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pockets

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  • Eoconll@aol.com
    Sorry, I may have innadvertantly sent a reply that I was saving to my filing cabinet fro persona ideas. But as long as I m here, when did pockets for men
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 22, 2002
             Sorry, I may have innadvertantly sent a reply that I was saving to my filing cabinet fro persona ideas.  But as long as I'm here, when did pockets for men first come into history?  Frankly, it make me crazy not to have them.  I'm usually wearing 2 poches for wallet, keys, checkbook, sunglasses, camera, etc.  I imagine looking like I'm wearing Batman's utility belt eventually.  Mundanely, I usually wear cargo pants as often as possible, and I ALMOST have enough pockets!  The lounging-type pants that I wear as hose under my tunic has 2 unseen pockets, and that helps.  I might almost consider changing periods if pockets come in in period.                        -AEdh macDarach
    • wodeford
      ... saving to my ... did pockets ... I m not certain, though I DO know that 18th century ladies wore pockets on a cord around their waist beneath their
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 22, 2002
        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Eoconll@a... wrote:
        > Sorry, I may have innadvertantly sent a reply that I was
        saving to my
        > filing cabinet fro persona ideas. But as long as I'm here, when
        did pockets
        > for men first come into history?

        I'm not certain, though I DO know that 18th century ladies
        wore "pockets" on a cord around their waist beneath their petticoats.
        (An example from a Rev War sutler is at
        http://www.jastown.com/womens/pc-710.htm)

        A possible solution to your "utility belt" troubles is a pilgrim's
        scrip:
        http://www.geocities.com/svenskildbiter/Craft/psatchel.html has a
        good pattern. I made one out of natural colored fustian as a gift for
        a friend last year.

        Jehanne de Wodeford
      • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
        ... There are pocket slits in Turkish caftans in the 1500 s. I m working on a translation for a dress right now that the author states has a pocket slit in it
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 22, 2002
          At 02:04 PM 11/22/2002 -0500, you wrote:
          > Sorry, I may have innadvertantly sent a reply that I was saving to
          > my filing cabinet fro persona ideas. But as long as I'm here, when did
          > pockets for men first come into history? Frankly, it make me crazy not
          > to have them. I'm usually wearing 2 poches for wallet, keys, checkbook,
          > sunglasses, camera, etc. I imagine looking like I'm wearing Batman's
          > utility belt eventually. Mundanely, I usually wear cargo pants as often
          > as possible, and I ALMOST have enough pockets! The lounging-type pants
          > that I wear as hose under my tunic has 2 unseen pockets, and that
          > helps. I might almost consider changing periods if pockets come in in
          > period.

          There are pocket slits in Turkish caftans in the 1500's. I'm working on a
          translation for a dress right now that the author states has a pocket slit
          in it - the dress dates to 1598. IIRC, some Tudor era poofypants stuff for
          guys had pockets but I'll have to double check. It would be in Janet
          Arnold's "cut of clothes" and I don't have that at work.

          Smiles,
          Despina de la translating is fun


          ----------

          ----------
          Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty. --
          Mark Twain

          ----------
        • Julie Stackable
          Pockets are very much in evidence for men and women in the 16th century. Janet Arnold s patterns of Fashion shows pockets on almost all of the men s pants,
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 23, 2002
            Pockets are very much in evidence for men and
            women in the 16th century. Janet Arnold's
            patterns of Fashion shows pockets on almost all
            of the men's pants, there is also a pocket in one
            of the Sture doublets (the leather one) on one of
            the front picadils which has a flap over it. The
            Eleanora of Toledo dress has a slit for a pocket
            also. In QEWU, there 6 or 7 citations/ descrip-
            tions referring to pockets as well as a portrait
            of Joan Thornbury, Mrs. Huge Wakeman, 1566 and
            there is visibly a handkerchief hanging out of a
            pocket. Lastly, there is a portrait of Sir Thomas
            Kennedy of Culzean in the Scottish National
            Potrait Gallery from 1592 - there is a row of
            buttons over his bicep on his right arm that
            Rosalind Marshall describes as being the closure
            of a sleeve pocket placed in the thickness of the
            padding. Don's know if that solves your problem
            at all or gives any suggestions....
            Margaret Hepburn

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          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
            In a message dated 11/23/2002 7:09:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... One of the pairs of trunk hose in Janet Arnold has evidence of sewn-in pockets; myhusband
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 24, 2002
              In a message dated 11/23/2002 7:09:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:


              But as long as I'm here, when did pockets
              for men first come into history?  Frankly, it make me crazy not to have them.
              I'm usually wearing 2 poches for wallet, keys, checkbook, sunglasses,
              camera, etc.  I imagine looking like I'm wearing Batman's utility belt
              eventually.


              One of the pairs of trunk hose in Janet Arnold has evidence of sewn-in pockets; myhusband found it when he was looking for a pair to make.  I seem to remember that it was slightly post SCA period though...I'm afraid I don't remember which one it ws, though.

