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question on name composition, 'de'

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  • Elizabeth
    Greetings, I am curious about the use of de in name composition. Does it mean of ? Take Edward de Vere, 17th earl of Oxford, for example. your servant,
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 27, 2003
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      Greetings,

      I am curious about the use of 'de' in name
      composition. Does it mean 'of'? Take Edward de Vere,
      17th earl of Oxford, for example.

      your servant,
      Isobel
    • Heather Rose Jones
      ... Yup, of . Because many medieval written records used Latin, it often represents that Latin preposition de , but the French preposition is identical in
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 27, 2003
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        At 7:22 PM -0800 2/27/03, Elizabeth wrote:
        >Greetings,
        >
        > I am curious about the use of 'de' in name
        >composition. Does it mean 'of'? Take Edward de Vere,
        >17th earl of Oxford, for example.

        Yup, "of". Because many medieval written records used Latin, it
        often represents that Latin preposition "de", but the French
        preposition is identical in form, so in a Norman-English context, it
        may represent the French word. The French element is more likely in
        cases where "de" survived in what is clearly spoken use (e.g., if it
        survived in an English surname like "Delamare"). The Latin
        preposition should normally be understood as standing for some other
        word in the spoken language.

        Tangwystyl
        --
        *****
        Heather Rose Jones
        hrjones@...
        *****
      • Monica vvv
        ... Would the name have been converted to du for of the {feminine noun} in 13th-14th century France? Specifically I m hoping to register (at March Crown)
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 28, 2003
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          > Yup, "of". Because many medieval written records
          > used Latin, it often represents that Latin
          > preposition "de", but the French preposition is
          > identical in form, so in a Norman-English context,
          > it may represent the French word. The French
          > element is more likely in cases where "de" survived
          > in what is clearly spoken use (e.g., if it
          > survived in an English surname like "Delamare").
          > The Latin preposition should normally be understood
          > as standing for some other word in the spoken
          > language.

          > Tangwystyl

          Would the name have been converted to "du" for "of the
          {feminine noun}" in 13th-14th century France?

          Specifically I'm hoping to register (at March Crown)
          "Sylvie de Chardon" but "Chardon" is feminine and I'm
          not particularly fond of "du Chardon". So if "du" is
          the correct form then I'll probably register "Sylvie
          des Chardons".

          Thanks,

          Sylvie

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        • xina007eu <Christina_Lemke@hotmail.com>
          ... Hi Sylvie, Chardon is a place name, as far as I know. Sylvie de Chardon is fine. Du is actually de + le , le being the masculine article in French.
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 28, 2003
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Monica vvv <nibuca@y...> wrote:
            >
            > > Yup, "of". Because many medieval written records
            > > used Latin, it often represents that Latin
            > > preposition "de", but the French preposition is
            > > identical in form, so in a Norman-English context,
            > > it may represent the French word. The French
            > > element is more likely in cases where "de" survived
            > > in what is clearly spoken use (e.g., if it
            > > survived in an English surname like "Delamare").
            > > The Latin preposition should normally be understood
            > > as standing for some other word in the spoken
            > > language.
            >
            > > Tangwystyl
            >
            > Would the name have been converted to "du" for "of the
            > {feminine noun}" in 13th-14th century France?
            >
            > Specifically I'm hoping to register (at March Crown)
            > "Sylvie de Chardon" but "Chardon" is feminine and I'm
            > not particularly fond of "du Chardon". So if "du" is
            > the correct form then I'll probably register "Sylvie
            > des Chardons".
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Sylvie
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
            > http://taxes.yahoo.com/

            Hi Sylvie,
            Chardon is a place name, as far as I know. "Sylvie de Chardon" is
            fine. "Du" is actually "de"+"le", "le" being the masculine article in
            French. There is also chardon = thistle, is that what you mean,
            rather than the place name? Do you want to be Sylvie of the Thistle
            (or the Thistles)? In that case, it would either by Sylvie du Chardon
            or Sylvie des Chardons. "Chardon" is masculine.
            Best regards,

            Christina
          • Heather Rose Jones
            ... Du is a special contraction of de le , where le is the masculine definite article. You ve got the relevant gender switched. ... Part of this depends
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 28, 2003
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              At 8:31 AM -0800 2/28/03, Monica vvv wrote:
              > > Yup, "of". Because many medieval written records
              >> used Latin, it often represents that Latin
              >> preposition "de", but the French preposition is
              >> identical in form, so in a Norman-English context,
              >> it may represent the French word. The French
              >> element is more likely in cases where "de" survived
              >> in what is clearly spoken use (e.g., if it
              >> survived in an English surname like "Delamare"). 
              >> The Latin preposition should normally be understood
              >> as standing for some other word in the spoken
              >> language.
              >
              >> Tangwystyl
              >
              >Would the name have been converted to "du" for "of the
              >{feminine noun}" in 13th-14th century France?


              "Du" is a special contraction of "de le", where "le" is the masculine
              definite article. You've got the relevant gender switched.


              >Specifically I'm hoping to register (at March Crown)
              >"Sylvie de Chardon" but "Chardon" is feminine and I'm
              >not particularly fond of "du Chardon". So if "du" is
              >the correct form then I'll probably register "Sylvie
              >des Chardons".

              Part of this depends on what "Chardon" means and what sort of byname
              you're aiming for. (French vocabulary isn't my strong point except
              where I can fake it from English or Latin.) If it would make sense
              in English to use the phrase "of the 'Chardon'(s)" then presumably
              "de la Chardon" or "des Chardons" would be grammatically correct --
              assuming that "chardon" is feminine. But if "Chardon" is the proper
              name of a place, and the place is called "Chardon" and not "La
              Chardon", then the grammatically correct formation would be "de
              Chardon". (A separate issue, in that case, would be confirming that
              "chardon" falls in the group of the sort of things that one can be
              "of the" in period French.)

              When you get phrases like "du Bois" in French names, it's because
              "bois" is being used as an ordinary noun ("from the wood" not "from
              Bois") and is masculine.

              Tangwystyl
              --
              *****
              Heather Rose Jones
              hrjones@...
              *****
            • sismith42 <sismith42@yahoo.com>
              ... I forwarded this to my freindly, neighborhood herald (who also doubles as a boyfreind), since this is his area of specialty (he taught a class on
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 3, 2003
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                > Would the name have been converted to "du" for "of the
                > {feminine noun}" in 13th-14th century France?

                I forwarded this to my freindly, neighborhood herald (who also
                doubles as a boyfreind), since this is his area of specialty (he
                taught a class on pronouncing middle French at University, besides
                being from France):

                Steph, forward this to the appropriate list :)

                This is an answer from the top of my head without a middle French
                grammar at hand:

                The way I see it, 'du chardon' means 'of the thistle' as in
                'originating from the particular plant', which honestly strikes me as
                odd for a
                period name. 'des' or 'du' really means that something is 'from'
                somewhere. As an alternative 'des chardons' would work better because
                it could
                relate to an activity closely related to thistles like a florist
                specialised in cultivating thistles (still odd in its own way since
                thistles
                as a weed). Finally 'de Chardon' would work if there is documentation
                that there is a period place name called 'Chardon'. There is none
                that I
                can personally think of but I don't know the name of every tiny
                village
                in France.
                The bottom line is 'du chardon' although grammatically correct
                strikes
                me as very queer for a period French name.

                Hope this helps

                -Ulf
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