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Re: [Authentic_SCA] got a lot of questions...

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  • Heather Rose Jones
    ... It s not _all_ in my head! Mostly I m very good at seeking out, storing, and organizing information for convenient retrieval. Well, ok, that and
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 27, 2003
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      At 11:16 AM -0800 1/27/03, Lady Grace wrote:
      >M'lady Tangwystyl,
      > I hope I don't embarass you by saying that I am in
      >awe of your vast knowledge. I wish I had a tenth of
      >the information you have in your head.

      <laugh> It's not _all_ in my head! Mostly I'm very good at seeking
      out, storing, and organizing information for convenient retrieval.
      Well, ok, that and this thread has happened to hit on my professional
      specialty.

      > I wish to now
      >restate my previous statement of being afraid to meet
      >you to I would be so very honoured if I ever got the
      >chance to meet you. I am still not sure I would know
      >what to say beyond hello.

      That would make it a dreadfully quiet introduction then -- I'm really
      very shy in person.

      Tangwystyl
      --
      *****
      Heather Rose Jones
      hrjones@...
      *****
    • Heather Rose Jones
      ... You have fled the lace headdresses and aprons with no need -- the outfits you re describing are modern folk costume reflecting fossilized peasant best
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 27, 2003
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        At 10:40 PM +0000 1/27/03, SabineKdL <sabinekdl@...> wrote:
        >Bonjour!
        >
        >Not much advice for you, I'm afraid--I wimped out and decided my
        >persona'd been fostered off in France proper at an early age (and
        >wouldn't you know it, my Parisian family took a perfectly good
        >Breton name, Seve, and mangled it...). Besides the language, one of
        >the factors that scared me off reenacting a medieval Breton woman
        >was the costume--the lace on the head! the aprons! oof!--so I'm
        >curious to know if you've got sources that depict more esthetically
        >pleasing garb. I do read French, so I can handle non-English
        >citations if you've got them.

        You have fled the lace headdresses and aprons with no need -- the
        outfits you're describing are modern "folk costume" reflecting
        fossilized peasant "best dress" of the 19th and early 20th centuries.
        They bear about as much relationship to medieval clothing as
        Victorian ballgowns do.

        That said, I don't know of any good sources on medieval Breton
        clothing, except to note that it probably wasn't radically different
        from what everyone else in that corner of Europe was wearing. (I've
        been trying to track down useful works on the topic since I'm
        supposed to be writing a couple-hundred-word encyclopedia article on
        "medieval Celtic clothing" ... yeah, right.)

        Tangwystyl
        --
        *****
        Heather Rose Jones
        hrjones@...
        *****
      • Alison Chapman
        Not to worry about the head-dress (which is very tacky...) It is my understanding that they weren t really adopted until the 18th century or early 19th - after
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 27, 2003
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          Not to worry about the head-dress (which is very tacky...) It is my understanding that they weren't really adopted until the 18th century or early 19th - after the revolution- and the headgear style indicates which parish or department or summat the woman lives in.
          I chose 9th century for my persona, which means pretty generic loose tunics as far as I can tell.
          Whatever else I dredge up and am confident in, I will share.
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 5:40 PM
          Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: got a lot of questions...

          Bonjour!

          Not much advice for you, I'm afraid--I wimped out and decided my
          persona'd been fostered off in France proper at an early age (and
          wouldn't you know it, my Parisian family took a perfectly good
          Breton name, Seve, and mangled it...). Besides the language, one of
          the factors that scared me off reenacting a medieval Breton woman
          was the costume--the lace on the head! the aprons! oof!--so I'm
          curious to know if you've got sources that depict more esthetically
          pleasing garb. I do read French, so I can handle non-English
          citations if you've got them.

          Thanks, and good luck with your research!

