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  • Sarah Michele Ford
    Marcele, do you have something you d like to share with the class, or are you going to make me do it? :^D Alianor the troublemaker Sarah Michele Ford
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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      Marcele, do you have something you'd like to share with the class, or are
      you going to make me do it? :^D

      Alianor the troublemaker

      Sarah Michele Ford
      /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
      Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
      reality is but an exception.
      --Jean Baudrillard
      \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
    • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
      ... What d she do?!?!?!? What d she do?!?!?!? What did she DO?!?!?!??! Smiles Despina de la wondering ... The coward believes he will live forever If he holds
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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        At 11:39 AM 3/31/2003 -0600, you wrote:
        Marcele, do you have something you'd like to share with the class, or are
        you going to make me do it?  :^D

        Alianor the troublemaker

        What'd she do?!?!?!?  What'd she do?!?!?!? What did she DO?!?!?!??!

        Smiles
        Despina de la wondering


        The coward believes he will live forever
        If he holds back in the battle,
        But in old age he shall have no peace
        Though spears have spared his limbs

      • Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albiz
        Tattle! Tattle! We wanna know! Apollonia Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albizzi Kingdom of Atlantia www.livejournal.com/users/apollonia **La vita
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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          Tattle!  Tattle!  We wanna know!
           
          Apollonia
           

          Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albizzi
          Kingdom of Atlantia
          www.livejournal.com/users/apollonia

          **La vita senz'onore e un viver morto.**

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Sarah Michele Ford [mailto:sarah@...]
          Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 12:39 PM
          To: authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Authentic_SCA] (unknown)

          Marcele, do you have something you'd like to share with the class, or are
          you going to make me do it?  :^D

          Alianor the troublemaker

          Sarah Michele Ford
          /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
          Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
          reality is but an exception.
          --Jean Baudrillard
          \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
        • demontsegur
          You guys... ... Okay, if you INSIST, Alianor ... I did pretty well at Northern Lights A&S pentathlon this weekend
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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            You guys... <BLUSH>...

            Okay, if you INSIST, Alianor <innocent eye roll toward the heavens>...

            I did pretty well at Northern Lights A&S pentathlon this weekend in
            the East Kingdom. I won three categories -- Research paper (for my
            paper on the fitted gown styles of the late 14th and early 15th
            century as portrayed in art of the time), Accessories, and
            Embroidery. The last two were for the same item, a drawstring purse
            with tassels and an embroidered 'scene' on each side. One side
            had "the God of Love, unlocking the lover's heart" and the other side
            had "Coitus, nature's smithy" -- a scene of two lovers in bed
            together. Yes, yes, rather naughty... "medieval p*rn" even.. but
            everything below the waist was decorously under the bedcovers! I took
            inspiration from two manuscript illuminations illustrating _La Roman
            de la Rose_, c. 1380. I found them in Michael Camille's _The Medieval
            Art of Love_ -- a great source for lots of artistic objects depicting
            secular scenes of romance/erotica.

            Apparently, my scores were high enough to warrant a second place
            finish overall. The lady who won the entire pent truly deserved it,
            though, as she'd entered 12 separate categories with 12 separate
            items, all of them of high quality. Her name is Oksana Goncharova, I
            believe.

            To be honest, I probably won't be doing this sort of effort for a
            pent again. I wanted the experience once to know what it was like to
            focus that hard and to reach a hard deadline with so much output. I'm
            completely thrilled and satisfied with my results, so 'my work here
            is done'... Now, on to creating that website... :^)

            Thanks for your interest, list-siblings! I'll try to post a couple of
            pictures of this infamous purse sometime soon... just as soon as I
            get interent access at home going again. :^)

            -Marcele

            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil"
            <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
            > At 11:39 AM 3/31/2003 -0600, you wrote:
            > >Marcele, do you have something you'd like to share with the class,
            or are
            > >you going to make me do it? :^D
            > >
            > >Alianor the troublemaker
            >
            > What'd she do?!?!?!? What'd she do?!?!?!? What did she DO?!?!?!??!
            >
            > Smiles
            > Despina de la wondering
          • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
            Congratulations on a job well done from the sounds of it! Smiles, Despina
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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              Congratulations on a job well done from the sounds of it!

