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OT - Rant of amazement

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  • Rosine
    I just had a weekend visit with one of my protoges, who related to me something so odd that I actually felt an anger-burn in my chest when she told me about
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 1, 2003
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      I just had a weekend visit with one of my protoges, who related to me
      something so odd that I actually felt an anger-burn in my chest when she
      told me about it.

      She's been chewed out, by two different people now, for leaving a token
      of appreciation at an A&S entry when she's admired the work or the
      documentation. Why? "Because she's not a member of an A&S Order and
      shouldn't act like she is one"! She was actually, actually told that what
      she was doing was presumptuous and rude! Her husband was sitting beside her
      and nodding his head in agreement as she recounted the statements and asked
      my advice (I didn't ask and she didn't volunteer, who'd said such things to
      her.)
      Am I off here, or does that just strike you as the most bizarre thing to
      hear about in a "courteous" society? I ordered (my first order as a Peer!)
      her to tell anyone who ever says such a thing to her again "My mistress
      Rosine says that I am required to say: that is discourteous and boorish.
      Further, it serves no one as well as renders a diservice to our A&S
      community. She asks that you contact her if you have any complaints or
      questions about her order to me." And then she is to walk, or turn, away and
      ignore the person.
      It wasn't a nice thing to lay on my protegee, but it was the best I could
      think of at the moment that wasn't obscene in verbage.
      Now that I've calmed down a bit - have you run across such an attitude in
      your Kingdom? One the whole, or just as a one or two person oddity?

      Rosine
    • Ii Saburou
      ... I think she is entirely correct and the people who said such things are way out of line. There is no requirement to be a part of an A&S polling order in
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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        On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Rosine wrote:

        > She's been chewed out, by two different people now, for leaving a token
        > of appreciation at an A&S entry when she's admired the work or the
        > documentation. Why? "Because she's not a member of an A&S Order and
        > shouldn't act like she is one"! She was actually, actually told that what
        > she was doing was presumptuous and rude! Her husband was sitting beside her
        > and nodding his head in agreement as she recounted the statements and asked
        > my advice (I didn't ask and she didn't volunteer, who'd said such things to
        > her.)

        I think she is entirely correct and the people who said such things are
        way out of line. There is no requirement to be a part of an A&S polling
        order in order to give appreciation to others and encourage arts--if
        anything this is a reason to consider someone for admittance rather than
        calling them presumptuous.

        > Now that I've calmed down a bit - have you run across such an attitude in
        > your Kingdom? One the whole, or just as a one or two person oddity?

        I have never run across this attitude in this form, but it sounds like
        people who want to be in those orders (or unfortunately made it in) and
        want to make sure that they stay 'special' and above the 'common' folk.
        (Note: I find this attitude more in wannabes than in actual members of
        said orders--perhaps because the orders realize the wannabes for the
        grubby power-grabbers that they are.)

        -Ii
      • Cassandra ofGlastonbury
        ... to me ... when she ... a token ... that what ... beside her ... and asked ... things to ... thing to ... Peer!) ... mistress ... boorish. ... or ... away
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Rosine" <Rosine@s...> wrote:
          > I just had a weekend visit with one of my protoges, who related
          to me
          > something so odd that I actually felt an anger-burn in my chest
          when she
          > told me about it.
          >
          > She's been chewed out, by two different people now, for leaving
          a token
          > of appreciation at an A&S entry when she's admired the work or the
          > documentation. Why? "Because she's not a member of an A&S Order and
          > shouldn't act like she is one"! She was actually, actually told
          that what
          > she was doing was presumptuous and rude! Her husband was sitting
          beside her
          > and nodding his head in agreement as she recounted the statements
          and asked
          > my advice (I didn't ask and she didn't volunteer, who'd said such
          things to
          > her.)
          > Am I off here, or does that just strike you as the most bizarre
          thing to
          > hear about in a "courteous" society? I ordered (my first order as a
          Peer!)
          > her to tell anyone who ever says such a thing to her again "My
          mistress
          > Rosine says that I am required to say: that is discourteous and
          boorish.
          > Further, it serves no one as well as renders a diservice to our A&S
          > community. She asks that you contact her if you have any complaints
          or
          > questions about her order to me." And then she is to walk, or turn,
          away and
          > ignore the person.
          > It wasn't a nice thing to lay on my protegee, but it was the
          best I could
          > think of at the moment that wasn't obscene in verbage.
          > Now that I've calmed down a bit - have you run across such an
          attitude in
          > your Kingdom? One the whole, or just as a one or two person oddity?
          >
          > Rosine

          As someone who has received appreciation tokens, I find this odd.
          Did not know you needed to be a Laurel to appreciate someones work
          and say so.

          Cassandra
        • demontsegur
          ... token ... that what ... I m so sorry this has happened, and it sounds like someone is woefully behind the times and needs to be brought up to speed. In the
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Rosine" <Rosine@s...> wrote:
            > She's been chewed out, by two different people now, for leaving a
            token
            > of appreciation at an A&S entry when she's admired the work or the
            > documentation. Why? "Because she's not a member of an A&S Order and
            > shouldn't act like she is one"! She was actually, actually told
            that what
            > she was doing was presumptuous and rude!

