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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Digest Number 1430

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  • Eoconll@aol.com
    In a message dated 11/27/2002 7:56:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... My thanks to all for their help with this. I m still not sure what to do, although putting
    Message 1 of 1 , Nov 28, 2002
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      In a message dated 11/27/2002 7:56:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

        Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:59:01 -0500
        From: Heidi/Clarissa <koala@...>
      Subject: re: pockets in men's clothes

      I turfed this question to my husband, who doesn't read this list but did
      some research on this topic for his own use.  The pockets in his
      Elizabethan breeches (which he made himself) came out very nicely and are
      next to invisible unless his hand is in 'em.  Surprises folks all the time
      when he reaches in for something.
      Clarissa
      (addendum: he just told me that he really put in regular, modern men's
      trousers in-seam pockets, with the opening hidden in a pleat of the
      breeches.  <shrug>  What can I say?  His authenticity level/interest is
      growing, but the breeches are a few years' old...  C.>

      >>when did pockets for men first come into history?

      >Despina has mentioned Janet Arnold's work, and I just wanted to
      >echo her comment.  On page 59 in her "Patterns of Fashion" is a
      >drawing of the pluderhose worn by Svante Sture when he was
      >murdered in Upsala Castle in 1567.  On the wearer's right-hand
      >side is a pocket bag on the outside of the pluderhose, with its
      >leather drawstring passing into and then back out of the
      >waistband and the ends knotted.  In the text Arnold says the
      >pocket bag hangs free inside the pluderhose.  There is no pocket
      >bag on the left.
      >
      >Page 75 of the same work shows a pattern for a doublet and
      >trunkhose believed to have been worn at the coronation of James
      >the VI and I (can you tell I'm a bit of a Scottish patriot?)
      >showing large pocket bags which hang between the fustian lining
      >and the woolen interlining.  Apparently the edges of the pocket
      >bag are sewn to the side seams of the trunkhose in a manner
      >similar to modern trouser in-seam pockets, except that the bag is
      >then centered on the seam rather than being folded toward the
      >front as is the modern style.  There is a strip of silk taffeta
      >sewn to the fustian behind the opening, rather like the facings
      >on a modern pocket.
      >
      >Page 87 shows a pair of venetians in the Germanisches
      >Nationalmuseum in Nuremburg.  The dates given are 1615-20 but
      >some of the text describes similar garments as early as 1583.
      >These venetians apparently also had pocket bags similar to those
      >mentioned above.  The pocket bag on the right is missing.
      >
      >Page 89 shows a "suit consisting of doublet and trunk-hose" and
      >is dated 1618.  The trunkhose have a pocket bag made of a
      >suede-like leather (like chamois) on the right side.  The pocket
      >bag is sewn in and centered on the opening (there is no side
      >seam) like those mentioned previously.  It is unclear to me
      >whether there is also a pocket on the left.
      >
      >Page 91 shows a doublet and trunkhose in the Museo Parmigianino
      >with a leather pocket bag shaped very much like home plate but
      >with the point upward.  The date is 1615-20.  According to the
      >text there are pocket bags on both sides.
      >
      >>From these examples we can see pockets were not uncommon near the
      >end of the SCA period.  The pockets may be inside or outside the
      >hose, and the technique is similar to a modern trouser in-seam
      >pocket, except that the pockets are folded and centered on the
      >opening instead of being folded to the front.
      >
      >I think it's also important to note that these pockets were in
      >the garments of wealthy men.  Poor or middle-class men probably
      >had no pockets, nor indeed anything to put in them, a fact we
      >modern folk are likely to forget.
      >
      >Laird Coinneach Mac an Leigh
      >
      >--
      >The average human being has one boob and one ball.
      >                    -Stef Maruch



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             My thanks to all for their help with this.  I'm still not sure what to do, although putting more hidden pockets on does sound most likely.  I may try some later garb, as well.  Then again, I wonder if they'd let AEdh macBatman slide by?  Hmmmm...!      I'll keep hoping that they find the remains of 'cargo breeches' in some ancient burial site, as well.  -AEdh macBatman  (it does have a ring to it!)  (;))
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