correctly and is worn as a fancy overdress together with a
      fitted dress.
      in the first half of the 14th century you would have a tunic like you
      made and a surcoat over that... but the surcoat would be wider, the
      sleeves less deep... well... basically like the surcoats seen in the
      Manesse Codex, think
      http://www.tempora-nostra.de/manesse/img/006.jpg the guy on the left
      for example (women and men wore basically the same clothes, only the
      length varied a bit) ... but that's probably what people here call a
      cyclas ... however, I can't see what the problem is with a cyclas?
      (reading digest here and having extremely little time ...)
      but... i would advise you not to wear an unfitted tunic with the
      later surcoat style - the "gates of hell" (the large armholes) were
      supposed to show off your waist and lower back... I don't know how
      matters for a "pellote" are however...they look a bit like a later
      sideless surcote, but there are paintings from the 13th century
      showing them worn over a basic tunic.

      one other thing you might want to try out - i did this recently and
      loved the look - if you are going for the manesse look, sew you
      sleeves from your elbow down tight to your arm after you put on your
      tunic (or let someone help you with this). it's a perfectly period
      way to do it and you get the tight sleeves and it puffs up a bit
      above the elbow (and this explanation really stinks ;))

      if anyone else has said the same already, i sincerely apologize...
      digest and stuff
      --
      Yours,
      Carolin

      ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
      Carolin vom Adlersberg Barony of Storvik, Atlantia
      http://www.adlersberg.net
    • demontsegur
      ... your ... Y know, this jogged my memory of something I came across when reading _La Roman de la Rose_ (in English, though, not French)... The translation I
      Message 2 of 12 , May 28, 2003
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        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Carolin <carolin@a...> wrote:
        > if you are going for the manesse look, sew you
        > sleeves from your elbow down tight to your arm after you put on
        your
        > tunic (or let someone help you with this). it's a perfectly period
        > way to do it and you get the tight sleeves and it puffs up a bit
        > above the elbow (and this explanation really stinks ;))

        Y'know, this jogged my memory of something I came across when
        reading _La Roman de la Rose_ (in English, though, not French)...
        The translation I had made mention of a man 'stitching' himself into
        his sleeves, but it rather opens the question about whether or
        not 'stitching' is, in fact, a form of LACING that is described as
        stitching in the early-mid 13th century (when Guillaume de Lorris
        wrote the portion I'm about to quote below). Here's the quote, and
        you can decide for yourself:

        "I got up from bed straightway, put on my stockings and washed my
        hands. Then I drew a silver needle from a dainty little needlecase
        and threaded it. I had a desire to go out of the town to hear the
        sound of birds who, in that new season, were singing among the
        trees. I stitched up my sleeves in zigzag lacing and set out, quite
        alone, to enjoy myself listening to the birds..."

        I almost get the feeling that he used the needle as a sort of proto-
        aglet to guide the thread through eyelets that may already be
        present on his sleeves. Perhaps I'm stretching too much, too. :^)

        Thoughts? Commentary?

        -Marcele
      • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
        ... I think you re stretching too much here. A silver needle drawn from a dainty little needlecase isn t likely to be like a bodkin or an aglet to my
        Message 3 of 12 , May 29, 2003
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          "I got up from bed straightway, put on my stockings and washed my
          hands. Then I drew a silver needle from a dainty little needlecase
          and threaded it. I had a desire to go out of the town to hear the
          sound of birds who, in that new season, were singing among the
          trees. I stitched up my sleeves in zigzag lacing and set out, quite
          alone, to enjoy myself listening to the birds..."

          I almost get the feeling that he used the needle as a sort of proto-
          aglet to guide the thread through eyelets that may already be
          present on his sleeves. Perhaps I'm stretching too much, too. :^)

          Thoughts? Commentary?

          I think you're stretching too much here.  A "silver needle" drawn from a "dainty little needlecase" isn't likely to be like a bodkin or an aglet to my mind.  I think he took a needle and stitched himself into his clothing.

          Just my opinion,
          Smiles,
          Despina
        • Marsha McLean
          I think you re stretching too much here. A silver needle drawn from a dainty little needlecase isn t likely to be like a bodkin or an aglet to my mind. I
          Message 4 of 12 , May 29, 2003
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            I think you're stretching too much here.  A "silver needle" drawn from a "dainty little needlecase" isn't likely to be like a bodkin or an aglet to my mind.  I think he took a needle and stitched himself into his clothing.