            I'm so sorry this has happened, and it sounds like someone is
            woefully behind the times and needs to be brought up to speed. In the
            East, at least, our present Queen has been openly encouraging the
            populace to bring tokens to bestow on works that please them. She has
            been explicit about the idea that _anyone_ can do this for anyone's
            work. Rosine, maybe you _should_ ask exactly who chastised your
            protege and have a quiet talk with that person in private. I'm not a
            peer, so I'm not offering this suggestion up as though I really know
            the ropes, but from an inter-person commmunication POV, I'm guessing
            this person could be going around spoiling other people's fun too,
            and possibly only out of ignorance. If they will listen to anyone,
            hopefully it will be to you, a peer.

            I must admit that until I actually was inducted into a polling order,
            I had a vague idea that bestowing tokens was the 'work' of only
            members of such orders and that I'd best not overstep my bounds.
            Then, around the time I was inducted, there seemed to be this sea-
            change in the arts of the East in which the idea of tokens blossomed
            and became available to everyone as a way to show appreciation. I
            have to wonder where I got that vague idea of it being only for
            polling orders in the first place. Obviously something/someone gave
            it to me in the past. Perhaps it was from event announcements with
            lines like, "Members of the Order of the Laurel and Maunche, please
            bring tokens to bestow upon works that please you," or somesuch. I'm
            glad such restriction, real or imagined, is banished now, at least in
            my kingdom. :^)

            -Marcele
          • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
            ... This is not only bizzare, but rude. How dare someone presume the right to govern another s opinion. I realize that you want to avoid further strife, but
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                 She's been chewed out, by two different people now, for leaving a token
              of appreciation at an A&S entry when she's admired the work or the
              documentation. Why? "Because she's not a member of an A&S Order and
              shouldn't act like she is one"! She was actually, actually told that what
              she was doing was presumptuous and rude! Her husband was sitting beside her
              and nodding his head in agreement as she recounted the statements and asked
              my advice (I didn't ask and she didn't volunteer, who'd said such things to
              her.)

              This is not only bizzare, but rude.  How dare someone presume the right to govern another's opinion.  I realize that you want to avoid further strife, but I'd ask who the people were that gave her what for for this; then approach them privately and speak with them.  If they did it to your apprentice, I've no doubt that they've done it to others.  Having your apprentice send people to you for the matter is one thing, but you really should deal with these sorts.  I'm not saying to dress them down, but pointing out that it's an honor for the artisan to receive a token from anyone and that sort of thing is not out of line, IMO.

              It's also possible to bring this up in a meeting of your Order - how wonderful it is that the general population is beginning to show more appreciation for the Arts and Sciences by leaving tokens at displays that please them... thus, spreading the idea among the members of your Order to encourage such action in their dependants.  Just a thought.

              Smiles,
              Despina de la not an expert in these matters so the advice is free, you get what you pay for....


              He was a man of decided opinions, many of which had been decided long ago and on insufficient evidence

            • loreleimorte@aol.com
              In a message dated 4/2/2003 1:31:20 AM Central Standard Time, ... Wow, it s hearing stuff like this that makes me terrified to get more involved in A&S stuff .
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                In a message dated 4/2/2003 1:31:20 AM Central Standard Time, Rosine@... writes:

                She's been chewed out, by two different people now, for leaving a token
                of appreciation at an A&S entry when she's admired the work or the
                documentation. Why? "Because she's not a member of an A&S Order and
                shouldn't act like she is one"! She was actually, actually told that what
                she was doing was presumptuous and rude! Her husband was sitting beside her
                and nodding his head in agreement as she recounted the statements and asked
                my advice (I didn't ask and she didn't volunteer, who'd said such things to
                her.)


                Wow, it's hearing stuff like this that makes me terrified to get more involved in A&S stuff .  I love research, I love authenticity, I even like writing little research papers, and I think it would be fun to enter a contest and even get a little feedback. I think it would be so fun to make little tokens and leave them for people who's work tickles me, but I'm Schmoe Q. Nobody in the SCA and it bothers me to think that there are people who live to remind me of that.

                Sarra Wryght
                http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/
              • Karen
                ... [ ... ] ... Much agreed with Ii s comments. While I wouldn t doubt that such rude people exist in our organization, and in our kingdom (for those of you
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                  Rosine asked:

                  > She's been chewed out, by two different people now, for leaving
                  > a token of appreciation at an A&S entry when she's admired the
                  > work or the documentation. Why? "Because she's not a member of
                  > an A&S Order and shouldn't act like she is one"! She was
                  > actually, actually told that what she was doing was presumptuous
                  > and rude!
                  [ ... ]
                  > Now that I've calmed down a bit - have you run across such an
                  > attitude in your Kingdom? One the whole, or just as a one or
                  > two person oddity?

                  Ii replied:

                  > I have never run across this attitude in this form, but it sounds
                  > like people who want to be in those orders (or unfortunately made
                  > it in) and want to make sure that they stay 'special' and above
                  > the 'common' folk. (Note: I find this attitude more in wannabes
                  > than in actual members of said orders--perhaps because the orders
                  > realize the wannabes for the grubby power-grabbers that they are.)