              Smiles,
              Despina
            • Carolin
              Well, congratulations then!! :) And I wanna see pictures of the purse! Sounds pretty cool to me :). Carolin ... ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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                Well, congratulations then!! :) And I wanna see pictures of the
                purse! Sounds pretty cool to me :).

                Carolin

                >You guys... <BLUSH>...
                >
                >Okay, if you INSIST, Alianor <innocent eye roll toward the heavens>...
                >
                >I did pretty well at Northern Lights A&S pentathlon this weekend in
                >the East Kingdom. I won three categories -- Research paper (for my
                >paper on the fitted gown styles of the late 14th and early 15th
                >century as portrayed in art of the time), Accessories, and
                >Embroidery. The last two were for the same item, a drawstring purse
                >with tassels and an embroidered 'scene' on each side. One side
                >had "the God of Love, unlocking the lover's heart" and the other side
                >had "Coitus, nature's smithy" -- a scene of two lovers in bed
                >together. Yes, yes, rather naughty... "medieval p*rn" even.. but
                >everything below the waist was decorously under the bedcovers! I took
                >inspiration from two manuscript illuminations illustrating _La Roman
                >de la Rose_, c. 1380. I found them in Michael Camille's _The Medieval
                >Art of Love_ -- a great source for lots of artistic objects depicting
                >secular scenes of romance/erotica.
                >
                >Apparently, my scores were high enough to warrant a second place
                >finish overall. The lady who won the entire pent truly deserved it,
                >though, as she'd entered 12 separate categories with 12 separate
                >items, all of them of high quality. Her name is Oksana Goncharova, I
                >believe.
                >
                >To be honest, I probably won't be doing this sort of effort for a
                >pent again. I wanted the experience once to know what it was like to
                >focus that hard and to reach a hard deadline with so much output. I'm
                >completely thrilled and satisfied with my results, so 'my work here
                >is done'... Now, on to creating that website... :^)
                >
                >Thanks for your interest, list-siblings! I'll try to post a couple of
                >pictures of this infamous purse sometime soon... just as soon as I
                >get interent access at home going again. :^)
                >
                >-Marcele


                ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
                ~*~ Carolin vom Adlersberg ~*~
                ~*~ Kingdom of Atlantia http://www.adlersberg.net ~*~

                [...] Fride unde reht sint sêre wunt.
                diu driu enhabent geleites niht, diu zwei enwerden ê gesunt.
                Walter von der Vogelweide
              • Sarah Michele Ford
                ... Pish. Pretty well. She kicked serious butt. Oh wait, I said I was gonna stop saying I told you so didn t I? :^) I had a fabulous time at the event
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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                  On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, demontsegur wrote:

                  > I did pretty well at Northern Lights A&S pentathlon this weekend in
                  > the East Kingdom.

                  Pish. Pretty well. She kicked serious butt. Oh wait, I said I was gonna
                  stop saying "I told you so" didn't I? :^)

                  I had a fabulous time at the event even though I wasn't anywhere near as
                  victorious as Marcele - I won Costuming 1000-1300 with the Edith outfit.
                  And I had my first judging experience, which was well worth it (I can't
                  wait to do more - so that I can give to others what I go into A&S comps
                  looking for - feedback! suggestions!). I had the privilege of working
                  with two more experienced judges in my category, but was also able to feel
                  useful because as a fencer & rapier marshall I was able to answer some of
                  the questions they had about adapting "normal" clothes so that they
                  conform to armor standards. And I wrote a novel's worth of comments, just
                  about. :^)

                  Alianor

                  Sarah Michele Ford
                  /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
                  Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
                  reality is but an exception.
                  --Jean Baudrillard
                  \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
                • demontsegur
                  ... Alianor, please forgive me for neglecting to mention this! It was an impressive gown and certainly not something one sees a lot in the SCA. -Marcele
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Michele Ford <sarah@s...>
                    wrote:
                    > I won Costuming 1000-1300 with the Edith outfit.

