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Re: Plausibility of name vs. culture

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  • xina007eu
    ... wrote: ... and ... many ... I ... security ... through ... Richard ... in ... Henry ... as ... not ... so ...
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 26 2:15 AM
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      --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn"
      <malvoisine@y...> wrote:
      <snipping my own post>
      > In the early 1470's, no one knew or cared much about Henry Tudor
      > he certainly was not thought of as any threat to the House of
      > Plantagenet and there is no evidence that I have found that very
      > people paid much attention to him until the end of that decade and
      > don't think the Duchess Margaret would have considered him a
      > risk. Edward VI made desultory attempts to keep tabs on him
      > the Duke of Brittany, but raised no alarms about him. It was
      > III, almost 10 years later who tried to have the Duke of Brittany
      > extradite him, forcing Henry to flee to France. This, of course,
      > being a big mistake, as the French gave him money and troops. But
      > the early 1470's Henry Tudor was "an obscure and penniless refugee
      > living in Britanny" and was "so totally unimportant politically".
      > This is from Charles Ross' The Wars of the Roses, pp.94-95. As
      > Tudor was a) very unimportant at this time and b) most likely poor
      > he was living in Brittany under the care and feeding of his uncle,
      > Jasper Tudor, it is doubtful he was ever presented in Burgundian
      > court circles, nor do I think the house of Burgundy ever took much
      > notice of him, again, until the death of Edward VI. Additionally,
      > Mary, who became the duchess of Burgundy at the death of her father
      > Charles the Bold of Burgundy in 1477, was Margaret's adult
      > stepdaughter (Margaret was Charles the Bold's third wife) and was
      > related by blood to the Plantagenets - she was never as concerned
      > with what went on in England in the 1580's as her stepmother was,
      > again, it's doubtful the Burgundians would have considered him a
      > security risk until after he openly declared his intent to invade
      > England and by then, he had money and supporters. Margaret
      > despised him post Bosworth and did her all to support plots to
      > and/or murder him from her exile in the Netherlands, but that was
      > the late 1580's and until her death in the early 1500's, by which
      > time Henry was Henry VII, king by right of conquest, as he had it
      > put. All I was trying to get across for Lady Generys, was that it
      > certainly plausible that there were Welsh people in this portion of
      > Europe at this time - they were definitely, indisputably in
      > and there is no reason any Welsh persons in Jasper Tudor's
      > couldn't have visited Burgundy, made trade contacts, etc.I was
      > to give her a direction of research to go in, as her post indicated
      > she wasn't sure if there was any real Welsh contact with Burgundy
      > this time.

      I didn't mean Henry was a risk for the Burgundian court. I meant that
      a connection with the Burgundian court might have been a security
      risk for Henry if anybody there had found out about his actions and
      reported them to Margaret who would have reported them back to
      England or even have taken steps herself to remove Henry.

      Anyway, Generys' persona was born in 1475 and sent to
      the "Burgundian" court in 1480 so that still leaves us with the "what
      court" question. Did Mary keep her own court after her marriage to
      Maximilian? Or would the Duchess who would have fostered the girl
      have to have been the then Dowager Duchess Margaret? If we are
      looking for someone who would have to have lived at least until 1491,
      when Generys's persona would have married, that leaves only Margaret.
      How independent was she? In how far did she keep her own court? Where
      would Generys's persona have grown up? Would she have managed to be
      completely Burgundian under the circumstances or wouldn't that have
      been possible at that time? My suggestion would be to find a less
      problematic time period or a different story - go to the French court
      or whatever. Or have her be a merchant's daughter and let her grow up
      in the household of her godfather, who happens to be an overseas
      business partner of her father's, something like that. You are less
      dependent on politics that way.

      The main point of my post was that one needn't construct chains of
      contact via Henry or Jasper Tudor in Brittany as there was a
      connection between the English and the Burgundian court. And a Welsh
      nobleman would have belonged to the English court, Wales not being an
      independent country at that point of time. Of course, if Generys
      should be a Lancastrian/Tudor supporter (as I assume you are), she
      probably wouldn't want a connection via the Yorkist court for her
      persona. In that case she should however rethink her whole story
      because the "Duchess of Burgundy" in question would have been a

      > >Have you got any
      > > reliable sources that state he did? Of course Wales was not an
      > > independent country at that time, it had been conquered by
      > > quite a while before, so one can assume that Welsh people might
      > have
      > > found their way to Burgundy via the English court (Edward's or
      > > Richard's). IIRC Burgundy ceased to exists when Mary, daughter of
      > > Charles the Bold and Margaret, married Emperor Maximilian (in
      > > 1477,after her father's death). Burgundy was divided a few years
      > > later, in 1482 I think, after a war between Maximilian and the
      > > of France, and each of them got a part of it. Henry Tudor left
      > > Brittany for France at some point and any Burgundian objects he
      > owned
      > > might well have come to him via the King.
      > My source for the Merode cup was The Tudor Chronicles: The Kings -
      > edited by David Loades - it doesn't give a provenance or a date for
      > the cup, merely gives a caption that Henry brought it to England
      > Burgundy - as with most artifacts, the belonging to Henry VII part
      > may be apocryphal, god knows I saw plenty of 18th century shoes in
      > Scotland that were supposed to have belonged to Mary Queen of
      > Again, what I was hoping to do was to point Generys in a direction
      > where she might be able to do more research and maybe pinpoint
      > when/if the Welsh were in Burgundy.
      > Toujours a vos ordres,
      > Margaret Hepburn

      Yes, there often is no real evidence an object belonged to the person
      in question, e.g. "Henry VIII's writing desk" at the V&A and "Henry
      VIII's hat ornament" in the Queen's collection (currently I think on
      show in Buckingham Palace). As if the objects weren't interesting
      enough on their own.

      Best regards,

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