                  Much agreed with Ii's comments. While I wouldn't doubt that such rude
                  people exist in our organization, and in our kingdom (for those of you
                  not entirely clear on your geography, Ii-dono and I live in the same
                  barony [I live in the northern part, he lives in the central part];
                  Rosine is the baroness of a barony about 200 miles southeast of us), it
                  is not behavior that I can recall witnessing, but it is certainly not
                  beyond my ability to imagine such athing happening.

                  I also agree with Ii's profile of the psychology of that sort of
                  rudeness.

                  Were my protege to encounter such a thing (which is somewhat unlikely,
                  since her work has meant that she's relatively inactive in the SCA at
                  this point), I would probably counsel her to apologize for hurting the
                  complainer's feelings, clarify that she wanted to provide the artisan
                  with positive feedback on his or her work, and suggest that the
                  complainer contact me directly to voice his or her concerns about my
                  protege's actions.

                  Sample AND VERY HYPOTHETICAL dialogue:

                  COMPLAINER: Hey! You can't do that! You're not a member of the Dangly
                  Demographic!

                  PROTEGE: Oh, I'm sorry; I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I didn't
                  realize my actions would be taken that way. I simply wanted to leave a
                  token of praise to the artisan for this wonderful work. Isn't it
                  lovely? I didn't know that it was forbidden for me to do so.

                  COMPLAINER: Well, it is, and I know that, because I'm the Goddess of
                  Correctitude.

                  PROTEGE: Thank you for setting me straight. I really do appreciate it.
                  Would you please contact Karen? She will want to know about my
                  behavior so that she can provide me with more appropriate guidance in
                  the future.

                  [ ... ]

                  COMPLAINER: Hey! Did you know that I caught *your* protege, Lady A.,
                  leaving a token for an artisan?

                  ME: So? Was it something inappropriate?

                  COMPLAINER: I'll say! She's not a member of the Danglies!

                  ME: Was it breaking some kind of rule that she did that?

                  COMPLAINER: Yeah!

                  ME: Actually, she didn't.

                  COMPLAINER: Oh?

                  ME: There is no rule saying that giving tokens of praise is limited to
                  persons of any particular rank.

                  COMPLAINER: Well, X told me otherwise!

                  ME: Well, I'm sorry, but perhaps X was mistaken.

                  COMPLAINER: [stream of invective which is actually beyond my capacity
                  to make up at this time]

                  ME: Bite me.

                  {The End}



                  Karen
                • Darcellena Hartmann
                  When I first read this account I also wanted to launch into a rant of peevedness . I too agree with what everyone has said so far. It s SO VERY wrong that I
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                    When I first read this account I also wanted to launch into a rant of "peevedness".
                     
                    I too agree with what everyone has said so far.  It's SO VERY wrong that I could think of quite of few "unkind"/*()&*^&ULKJHOI&^* things to say in retort, but the nicest way I could sum it up would be "OH PLEASE!!!!". 
                     
                    I have never encountered or experienced such a thing.  In fact, I encourage everyone I can to participate in leaving tokens of appreciation.  I believe also that one of our past Midrealm Queens even encouraged leaving tokens by everyone, not just members of polling orders.
                     
                    As an artisan I give and receive tokens of appreciation.  A simple act signifying appreciation for another's efforts, time, skills, and talent does SO VERY MUCH for the recipient!  There's just nothing like a "thank you" or other similar sentiment to convey appreciation and encouragement!  Even something to the effect of "thanks for the effort even if I disagree with you" can be an acknowledgement and appreciation of effort.  Watch people just beam, glow, and seem to grow right before your eyes!  It's a positively amazing thing that I think does good for both the recipient and the giver!  It can also be a nice way to meet some new friends.
                     
                    I appreciate and cherish each and every token of appreciation given me.  I'll also often wear them suspended from my MOAS emblem necklace.  Should someone perhaps new ask about them it affords me the opportunity to share, explain, and encourage the giving of tokens.  When they are not worn suspended from my officer's emblem necklace I have a special place I keep them in my jewelry box.
                     
                    At frustrating and/or discouraging times of life they could also be used as a means of encouraging, uplifting, and revalidating oneself in one's mind.
                     
                    As I said, what a load of fertilizer!  At least it's spring and someone might be able to use it on their lawn or in the garden! (OD:, giggle, sarcasm)
                     
                    Well, for what's it worth that's my 2 cents.
                     
                    Darcellena 
                     
                    (who's not a Peer of any variety)
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Rosine
                    Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 2:30 AM
                    Subject: [Authentic_SCA] OT - Rant of amazement

                       I just had a weekend visit with one of my protoges, who related to me
                    something so odd that I actually felt an anger-burn in my chest when she
                    told me about it.