                    Alianor, please forgive me for neglecting to mention this! It was an
                    impressive gown and certainly not something one sees a lot in the
                    SCA.

                    -Marcele
                  • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                    ... Well then, you deserve a large congratualtions as well, Alianor! Way to go! Smiles, Despina
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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                      I had a fabulous time at the event even though I wasn't anywhere near as
                      victorious as Marcele - I won Costuming 1000-1300 with the Edith outfit.

                      Well then, you deserve a large congratualtions as well, Alianor!  Way to go!

                      Smiles,
                      Despina
                    • Sarah Michele Ford
                      ... Pish again - you don t have to remember what I do! Thank you, though. I m curious what you think is not something one sees a lot ? Early period stuff?
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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                        On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, demontsegur wrote:

                        > Alianor, please forgive me for neglecting to mention this! It was an
                        > impressive gown and certainly not something one sees a lot in the
                        > SCA.

                        Pish again - you don't have to remember what I do! Thank you, though.
                        I'm curious what you think is "not something one sees a lot"? Early
                        period stuff? Garments based on illustrations?

                        Alianor

                        Sarah Michele Ford
                        /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
                        Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
                        reality is but an exception.
                        --Jean Baudrillard
                        \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
                      • demontsegur
                        ... I guess what I meant was that it is unique in a large field of generi- tunics and modern-patterned cotehardies (not at this competition, specifically --
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Michele Ford <sarah@s...>
                          wrote:
                          > I'm curious what you think is "not something one sees a lot"? Early
                          > period stuff? Garments based on illustrations?

                          I guess what I meant was that it is unique in a large field of generi-
                          tunics and modern-patterned 'cotehardies' (not at this competition,
                          specifically -- just generally in the SCA). For those who haven't
                          seen it yet, the gown is a periwinkle blue with some lovely, thin
                          tablet-woven trim sewn across it in horizontal bands from top to
                          bottom. Definitely the kind of dress that I can see Alianor wearing
                          and being stopped and questioned about... and consequently spreading
                          the Auth Virus. Or.. should we call it S.A.R.S -- "Serious
                          Authenticity/Research Syndrome"... :^P

                          -Marcele
                        • Talia
                          So what is the majority consensus on what most people call the cotehardie ...is 4-panel more authentically accurate, or one with more? T.
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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                            So what is the majority consensus on what most people call the "cotehardie"...is 4-panel more authentically accurate, or one with more?
                             
                            T.
                             
                          • demontsegur
                            ... more? Hi Talia, I think that s one heck of a good question and one that is very, very hard to answer with the data presently available. Within the SCA, one
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Talia" <khanson@k...> wrote:
                              > So what is the majority consensus on what most people call the
                              > "cotehardie"...is 4-panel more authentically accurate, or one with
                              more?

                              Hi Talia,

                              I think that's one heck of a good question and one that is very, very
                              hard to answer with the data presently available. Within the SCA, one
                              accepted definition is a fitted gown worn in a time period ranging
                              between 1340-1420 (or so) serving as the outermost fashion layer (for
                              men and women). The word has been plucked from the pages of period
                              texts that cover the topic of clothing, but has been much 'abused' by
                              various historic costume writers. By abused, I mean applied almost
                              indiscriminately to a wide variety of clothing styles. I'm recalling
                              Millia Davenport's description of sideless surcotes worn by a couple
                              of princesses as "cotehardies", for example.