            Just my opinion,
            Smiles,
            Despina

             

            I agree.  Madinia



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          • Karen
            ... I think the needle is being used as what I d call a bodkin -- kind of a blunt needle-like tool that I use to lace bits of my 18th century set. Not so
            Message 5 of 12 , May 29, 2003
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              Marcele wrote:

              > I almost get the feeling that he used the needle as a sort of
              > proto-aglet to guide the thread through eyelets that may already
              > be present on his sleeves. Perhaps I'm stretching too much, too. :^)

              I think the needle is being used as what I'd call a "bodkin" -- kind of
              a blunt needle-like tool that I use to lace bits of my 18th century
              set. Not so much proto-aglet, but a useful tool all on its own :)

              I used to have a good silver (or perhaps stainless steel) bodkin, but
              lately I've been using a handmade wooden one that seems to be doing a
              good job. One can obtain such tools from various places --
              http://www.woodedhamlet.com/needlework_tools/bodkins.html sells some in
              brass or silver. Antiques occasionally come up on eBay (there's a late
              19th century needlework set at
              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3223807153 which
              includes a bodkin); as to what they looked like in period, I have no
              idea, but there's a picture of a 17th century bodkin at
              http://www.bexfield.co.uk/b058.htm and a 16th century bodkin at
              http://www.masstreasure.com/fom_finds3.html

              As to what exactly this tool would have been called in period, I am not
              sure. Perhaps they just used the same word as "needle"; it essentially
              is just that. "Bodkin" can mean any number of narrow pointy (generally
              metal) things, including daggers, awls, hairpins, arrowheads, etc.; for
              example, Jamestown's artifacts include hairpins which they refer to as
              bodkins (http://www.apva.org/ngex/c10bodk.html) ... and of course
              Shakespeare is more likely talking about knives in his references to
              bodkins ("When he himself might his quietus make / With a bare bodkin?"
              in Hamlet III.i; "betwixt the firmament and it you cannot thrust a
              bodkin's point" in Winter's Tale III.iii; "The head of a bodkin" in
              Love's Labor's Lost V.ii).

              Karen
            • ladymorwenna
              ... It s probably best to check the French and see what was translated as needle . As is often said, translations are like mistresses, the beautiful ones are
              Message 6 of 12 , May 29, 2003
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                > "I got up from bed straightway, put on my stockings and washed my
                > hands. Then I drew a silver needle from a dainty little needlecase
                > and threaded it. I had a desire to go out of the town to hear the
                > sound of birds who, in that new season, were singing among the
                > trees. I stitched up my sleeves in zigzag lacing and set out, quite
                > alone, to enjoy myself listening to the birds..."
                >
                > I almost get the feeling that he used the needle as a sort of proto-
                > aglet to guide the thread through eyelets that may already be
                > present on his sleeves. Perhaps I'm stretching too much, too. :^)
                >
                > Thoughts? Commentary?
                >
                > -Marcele

                It's probably best to check the French and see what was translated as
                "needle". As is often said, translations are like mistresses, the
                beautiful ones are rarely faithful. : )

                --Morwenna
              • Marsha McLean
                ... From: Karen [mailto:karen_larsdatter@yahoo.com] As to what exactly this tool would have been called in period, I am not sure. Perhaps they just used the
                Message 7 of 12 , May 29, 2003
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                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Karen [mailto:karen_larsdatter@...]
                  As to what exactly this tool would have been called in period, I am not
                  sure. Perhaps they just used the same word as "needle";

                  No, they called it a bodkin.

                  and of course
                  Shakespeare is more likely talking about knives in his references to
                  bodkins ("When he himself might his quietus make / With a bare bodkin?"
                  in Hamlet III.i; "betwixt the firmament and it you cannot thrust a
                  bodkin's point" in Winter's Tale III.iii; "The head of a bodkin" in
                  Love's Labor's Lost V.ii).

                  I dunno. A needle like item would fit these lines perfectly.
                  Especially the "head" of a bodkin. Pins/needles have them, knives do
                  not.

                  Madinia
                • demontsegur
                  ... I find it interesting that folks are centering on the needle/bodkin aspect of the quote... I focused in entirely on the zigzag lacing aspect. :^) It
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 29, 2003
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marsha McLean"
                    <marshamclean@r...> wrote:
                    > bodkin.

                    I find it interesting that folks are centering on the "needle/bodkin"
                    aspect of the quote... I focused in entirely on the "zigzag lacing"
                    aspect. :^) It was that latter part that made me suspect the subject
                    was wearing a garment with eyelets but that a dedicated lace (with
                    aguillette/aglet/chape) had not yet become the norm (perhaps). Just
                    speculation.

                    Morwenna, I do like your suggestion, and I think you're right! The
                    mystery can best be examined in the original French... Love that
                    adage about translations being like mistresses. Brought a smile to my
                    face. :^D

                    -Marcele
                  • Heather Rose Jones
                    ... Off the top of my head, I ll toss in the observation that I believe there are two functionally different objects commonly referred to as a bodkin -- one
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 29, 2003
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                      At 10:05 AM -0400 5/29/03, Marsha McLean wrote:
                      >-----Original Message-----
                      >From: Karen [mailto:karen_larsdatter@...]
                      >As to what exactly this tool would have been called in period, I am not
                      >sure. Perhaps they just used the same word as "needle";
                      >
                      >No, they called it a bodkin. 
                      >
                      >and of course
                      >Shakespeare is more likely talking about knives in his references to
                      >bodkins ("When he himself might his quietus make / With a bare bodkin?"
                      >in Hamlet III.i; "betwixt the firmament and it you cannot thrust a
                      >bodkin's point" in Winter's Tale III.iii; "The head of a bodkin" in
                      >Love's Labor's Lost V.ii).
                      >
                      >I dunno. A needle like item would fit these lines perfectly.
                      >Especially the "head" of a bodkin. Pins/needles have them, knives do
                      >not.