                       She's been chewed out, by two different people now, for leaving a token
                    of appreciation at an A&S entry when she's admired the work or the
                    documentation. Why? "Because she's not a member of an A&S Order and
                    shouldn't act like she is one"! She was actually, actually told that what
                    she was doing was presumptuous and rude! Her husband was sitting beside her
                    and nodding his head in agreement as she recounted the statements and asked
                    my advice (I didn't ask and she didn't volunteer, who'd said such things to
                    her.)
                       Am I off here, or does that just strike you as the most bizarre thing to
                    hear about in a "courteous" society? I ordered (my first order as a Peer!)
                    her to tell anyone who ever says such a thing to her again "My mistress
                    Rosine says that I am required to say: that is discourteous and boorish.
                    Further, it serves no one as well as renders a diservice to our A&S
                    community. She asks that you contact her if you have any complaints or
                    questions about her order to me." And then she is to walk, or turn, away and
                    ignore the person.
                       It wasn't a nice thing to lay on my protegee, but it was the best I could
                    think of at the moment that wasn't obscene in verbage.
                      Now that I've calmed down a  bit - have you run across such an attitude in
                    your Kingdom? One the whole, or just as a one or two person oddity?

                    Rosine



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                  • Rosine
                    Karen wrote: and then... ... ... and Rosine laughed so much she choked on her Diet Pepsi. May I forward that message to my
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                      Karen wrote:
                      <snip of lovely scenario dialogs>
                      and then...
                      > ME: Bite me.

                      ... and Rosine laughed so much she choked on her Diet Pepsi. May I forward
                      that message to my protege? It's too good to not share. I'll warn her about
                      drinking while reading.

                      (Although she was apparently approached after leaving the tokens, not during
                      the process, and told this "for her own good since she was making herself
                      look bad to the Pearls and Laurels".)

                      Rosine
                    • zareheh kevorkian
                      An artisan always appreciates tokens of appreciation for his/her work be they Peer or none peer. At least that s the way I see it. For imstance, we have a
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                        An artisan always appreciates tokens of appreciation for his/her work be they Peer or none peer. At least that's the way I see it. For imstance,  we have a tradition here in An Tir that those whose bardic performances please, recieve tokens of appreciation (not just from the peerage). I know I certainly welcomed those tokens and see no change there just because I'm a Laurel. Your protege's experience was unfortunate, but I hope she won't give up her efforts. Sometimes people forget the art and concentrate too much on the competition and prestige.
                         
                        Goran
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Rosine
                        Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 11:30 PM
                        Subject: [Authentic_SCA] OT - Rant of amazement

                           I just had a weekend visit with one of my protoges, who related to me
                        something so odd that I actually felt an anger-burn in my chest when she
                        told me about it.

                           She's been chewed out, by two different people now, for leaving a token
                        of appreciation at an A&S entry when she's admired the work or the
                        documentation. Why? "Because she's not a member of an A&S Order and
                        shouldn't act like she is one"! She was actually, actually told that what
                        she was doing was presumptuous and rude! Her husband was sitting beside her
                        and nodding his head in agreement as she recounted the statements and asked
                        my advice (I didn't ask and she didn't volunteer, who'd said such things to
                        her.)
                           Am I off here, or does that just strike you as the most bizarre thing to
                        hear about in a "courteous" society? I ordered (my first order as a Peer!)
                        her to tell anyone who ever says such a thing to her again "My mistress
                        Rosine says that I am required to say: that is discourteous and boorish.
                        Further, it serves no one as well as renders a diservice to our A&S
                        community. She asks that you contact her if you have any complaints or
                        questions about her order to me." And then she is to walk, or turn, away and
                        ignore the person.
                           It wasn't a nice thing to lay on my protegee, but it was the best I could
                        think of at the moment that wasn't obscene in verbage.
                          Now that I've calmed down a  bit - have you run across such an attitude in
                        your Kingdom? One the whole, or just as a one or two person oddity?

                        Rosine



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                      • zareheh kevorkian
                        Sarra I suspect there are more people out there who would welcome you into the A&S community than those who feed their egoes by insulting others. Find your
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                          Sarra
                          I suspect there are more people out there who would welcome you into the A&S community than those who feed their egoes by insulting others. Find your passion and stick with it.
                          Goran



                          Wow, it's hearing stuff like this that makes me terrified to get more involved in A&S stuff .  I love research, I love authenticity, I even like writing little research papers, and I think it would be fun to enter a contest and even get a little feedback. I think it would be so fun to make little tokens and leave them for people who's work tickles me, but I'm Schmoe Q. Nobody in the SCA and it bothers me to think that there are people who live to remind me of that.

                          Sarra Wryght
                          http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/


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                        • ladymorwenna
                          ... Yeah, but why does she feel it needs to be law that the Queen can bestow tokens on works that please her? Sorry, snarky EK politics... ... I suppose that
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                            > I'm so sorry this has happened, and it sounds like someone is
                            > woefully behind the times and needs to be brought up to speed. In
                            > the East, at least, our present Queen has been openly encouraging
                            > the populace to bring tokens to bestow on works that please them.
                            > She has been explicit about the idea that _anyone_ can do this for
                            > anyone's work.

                            Yeah, but why does she feel it needs to be law that the Queen can
                            bestow tokens on works that please her? Sorry, snarky EK politics...

