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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: sumptuary laws

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  • Steven Proctor
    Well, yes and no. The *style* of the cap isn t necessarily reserved. It s specifically the red cap with the ermine lining that s reserved... Ta Adhemar ...
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 28, 2003
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      Well, yes and no. The *style* of the cap isn't necessarily reserved.
      It's specifically the red cap with the ermine lining that's reserved...

      Ta

      Adhemar



      Paquerette wrote:

      > Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com wrote:
      >
      > > Society wide protected regalia (listed in the Ordinary, not
      > Corpora):
      > >
      > > (Fieldless) A chapeau. (For the Order of the Pelican)
      >
      > I think this only counts as an heraldic charge, not as an actual
      > chapeau. If a chapeau is what I think it is (a brimmed cap that sort
      > of
      > comes to a point at the back?), I see an awful lot of non-Pelican 14th
      >
      > century guys wearing these around.
      >
      > Ennoguent.
      > --
      >
      > I have not lost my mind. It's backed up on the server.
      > (and the network is down again)
      >
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    • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
      ... ALL of those things I listed are listed on the Ordinary, not in law. The charges are all that is SCA wide protected by Sumptuary Laws. However, your
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 28, 2003
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        At 01:22 PM 3/28/2003 -0500, you wrote:
        >I think this only counts as an heraldic charge, not as an actual
        >chapeau. If a chapeau is what I think it is (a brimmed cap that sort of
        >comes to a point at the back?), I see an awful lot of non-Pelican 14th
        >century guys wearing these around.

        ALL of those things I listed are listed on the Ordinary, not in law. The
        charges are all that is SCA wide protected by Sumptuary Laws. However,
        your kingdom may treat the actual objects as protected by sumptuary
        law. You'll have to check your kingdom.

        Smiles
        Despina
      • Paquerette
        ... I think this only counts as an heraldic charge, not as an actual chapeau. If a chapeau is what I think it is (a brimmed cap that sort of comes to a point
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 28, 2003
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          Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com wrote:

          > Society wide protected regalia (listed in the Ordinary, not Corpora):
          >
          > (Fieldless) A chapeau. (For the Order of the Pelican)

          I think this only counts as an heraldic charge, not as an actual
          chapeau. If a chapeau is what I think it is (a brimmed cap that sort of
          comes to a point at the back?), I see an awful lot of non-Pelican 14th
          century guys wearing these around.

          Ennoguent.
          --

          I have not lost my mind. It's backed up on the server.
          (and the network is down again)
        • Heather Rose Jones
          ... It s a subject with a bit of a complicated history. When the reserved items were first placed in the Ordinary (a long time ago) the clear _intent_ was to
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 28, 2003
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            At 12:13 PM -0600 3/28/03, Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil wrote:
            >At 01:22 PM 3/28/2003 -0500, you wrote:
            >>I think this only counts as an heraldic charge, not as an actual
            >>chapeau. If a chapeau is what I think it is (a brimmed cap that sort of
            >>comes to a point at the back?), I see an awful lot of non-Pelican 14th
            >>century guys wearing these around.
            >
            >ALL of those things I listed are listed on the Ordinary, not in law. The
            >charges are all that is SCA wide protected by Sumptuary Laws. However,
            >your kingdom may treat the actual objects as protected by sumptuary
            >law. You'll have to check your kingdom.

            It's a subject with a bit of a complicated history. When the
            reserved items were first placed in the Ordinary (a long time ago)
            the clear _intent_ was to restrict usage of the physical objects.
            But over the years, a number of cases emerged regarding other
            registrations that established clear precedents that registration in
            the Ordinary only covers the _image_ (and specifically, the image
            used in the context of an armorial-type display). These precedents
            led to people challenging the concept that the regalia registrations
            could actually be understood as restricting use of the objects.
            (Well, it actually led to people challenging the idea that the
            _intent_ had been to restrict the objects -- which was a bit absurd,
            in my opinion -- but the effect was a reconsideration of the "legal"
            status that registration created.) This situation was then rectified
            by a separate regalia-specific ruling by the Laurel Sovreign of Arms
            restricting the objects themselves. So the legal loophole _has_ been
            closed on a corporate level, not just on the level of individual
            kingdoms, although this hasn't necessarily disseminated into popular
            knowledge.

            Tangwystyl
            --
            *****
            Heather Rose Jones
            hrjones@...
            *****
          • azilisarmor
            Could someone tell me if there are, indeed, sumptuary laws in the East Kingdom aside from the matter who can wear crowns? If so, where might I find them?
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 3 8:32 PM
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              Could someone tell me if there are, indeed, sumptuary laws in the
              East Kingdom aside from the matter who can wear crowns? If so,
              where might I find them?
              Thanks
              Deroch
            • Greg Lindahl
              ... This is an *excellent* example of a query that would be better posed on a mailing list such as the East Kingdom list, or by perusing the East Kingdom
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 3 8:36 PM
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                > Could someone tell me if there are, indeed, sumptuary laws in the
                > East Kingdom aside from the matter who can wear crowns? If so,
                > where might I find them?

                This is an *excellent* example of a query that would be better posed
                on a mailing list such as the East Kingdom list, or by perusing the
                East Kingdom mailing website (where you will probably find a copy of
                Kingdom law), instead of asking a Society-wide mailing list dedicated
                to the topic of Authenticity...

                -- Gregory
              • Wendy
                ... We don t have any that go beyond the Society-wide restrictions. The East Kingdom does not have any sumptuary laws, or laws governing what regalia or
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 4 10:30 AM
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Deroch <alsnchap@t...> wrote:
                  > Could someone tell me if there are, indeed, sumptuary laws in the
                  > East Kingdom aside from the matter who can wear crowns? If so,
                  > where might I find them?

                  We don't have any that go beyond the Society-wide restrictions.

                  "The East Kingdom does not have any sumptuary laws, or laws governing
                  what regalia or garments may be worn by various members of the
                  populace, beyond those found in the Society's governing documents.
                  Regalia that is reserved across the Known World, such as Ducal
                  coronets, or knights' belts, is still reserved in the East, but the
                  Kingdom does not have any rules of its own. The badges of the
                  various orders should only be worn by the members thereof,
                  obviously." - Mistress Caitlin Davies, East Kingdom Order of
                  Precedence FAQ

                  We do have some degree of the belt-color tradition that seems to be
                  creeping in all over the place, but most of the time people are
                  capable of being reasonable about it -- unless the belt color in
                  question is red or white, either one of which is almost guaranteed to
                  get you snarky questions.

                  -Sabine
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