                              I'm most comfortable thinking in terms of dress layers, rather than
                              costuming terms. I'd rather be descriptive and say "under-gown"
                              or "outer-gown" or "versatile gown" or "restricted top layer". I'm a
                              word-geek though, so I thrive with such classifications... YMMV.

                              As for construction methods, I don't believe the number of panels is
                              what determines a dress's qualification as a 'cotehardie' so much as
                              the gown's _dress elements_. The various cutting methods used in
                              Greenland, for instance, are fascinating in and of themselves, but I
                              wouldn't think of those gowns first as what most people call
                              a "cotehardie". They are mostly pullovers, IIRC, and not meant to be
                              fashionably tight through the chest and waist. That "tightness"
                              factor is one of the dress elements I am talking about. Use of lacing
                              and buttons are two more dress elements. Sleeve style is another.

                              I'm partial to the 4-panel construction method myself, and can
                              achieve bust support with it, as long as I lace up the front. I'd use
                              such a gown (a laced gown) as a foundation layer, over which a more
                              fancy gown perhaps with short sleeves and decorative flaps (tippets
                              or 'pendant' sleeves, to borrow a term from Robin Netherton) can go.
                              That top layer doesn't even need to have buttons or lacing, if you do
                              a proper job creating bust support with the bottom layer. The period
                              art bears much of this out -- women show up quite often in two
                              distinct gown layers (not counting the chemise), and those gowns
                              often have two distinctly different set of dress elements combined in
                              such a way that allows maximum comfort and display of fashionable
                              areas (imagine the short sleeve over the long sleeve as an example).

                              If you go looking hard enough at pictorial evidence, you will find
                              that what most people in the SCA visualize when they
                              think "cotehardie" is not what actually shows up in the art -- at
                              least not often enough to explain its prevalance as a gown style in
                              the SCA. The whole "buttons on long sleeves combined with buttons
                              down the center front" gown that looks so lovely on ladies is a rare
                              bird indeed, if we trust the art. It's not as simple as taking a male
                              style (which does often have buttons in both places on the same
                              garment) and extending it to the floor... Women were apparently
                              wearing other styles, and those other styles deserve some
                              exploration. :^)

                              I've written a paper on this recently and hope to have it up on the
                              web soon, on my own site.

                              Thanks for the soapbox opportunity,
                              Marcele
                            • Clare von Calw
                              Oooooh..it sounds lovely.. I want to see it! If there is a link to a pic of it, do you have a moment to share it? One of the things I love about the SCA is the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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                                Oooooh..it sounds lovely.. I want to see it! If there is a link to a
                                pic of it, do you have a moment to share it?

                                One of the things I love about the SCA is the romance in the imagery.



                                > I guess what I meant was that it is unique in a large field of
                                generi-
                                > tunics and modern-patterned 'cotehardies' (not at this competition,
                                > specifically -- just generally in the SCA). For those who haven't
                                > seen it yet, the gown is a periwinkle blue with some lovely, thin
                                > tablet-woven trim sewn across it in horizontal bands from top to
                                > bottom. Definitely the kind of dress that I can see Alianor wearing
                                > and being stopped and questioned about...
                              • Carolin
                                ... Marcele, please, please, please do it soon :) I am planning quite a bit of garb for Pennsic (mostly kirtles and cotehardies) and I would love to read your
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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                                  >
                                  >I've written a paper on this recently and hope to have it up on the
                                  >web soon, on my own site.
                                  >

                                  Marcele,


                                  please, please, please do it soon :) I am planning quite a bit of
                                  garb for Pennsic (mostly kirtles and cotehardies) and I would love to
                                  read your paper before actually making all the common SCA mistakes...
                                  ;)

                                  Right now I am working on a early 14th century dress with quite a bit
                                  of embroidery on the sleeves (not that period... mainly to give my
                                  embroidery some display space ;))... but once that is done, my
                                  heraldic cotehardie et al. are waiting to be finished...