                            > Perhaps it was from event announcements with
                            > lines like, "Members of the Order of the Laurel and Maunche, please
                            > bring tokens to bestow upon works that please you," or somesuch. I'm
                            > glad such restriction, real or imagined, is banished now, at least
                            > in my kingdom. :^)
                            >
                            > -Marcele

                            I suppose that could be read as a restriction rather than a gentle
                            reminder to the arts order members that part of their job is to
                            promote and encourage arts.

                            I mentioned the incident that starting this discussion to Yevsha who
                            thundered "That's asinine!" I think that about sums it up.

                            Not being allowed to leave a token for an art item because you're not
                            in an arts order is like not being allowed to write a thank you note
                            for work done because you're not in a service order, or applaud a fine
                            feat on the tournament field because you're not in a fighting order.

                            --Morwenna
                            in a ranting mood, just don't ask...
                          • Heather Rose Jones
                            ... I know we re clearly expected to be outraged by this, but I m going to offer a voice of moderation, because the social context for this sort of thing can
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                              At 2:30 AM -0500 4/2/03, Rosine wrote:
                              > I just had a weekend visit with one of my protoges, who related to me
                              >something so odd that I actually felt an anger-burn in my chest when she
                              >told me about it.
                              >
                              > She's been chewed out, by two different people now, for leaving a token
                              >of appreciation at an A&S entry when she's admired the work or the
                              >documentation. Why? "Because she's not a member of an A&S Order and
                              >shouldn't act like she is one"! She was actually, actually told that what
                              >she was doing was presumptuous and rude! Her husband was sitting beside her
                              >and nodding his head in agreement as she recounted the statements and asked
                              >my advice (I didn't ask and she didn't volunteer, who'd said such things to
                              >her.)
                              > Am I off here, or does that just strike you as the most bizarre thing to
                              >hear about in a "courteous" society? I ordered (my first order as a Peer!)
                              >her to tell anyone who ever says such a thing to her again "My mistress
                              >Rosine says that I am required to say: that is discourteous and boorish.
                              >Further, it serves no one as well as renders a diservice to our A&S
                              >community. She asks that you contact her if you have any complaints or
                              >questions about her order to me." And then she is to walk, or turn, away and
                              >ignore the person.
                              > It wasn't a nice thing to lay on my protegee, but it was the best I could
                              >think of at the moment that wasn't obscene in verbage.
                              > Now that I've calmed down a bit - have you run across such an attitude in
                              >your Kingdom? One the whole, or just as a one or two person oddity?

                              I know we're clearly expected to be outraged by this, but I'm going
                              to offer a voice of moderation, because the social context for this
                              sort of thing can be enormously variable. Let's take as an extreme
                              example at one end a formal "Laurel Prize Tourney" event, that has an
                              explicit format of "non-Laurels exhibit work; Laurels examine,
                              discuss, and give tokens". In that specific context then, yes, it
                              _could_ reasonably be considered presumptuous for a non-Laurel to go
                              around handing out tokens of appreciation to people.

                              Let's take an extreme case at the opposite end. People in general
                              are in the habit of carrying tokens around and giving them out at
                              random times to people they encounter doing cool things. In this
                              context, it would be hard to understand anyone viewing this as
                              presumptuous no matter who's doing it.

                              But most token-giving occasions are going to be far less clear-cut.
                              Suppose you have a local culture where the notion of token-giving
                              _originated_ in a Laurel Prize Tourney type of context, and people
                              are only just beginning to extend the practice to other contexts.
                              There are multiple ways in which the practice could be extended: it
                              could extend to non-Laurels giving tokens at a formal exhibition, it
                              could extend to Laurels giving tokens at other types of formal
                              occasion than the LPT, and it could extend in combinations and
                              further extensions of these.

                              There's also the difference between de jure and de facto impressions
                              of presumption. There are a very few actions that can create de jure
                              presumption (e.g., wearing inappropriate reserved regalia, attending
                              closed order meetings, etc.) But if you have a practice that has
                              arisen in a context strongly associated with a particular group, and
                              the practice has not yet been seen to have been generally extended
                              beyond that group, then it is not unnatural for someone adopting that
                              practice to be perceived as associating themselves in some fashion
                              with the group.

                              Now, if someone _intends_ to associate themselves with the group
                              "people encouraging artistic achievement by handing out tokens of
                              appreciation", but it happens that the _current_ set of "people
                              encouraging etc. etc." just happens to be a subset of "members of the
                              Order of the Laurel", then a certain degree of semiotic confusion is
                              understandable.

                              The ambiguity depends greatly on local culture (and even local
                              micro-culture), and it affects what aspects of the interaction need
                              to be addressed in what ways. If there _is_ a local culture that
                              "only members of an A&S order give tokens on the occasion of formal
                              A&S displays such as LPTs and Competitions", then being outraged that
                              someone has pointed out this cultural faux pas is a bit missing the
                              point. The optimal approach in that context would be to openly
                              change the cultural practices , perhaps by sponsoring A&S displays
                              with an overt invitation to all and sundry to give tokens.