                      Off the top of my head, I'll toss in the observation that I believe
                      there are two functionally different objects commonly referred to as
                      a "bodkin" -- one being a large, blunt, eyed needle-like object, and
                      the other being a sharp, pointed awl-like object. And just to
                      confuse the issue, I think that "bodkin" (probably taken from the
                      latter sense) can also be used, at lest metaphorically, for a small
                      knife, or at least a sharpy pokey weapon.

                      Tangwystyl
                      --
                      *****
                      Heather Rose Jones
                      hrjones@...
                      *****
                    • hasoferet@aol.com
                      In a message dated 5/29/2003 6:25:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, ... It s the zigzag lacing that makes me think you might be right in this. Also, depending on
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 29, 2003
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                        In a message dated 5/29/2003 6:25:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, aheilvei@... writes:


                        I stitched up my sleeves in zigzag lacing and set out, quite
                        alone, to enjoy myself listening to the birds..."

                        I almost get the feeling that he used the needle as a sort of proto-
                        aglet to guide the thread through eyelets that may already be
                        present on his sleeves. Perhaps I'm stretching too much, too. :^)



                        It's the 'zigzag lacing' that makes me think you might be right in this. Also, depending on how frequently you change your shirt, it seems a waste of thread to keep sewing yourself in over and over.

                        Raquel
                      • Arianne de Chateaumichel
                        ... Remember, this is a guy (right?). I don t know about other men, but my husband considers even my largest needles to be quite small, dainty in other
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 30, 2003
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                          Regarding a quoted passage:

                          >>I almost get the feeling that he used the needle as a sort of proto-
                          >>aglet to guide the thread through eyelets that may already be
                          >>present on his sleeves. Perhaps I'm stretching too much, too. :^)
                          >
                          >I think you're stretching too much here. A "silver needle" drawn from a
                          >"dainty little needlecase" isn't likely to be like a bodkin or an aglet to
                          >my mind. I think he took a needle and stitched himself into his clothing.

                          Remember, this is a guy (right?). I don't know about other men, but my husband
                          considers even my largest needles to be quite small, "dainty" in other words. My
                          largest needles are tapestry needles, quite large enough to be used as a bodkin. I'm
                          seeing him lacing himself in, not truly sewing. It wouldn't take a very thick cord to hold
                          the sleeves shut, so he might not have needed eyelets. The part about stitching his
                          sleeves "in zigzag lacing" reinforces this for me.




                          Your Servant,
                          Lady Arianne de Chateaumichel

                          Shire of Starhaven,
                          Kingdom of Trimaris

                          On the web at <http://www.chateau-michel.org>
                        • Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
                          ... I believe there are also 12th century references to sewing up sleeves. In the 12th century references it is normally assumed to be the upper arm which is
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 1, 2003
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                            > "I got up from bed straightway, put on my stockings and washed my
                            > hands. Then I drew a silver needle from a dainty little needlecase
                            > and threaded it. I had a desire to go out of the town to hear the
                            > sound of birds who, in that new season, were singing among the
                            > trees. I stitched up my sleeves in zigzag lacing and set out, quite
                            > alone, to enjoy myself listening to the birds..."

                            >
                            > -Marcele

                            I believe there are also 12th century references to sewing up sleeves.
                            In the 12th century references it is normally assumed to be the upper
                            arm which is sewn up - the lower arm often has an elaborate daggy bit,
                            and besides you can make a tunic quite tight fitting below the elbow,
                            but above the elbow, you need room to be able to pull the sleeve on.
                            (and besides in the 12th century this is the simplest explaination for
                            tight fitting upper sleeves before the development of seeral crucial
                            tayloring skills such a set in sleeves and curved seams - well as far
                            as we know anyway)

                            However, I doubt I could sew up my upper arm sleeve. I'd even find
                            the lower arm tricky (especially my right arm) on my own even with
                            practise.

                            and I'm not sure I'd refer to that as zigzag lacing. But then again
                            surely there'd be some picture of laced up sleeves - zigzag lacing
                            makes me thing of lacing along the length of the sleeve.
                            Yes most illustrations might not show such a lacing (even as many
                            early to mid period ones don't show seams), but even in the 12ht
                            century there are several illustrations showing side lacing, are there
                            ones showing 13th century laced sleeves?


                            12th century reference to sewing up sleeves (cites other references):

                            Harris, Jennifer, 1998, "'Estroit vestu et menu cosu': evidence for
                            the construction of twelfth century dress" p89-103 in Owen-Crocker G,
                            R, Graham, T (eds) " Medieval art: recent perspectives, A memorial
                            tribute to C.R. Dodwell" Manchester university press


                            Teffania
                            (who admittedly knows next to nothing about 13th century garb, but is
                            trying to study 12th century garb)
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