                                  Thanks
                                  Carolin

                                  (Take this as a friendly amount of peer pressure ;) - I guess we will
                                  all do that whenever you mention your paper. )


                                  ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
                                  ~*~ Carolin vom Adlersberg ~*~
                                  ~*~ Kingdom of Atlantia http://www.adlersberg.net ~*~

                                  [...] Fride unde reht sint sêre wunt.
                                  diu driu enhabent geleites niht, diu zwei enwerden ê gesunt.
                                  Walter von der Vogelweide
                                • demontsegur
                                  ... It s at the top of my list now that the pentathlon is over. I promise: soon! I even heard that Verizon may restore our DSL service at home by Thursday...
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 31, 2003
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                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Carolin <carolin@a...> wrote:
                                    > please, please, please do it soon :)

                                    It's at the top of my list now that the pentathlon is over. I
                                    promise: soon! I even heard that Verizon may restore our DSL service
                                    at home by Thursday... <sigh>... We got 'slammed' through some
                                    bizarre turn of events involving Earthlink, Covad, and Verizon (three
                                    DSL service providers). Buyer beware: you can pay your bills and have
                                    legitimate service and STILL find yourself without service and
                                    without recourse for the disruption for no good reason. And it can
                                    last for weeks.

                                    > I am planning quite a bit of
                                    > garb for Pennsic (mostly kirtles and cotehardies) and I would love
                                    to
                                    > read your paper before actually making all the common SCA
                                    mistakes...

                                    I'm so pleased you care! I'm hoping that this takes two weeks at the
                                    latest to get up and available for anyone to download who wants to
                                    see it.

                                    > (Take this as a friendly amount of peer pressure ;) - I guess we
                                    will
                                    > all do that whenever you mention your paper. )

                                    I am to blame for mentioning it again and again and then
                                    saying, "oops, but you can't see it yet!" Hardly fair! ;^)

                                    -Marcele
                                  • sismith42
                                    ... Heh, Marcele, the paper-tease! I guess this is one way of getting us to do our own (insert your choice of explicative here) research ;-) Stefania
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                      > I am to blame for mentioning it again and again and then
                                      > saying, "oops, but you can't see it yet!" Hardly fair! ;^)

                                      Heh, Marcele, the paper-tease! I guess this is one way of getting us
                                      to do our own (insert your choice of explicative here) research ;-)

                                      Stefania
                                    • Sarah Michele Ford
                                      ... Ha! I love it. This outfit is evidence for the soapbox I inherited from Kass: even the simplest garment can look great with the right cut and the right
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                        On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, demontsegur wrote:

                                        > I guess what I meant was that it is unique in a large field of generi-
                                        > tunics and modern-patterned 'cotehardies' (not at this competition,
                                        > specifically -- just generally in the SCA). For those who haven't
                                        > seen it yet, the gown is a periwinkle blue with some lovely, thin
                                        > tablet-woven trim sewn across it in horizontal bands from top to
                                        > bottom. Definitely the kind of dress that I can see Alianor wearing
                                        > and being stopped and questioned about... and consequently spreading
                                        > the Auth Virus. Or.. should we call it S.A.R.S -- "Serious
                                        > Authenticity/Research Syndrome"... :^P

                                        Ha! I love it. This outfit is evidence for the soapbox I inherited from
                                        Kass: even the simplest garment can look great with the right cut and the
                                        right fabric and attention to detail.