                              Clearly the people who spoke to your apprentice sincerely _believe_
                              that there is a cultural practice being broken. If they are in error
                              and are attempting to enforce a tradition that doesn't actually exist
                              in your local culture, then they need to have the cultural
                              differences pointed out to them. But there's no reason to assume off
                              the top that they had no motivation other than officiousness and a
                              desire to be mean. Random invented example: If someone has come out
                              of an SCA local culture where private household dinners are The Thing
                              and considered an occasion of intimacy and formality, and they enter
                              a local culture where spontaneous self-invitations to the dinners of
                              acquaintances is a common occurrence, and suddenly someone they've
                              only met once before shows up in the middle of dinner, bringing a
                              bottle of wine and a chair ... well, if the host of the dinner
                              responds in a quelling manner, it isn't because they are stuffy,
                              stuck-up, officious, and rude. It's just a major clash of cultural
                              expectations. And while this sort of clash is more understandable
                              when dealing with expectations coming from geographically distinct
                              cultures, it's also very possible to have very different cultural
                              expectations within the same substantial local group.

                              I find it reasonably understandable that someone _might_ sincerely
                              believe that giving out tokens was an unofficial prerogative of
                              members of an A&S order. Certainly my awareness of the practice
                              stemmed directly from its use at LPTs at a time when it was
                              specifically expected that Laurels would be the ones giving them out.
                              So it's quite reasonable that there would be people who retain a
                              similar expectation.

                              Let me do another analogy. There's nothing at all in the official
                              SCA rules to say that J. Random Person can't spend an hour sitting in
                              state holding ceremonies in which they hand out medallions on
                              necklaces to people. Hey, if that's what they want to do, so what?
                              But it would also be perfectly reasonable for somebody to take such a
                              person aside and suggest that they were giving the impression of
                              pretending to be landed nobility, and that they might want to
                              reconsider the practice. Maybe the person giving the advice is an
                              officious busybody. But maybe they are sincerely trying to help the
                              person avoid embarrassment and misunderstanding.

                              I can't comment on the specific situation given above because I don't
                              know the context and the particulars. But I can certainl imagine
                              contexts and particulars that could both have arisen out of purely
                              noble motives _and_ could be interpreted by the experiencer as a
                              crusing and unwarranted put-down. Both are possible.

                              Tangwystyl
                              --
                              *****
                              Heather Rose Jones
                              hrjones@...
                              *****
                            • alizkye
                              Tangwystyl, thanks for the flip side observation on this topic. I was thinking some similar things when I first saw the original post. I know that in Caid
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                Tangwystyl,

                                thanks for the flip side observation on this topic. I was thinking
                                some similar things when I first saw the original post. I know that
                                in Caid the giving of tokens did start with Laurel Prize Tourneys and
                                only now seems to be moving towards a more general usage. At the
                                most recent Arts and Sciences Pentathlon (this past weekend) I
                                noticed tokens left for particularly fine pieces and I think it's the
                                first time I've ever seen this at Pentathlon.