                -Sabine Kerbriant
        • SabineKdL <sabinekdl@yahoo.com>
          ... centuries. Yes, I m familiar with the folkloric aspect of the modern costume reproductions, but every source I was able to dig up--not that there were
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 28, 2003
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Tangwystyl wrote:
            > You have fled the lace headdresses and aprons with no need -- the
            > outfits you're describing are modern "folk costume" reflecting
            > fossilized peasant "best dress" of the 19th and early 20th
            centuries.

            Yes, I'm familiar with the folkloric aspect of the modern costume
            reproductions, but every source I was able to dig up--not that there
            were many, nor that they were particularly useful--stated that the
            modern interpretations were simply somewhat more extreme versions of
            the 16th and 17th century renditions.

            Hence my reasoning that a small lace headdress was not really all
            that much more tempting than a large one, and ditto on unembellished
            aprons instead of heavily embroidered!

            As I said, if anyone has decent sources, I'm very eager to see them.
            Malheureusement, I can't get away with "generic early Celtic," as
            I've gone later period--somewhere late 13th/early 14th c.

            -Sabine Kerbriant
          • azilisarmor <alsnchap@twcny.rr.com>
            ... them. ... I tried going the other way looking for your garb - i.e., when did they start making lace. But the lace stuff only goes back to the 16th
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 31, 2003
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "SabineKdL <sabinekdl@y...>"
              <sabinekdl@y...> wrote:
              >
              > As I said, if anyone has decent sources, I'm very eager to see
              them.
              > Malheureusement, I can't get away with "generic early Celtic," as
              > I've gone later period--somewhere late 13th/early 14th c.
              >
              > -Sabine Kerbriant


              I tried going the "other" way looking for your garb - i.e., when did
              they start making lace. But the lace stuff only goes back to the
              16th century. Given that there was an effort to encourage domestic
              lace production in France in that period, one might surmise that
              the "authentic costumes" came out of somebody's political agenda?
              Anyhow, looking at Breton history, and the amount of traffic they
              had with both the English and the French while trying to maintain
              their political identity, it would seem reasonable for you to stick
              with your French costume (or go English.)
            • SabineKdL <sabinekdl@yahoo.com>
              Actually, I came across an interesting tidbit the other day--not so useful in terms of specifically Breton dress, but nice for the heraldic surcote crowd! ;)
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 31, 2003
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                Actually, I came across an interesting tidbit the other day--not so
                useful in terms of specifically Breton dress, but nice for the
                heraldic surcote crowd! ;) There's a church in Brittany that has
                several early 15th-c stained glass windows, described at
                http://www.guengat.com/4/AutresNobles1.html

                Both men and women are portrayed in heraldic clothing:

                Dans l'église de Guengat, sur un vitrail du bas-côté sud, est
                représenté saint Michel présentant un seigneur et une dame. Le
                seigneur est vêtu d'une cotte armoriée d'hermines endenchées de
                sable et fait partie de la famille KERIGNY DE KERDREIN. Ce doit être
                Maurice DE KERIGNY, écuyer, seigneur de Kerdrein, et sa femme Jeanne
                DE ROSCERF. Ces derniers n'eurent qu'une fille, qui épousa Jean DE
                KERHARO, dernier du nom (18).

                Dans le même vitrail, est représentée Sainte Barbe présentant un
                seigneur et une dame. Le seigneur porte sur son corselet un écusson
                à trois losanges d'argent, 2 et 1 (« de gueules à trois losanges
                d'argent, 2 et 1 » (19)). Une charte du 8/X/1434 mentionne Henri DE
                BRUèRE (20) qui blasonne 3 losanges accompagnés en chef d'un lambel
                à trois pendants. La dame a « une robe d'azur au lion rampant d'or,
                couronné et lampassé d'argent » (21). Ceci nous démontre donc
                l'alliance d'un DE BRUYèRE avec les KERIGNY.

                Other pages on that site show various church carvings and windows
                depicting people, but the pictures are all too small to show details
                (grrrrr!), and I haven't come across any other images on-line--my
                next library trip, I'll see if I can turn any up!

                -Sabine Kerbriant
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