                                        There's a quick webpage about it at
                                        http://www.snowplow.org/sarah/Edith.html. It's actually a complete
                                        outfit: smock (linen), underdress (fustian), and gown (wool twill), with
                                        veil (linen - someday to be replaced with silk), hosen (white linen), and
                                        garters (same wool as the gown). Everything's handsewn, though with
                                        commercial cotton and cotton/poly thread (soon... soon I will buy 3,000
                                        yards of white linen from webs and never sew medieval clothes with
                                        cotton/poly again). All of the body garments are of the side-gore
                                        variety; one in each side of the smock (which is mid-calf length) and two
                                        each in the underdress and gown. (Incidentally, I do wear the red fustian
                                        dress solo quite a lot - it was one of my items in the Pennsic A&S display
                                        last year.) The gores on the underdress start at the waist; the goes on
                                        the gown start at the bottom of the gusset (I don't recommend this -
                                        gussets and gore points don't mesh well - next time I do a tunic this way
                                        I'm going to have at least SOME side seam). I decided to put the long
                                        gores in this gown because, looking at the illustration I was working
                                        from, there are clear folds (i.e., fullness) from the shoulders - and to
                                        me, the best way to get that fullness was by starting to increase the
                                        circumference of the garment as soon as possible.

                                        The trim is double-faced tabletweaving, made from wool. If I were doing
                                        it again, I'd use a finer thread for the trim - both to more faithfully
                                        reproduce what's in the illustration and because these bands are
                                        moderately thick - so they stand out from the garment and sometimes make
                                        it drape oddly.

                                        So that's my story. Sometime when I don't have 50 essay exams to grade by
                                        Friday and a PhD qualifying paper to write and a dissertation proposal
                                        to work on, I'll get my documentation and everything online. :^)

                                        Alianor de R

                                        Sarah Michele Ford
                                        /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
                                        Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
                                        reality is but an exception.
                                        --Jean Baudrillard
                                        \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
                                      • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                                        ... Beautifully done! I like the colors on you. Smiles, Despina
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                          At 08:20 AM 4/1/2003 -0600, you wrote:
                                          There's a quick webpage about it at
                                          http://www.snowplow.org/sarah/Edith.html.  It's actually a complete
                                          outfit: smock (linen), underdress (fustian), and gown (wool twill), with
                                          veil (linen - someday to be replaced with silk), hosen (white linen), and
                                          garters (same wool as the gown).

                                          Beautifully done!  I like the colors on you.

                                          Smiles,
                                          Despina
                                        • kris
                                          ... The gown looks amazing! For me, since I am a pear shape, I usually start the side gores 1-2 inches below the armpit gussets. That gives me enough room to
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                            At 08:20 AM 01/04/2003 -0600, you wrote:
                                            >There's a quick webpage about it at
                                            >http://www.snowplow.org/sarah/Edith.html. It's actually a complete
                                            >outfit: smock (linen), underdress (fustian), and gown (wool twill), with
                                            >veil (linen - someday to be replaced with silk), hosen (white linen), and
                                            >garters (same wool as the gown). Everything's handsewn, though with
                                            >commercial cotton and cotton/poly thread (soon... soon I will buy 3,000
                                            >yards of white linen from webs and never sew medieval clothes with
                                            >cotton/poly again). All of the body garments are of the side-gore
                                            >variety; one in each side of the smock (which is mid-calf length) and two
                                            >each in the underdress and gown. (Incidentally, I do wear the red fustian
                                            >dress solo quite a lot - it was one of my items in the Pennsic A&S display
                                            >last year.) The gores on the underdress start at the waist; the goes on
                                            >the gown start at the bottom of the gusset (I don't recommend this -
                                            >gussets and gore points don't mesh well - next time I do a tunic this way
                                            >I'm going to have at least SOME side seam). I decided to put the long
                                            >gores in this gown because, looking at the illustration I was working
                                            >from, there are clear folds (i.e., fullness) from the shoulders - and to
                                            >me, the best way to get that fullness was by starting to increase the
                                            >circumference of the garment as soon as possible.

                                            The gown looks amazing!

                                            For me, since I am a pear shape, I usually start the side gores 1-2 inches
                                            below the armpit gussets. That gives me enough room to get the points
                                            looking good. Doing this, I can also get an overgown out of 2.5 metres of
                                            60" wide fabric.. it's not terribly full, but there's still room at the hips.

                                            I should really take pictures of some of my earlier period clothes. They're
                                            so comfy and warm!

                                            kris

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