                                regards,

                                aliskye

                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Heather Rose Jones
                                <hrjones@s...> wrote:
                                > At 2:30 AM -0500 4/2/03, Rosine wrote:
                                > > I just had a weekend visit with one of my protoges, who
                                related to me
                                > >something so odd that I actually felt an anger-burn in my chest
                                when she
                                > >told me about it.
                                > >
                                > > She's been chewed out, by two different people now, for
                                leaving a token
                                > >of appreciation at an A&S entry when she's admired the work or the
                                > >documentation. Why? "Because she's not a member of an A&S Order and
                                > >shouldn't act like she is one"! She was actually, actually told
                                that what
                                > >she was doing was presumptuous and rude! Her husband was sitting
                                beside her
                                > >and nodding his head in agreement as she recounted the statements
                                and asked
                                > >my advice (I didn't ask and she didn't volunteer, who'd said such
                                things to
                                > >her.)
                                > > Am I off here, or does that just strike you as the most
                                bizarre thing to
                                > >hear about in a "courteous" society? I ordered (my first order as
                                a Peer!)
                                > >her to tell anyone who ever says such a thing to her again "My
                                mistress
                                > >Rosine says that I am required to say: that is discourteous and
                                boorish.
                                > >Further, it serves no one as well as renders a diservice to our A&S
                                > >community. She asks that you contact her if you have any
                                complaints or
                                > >questions about her order to me." And then she is to walk, or
                                turn, away and
                                > >ignore the person.
                                > > It wasn't a nice thing to lay on my protegee, but it was the
                                best I could
                                > >think of at the moment that wasn't obscene in verbage.
                                > > Now that I've calmed down a bit - have you run across such an
                                attitude in
                                > >your Kingdom? One the whole, or just as a one or two person oddity?
                                >
                                > I know we're clearly expected to be outraged by this, but I'm going
                                > to offer a voice of moderation, because the social context for this
                                > sort of thing can be enormously variable. Let's take as an extreme
                                > example at one end a formal "Laurel Prize Tourney" event, that has
                                an
                                > explicit format of "non-Laurels exhibit work; Laurels examine,
                                > discuss, and give tokens". In that specific context then, yes, it
                                > _could_ reasonably be considered presumptuous for a non-Laurel to
                                go
                                > around handing out tokens of appreciation to people.
                                >
                                > Let's take an extreme case at the opposite end. People in general
                                > are in the habit of carrying tokens around and giving them out at
                                > random times to people they encounter doing cool things. In this
                                > context, it would be hard to understand anyone viewing this as
                                > presumptuous no matter who's doing it.
                                >
                                > But most token-giving occasions are going to be far less clear-cut.
                                > Suppose you have a local culture where the notion of token-giving
                                > _originated_ in a Laurel Prize Tourney type of context, and people
                                > are only just beginning to extend the practice to other contexts.
                                > There are multiple ways in which the practice could be extended: it
                                > could extend to non-Laurels giving tokens at a formal exhibition,
                                it
                                > could extend to Laurels giving tokens at other types of formal
                                > occasion than the LPT, and it could extend in combinations and
                                > further extensions of these.
                                >
                                > There's also the difference between de jure and de facto
                                impressions
                                > of presumption. There are a very few actions that can create de
                                jure
                                > presumption (e.g., wearing inappropriate reserved regalia,
                                attending
                                > closed order meetings, etc.) But if you have a practice that has
                                > arisen in a context strongly associated with a particular group,
                                and
                                > the practice has not yet been seen to have been generally extended
                                > beyond that group, then it is not unnatural for someone adopting
                                that
                                > practice to be perceived as associating themselves in some fashion
                                > with the group.
                                >
                                > Now, if someone _intends_ to associate themselves with the group
                                > "people encouraging artistic achievement by handing out tokens of
                                > appreciation", but it happens that the _current_ set of "people
                                > encouraging etc. etc." just happens to be a subset of "members of
                                the
                                > Order of the Laurel", then a certain degree of semiotic confusion
                                is
                                > understandable.
                                >
                                > The ambiguity depends greatly on local culture (and even local
                                > micro-culture), and it affects what aspects of the interaction need
                                > to be addressed in what ways. If there _is_ a local culture that
                                > "only members of an A&S order give tokens on the occasion of formal
                                > A&S displays such as LPTs and Competitions", then being outraged
                                that
                                > someone has pointed out this cultural faux pas is a bit missing the
                                > point. The optimal approach in that context would be to openly
                                > change the cultural practices , perhaps by sponsoring A&S displays
                                > with an overt invitation to all and sundry to give tokens.
                                >
                                > Clearly the people who spoke to your apprentice sincerely _believe_
                                > that there is a cultural practice being broken. If they are in
                                error
                                > and are attempting to enforce a tradition that doesn't actually
                                exist
                                > in your local culture, then they need to have the cultural
                                > differences pointed out to them. But there's no reason to assume
                                off
                                > the top that they had no motivation other than officiousness and a
                                > desire to be mean. Random invented example: If someone has come
                                out
                                > of an SCA local culture where private household dinners are The
                                Thing
                                > and considered an occasion of intimacy and formality, and they
                                enter
                                > a local culture where spontaneous self-invitations to the dinners
                                of
                                > acquaintances is a common occurrence, and suddenly someone they've
                                > only met once before shows up in the middle of dinner, bringing a
                                > bottle of wine and a chair ... well, if the host of the dinner
                                > responds in a quelling manner, it isn't because they are stuffy,
                                > stuck-up, officious, and rude. It's just a major clash of cultural
                                > expectations. And while this sort of clash is more understandable
                                > when dealing with expectations coming from geographically distinct
                                > cultures, it's also very possible to have very different cultural
                                > expectations within the same substantial local group.
                                >
                                > I find it reasonably understandable that someone _might_ sincerely
                                > believe that giving out tokens was an unofficial prerogative of
                                > members of an A&S order. Certainly my awareness of the practice
                                > stemmed directly from its use at LPTs at a time when it was
                                > specifically expected that Laurels would be the ones giving them
                                out.
                                > So it's quite reasonable that there would be people who retain a
                                > similar expectation.
                                >
                                > Let me do another analogy. There's nothing at all in the official
                                > SCA rules to say that J. Random Person can't spend an hour sitting
                                in
                                > state holding ceremonies in which they hand out medallions on
                                > necklaces to people. Hey, if that's what they want to do, so what?
                                > But it would also be perfectly reasonable for somebody to take such
                                a
                                > person aside and suggest that they were giving the impression of
                                > pretending to be landed nobility, and that they might want to
                                > reconsider the practice. Maybe the person giving the advice is an
                                > officious busybody. But maybe they are sincerely trying to help
                                the
                                > person avoid embarrassment and misunderstanding.
                                >
                                > I can't comment on the specific situation given above because I
                                don't
                                > know the context and the particulars. But I can certainl imagine
                                > contexts and particulars that could both have arisen out of purely
                                > noble motives _and_ could be interpreted by the experiencer as a
                                > crusing and unwarranted put-down. Both are possible.
                                >
                                > Tangwystyl
                                > --
                                > *****
                                > Heather Rose Jones
                                > hrjones@s...
                                > *****
                              • Ii Saburou
                                ... This is not something against you, Marcele, but this phrase. I hear some variant of the phrase I m not a peer so I really don t know... I realize that
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                  On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, demontsegur wrote:

                                  > protege and have a quiet talk with that person in private. I'm not a
                                  > peer, so I'm not offering this suggestion up as though I really know

                                  This is not something against you, Marcele, but this phrase. I hear some
                                  variant of the phrase "I'm not a peer so I really don't know..." I
                                  realize that us non-peers don't know what it is like to be a peer, but
                                  that doesn't mean that we don't know about basic interactions.

                                  Rudeness is rudeness, and I don't have to be a peer to know that chewing
                                  someone out for appreciating another person is rude. Likewise, you don't
                                  have to be a peer to know about subject X.

                                  Okay, so I can't comment much on the Laurel process, or what goes on at
                                  Laurel meetings. I can read Corpora and I can understand the basic rules
                                  of the SCA. I respect peers and what they have accomplished, but I take
                                  umbrage at the concept that myself and other non-peers don't have enough
                                  insight into basic human interaction to understand what is and is not out
                                  of place.

                                  I hope that this isn't taken in the wrong light--I'm not attacking peers
                                  nor am I attacking individuals; just this concept that some people have
                                  that non-peers have to qualify statements like the ones being made here.
                                  Marcele, I think your comments are well put and I don't think you need to
                                  apologise for your lack of peerage beforehand. We should have our words
                                  taken on their merits, not our rank. Rank can lend weight to a person's
                                  argument, but absence of rank should not detract from it.

                                  -Ii
                                • wodeford
                                  ... I like the random approach described above. Nothing says, I appreciate what you did, like doing it in person. Also at that point, it s between the giver
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Heather Rose Jones
                                    <hrjones@s...> wrote:
                                    > Let's take an extreme case at the opposite end. People in general
                                    > are in the habit of carrying tokens around and giving them out at
                                    > random times to people they encounter doing cool things. In this
                                    > context, it would be hard to understand anyone viewing this as
                                    > presumptuous no matter who's doing it.

                                    I like the random approach described above. Nothing says, "I
                                    appreciate what you did," like doing it in person. Also at that
                                    point, it's between the giver and the receiver and nobody else's
                                    business.

                                    BTW, I received my order from Eloxite and the carnelian rings are
                                    quite nice. http://www.creditcardcastle.com/cgi-bin/products.cgi
                                    (Click on "Rings, Gemstone.) They do beads and jewelry findings as
                                    well, if anyone is into that sort of thing.

                                    Jehanne
                                  • wodeford
                                    ... Ii-dono, you re my hero! Jehanne
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ii Saburou <logan@m...> wrote:
                                      > Marcele, I think your comments are well put and I don't think you
                                      > need to apologise for your lack of peerage beforehand. We should
                                      > have our words taken on their merits, not our rank.

                                      Ii-dono, you're my hero!

                                      Jehanne
                                    • hasoferet@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 4/1/2003 11:28:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Let me see if I understand this. This lady has been going to see the A&S entries in events,
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                        In a message dated 4/1/2003 11:28:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, Rosine@... writes:


                                           Am I off here, or does that just strike you as the most bizarre thing to
                                        hear about in a "courteous" society? I ordered (my first order as a Peer!)
                                        her to tell anyone who ever says such a thing to her again "My mistress
                                        Rosine says that I am required to say: that is discourteous and boorish.
                                        Further, it serves no one as well as renders a diservice to our A&S
                                        community. She asks that you contact her if you have any complaints or
                                        questions about her order to me." And then she is to walk, or turn, away and
                                        ignore the person.


                                        Let me see if I understand this. This lady has been going to see the A&S entries in events, and leaving, I dunno, a flower or something for the makers of things that please or interest her, and people have been telling her this is a bad thing to do?

                                        Oy. All I can say is, I must stock up on some roses next time I go to an event with A&S.

                                        Raquel
                                      • hasoferet@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 4/2/2003 7:52:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, ... I m having a terrible image of what might be inappropriate to leave for an artisan. A plastic
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                          In a message dated 4/2/2003 7:52:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, karen_larsdatter@... writes:


                                          COMPLAINER: Hey!  Did you know that I caught *your* protege, Lady A.,
                                          leaving a token for an artisan?

                                          ME: So?  Was it something inappropriate?


                                          I'm having a terrible image of what might be inappropriate to leave for an artisan. A plastic troll doll? A hotel key?

                                          Raquel
                                        • demontsegur
                                          ... need to ... Thank you Ii, for your kind words. I phrase things like that as a matter of courtesy for all involved. It s often easier to add in disclaimers
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Apr 3, 2003
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                                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ii Saburou <logan@m...> wrote:
                                            > On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, demontsegur wrote:
                                            > Marcele, I think your comments are well put and I don't think you
                                            need to
                                            > apologise for your lack of peerage beforehand.

                                            Thank you Ii, for your kind words. I phrase things like that as a
                                            matter of courtesy for all involved. It's often easier to add in
                                            disclaimers that negate presumption on my part (especially when
                                            writing), than it is to just steam ahead and risk someone taking
                                            umbrage. I am sure Rosine would not have been offended, but offense
                                            has been had by other people over smaller things in my past, so I try
                                            to err on the side of covering bases. Really, it's a small social
                                            exercise in politeness on my part, not a sign of groveling insecurity
                                            in the face of almighty peerage. :^)

                                            Cheerio,
                                            Marcele
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