              Depending on what period you are doing, there is evidence for a 12-13th century shoulder bag carried by pilgrims - it looks much like the haversack offered by Panther Primitives, but smaller.  I made one for Pennsic, but I find myself using it a lot more frequently that that - I wore it at Hundred Minutes War  in the East yesterday, because I needed wallet, keys, cell phone, and a bag or order medallions (wrapped in plastic) that needed to be delivered with me.
              There is a website regarding this bag and the making thereof at
              http://www.geocities.com/svenskildbiter/Craft/maciejowskysatchel.html

              Brangwayna Morgan
              (and yes, some of the statues, most of them maybe, shown wearing them are male ...)
            • xina007eu
              ... saving to my ... did pockets ... have them. ... sunglasses, ... belt ... possible, and ... as hose ... almost consider ... period.
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 24, 2002
                --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Eoconll@a... wrote:
                > Sorry, I may have innadvertantly sent a reply that I was
                saving to my
                > filing cabinet fro persona ideas. But as long as I'm here, when
                did pockets
                > for men first come into history? Frankly, it make me crazy not to
                have them.
                > I'm usually wearing 2 poches for wallet, keys, checkbook,
                sunglasses,
                > camera, etc. I imagine looking like I'm wearing Batman's utility
                belt
                > eventually. Mundanely, I usually wear cargo pants as often as
                possible, and
                > I ALMOST have enough pockets! The lounging-type pants that I wear
                as hose
                > under my tunic has 2 unseen pockets, and that helps. I might
                almost consider
                > changing periods if pockets come in in
                period. -AEdh
                > macDarach

                In the 1560s boy's doublet from Alpirsbach (pattern used to be on
                http://www.srmdel.demon.co.uk/FlamePeace/AOPSeptBatch/wukpatterns.htm,
                now only available via http://archive.org), the front skirts serve as
                pockets, with the little triangular flap over the opening. I don't
                know how large your camera is, but you could probably fit the rest of
                your stuff in there easily.
                If that doesn't appeal to you, you could get a satchel (like a
                shoulder bag, worn diagonally across the body).

                Best regards,

                Christina
              • Lynne Lowe
                ... Hi, What I have is not a primary source but it could provide a starting point. I remember reading about pockets at a much earlier era but with life getting
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 28, 2002
                  >. But as long
                  > as I'm here, when did
                  > > pockets for men first come into history?


                  Hi,
                  What I have is not a primary source but it could
                  provide a starting point. I remember reading about
                  pockets at a much earlier era but with life getting in
                  the way, it took until today to find it. There is a
                  series of murder mysteries about Sister Fidelma set in
                  Ireland in the 664-666 time period, written by Peter
                  Tremayne. He is properly known as Peter Berresford
                  Ellis, a Celtic scholar, who has written a number of
                  books in the field of Celtic studies.In his book
                  "Absolution by Murder" which is set in the great
                  debate between the Celtic and Roman Churches held in
                  Whitby in what is now England in the year 664 the new
                  fashion of sewn in pockets plays a part of the plot.
                  "But a new fashion was emerging and that was for
                  religious to have a sacculus of linen sewn into the
                  folds of their garments as a means of greater
                  protection for their private belongings. The fashion
                  originated in Frankia where they called it a little
                  pouch or pocket."
                  If he were not a serious scholar I wouldn't have
                  really paid attention to it as a real possibility for
                  the age of pockets. However he seems to try to be
                  fairly accurate with his details. If he found the
                  information to use in his book then it must be out
                  there from that time period to be found. If the
                  religious were starting to use it in 664 then I would
                  think others would have picked up the fashion in
                  subsequent years.
                  I hope this is of some help.

                  Alycia d'Alcyone

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                • Heather Rose Jones
                  ... The problem is, even a historian isn t a historian in _everything_. And it s trivially easy for someone who isn t a specialist in clothing history to come
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 28, 2002
                    At 4:39 PM -0800 11/28/02, Lynne Lowe wrote:
                    >
                    >>. But as long
                    >> as I'm here, when did
                    >> > pockets for men first come into history?
                    >
                    >
                    >Hi,
                    > What I have is not a primary source but it could
                    >provide a starting point. I remember reading about
                    >pockets at a much earlier era but with life getting in
                    >the way, it took until today to find it. There is a
                    >series of murder mysteries about Sister Fidelma set in
                    >Ireland in the 664-666 time period, written by Peter
                    >Tremayne. He is properly known as Peter Berresford
                    >Ellis, a Celtic scholar, who has written a number of
                    >books in the field of Celtic studies.In his book
                    >"Absolution by Murder" which is set in the great
                    >debate between the Celtic and Roman Churches held in
                    >Whitby in what is now England in the year 664 the new
                    >fashion of sewn in pockets plays a part of the plot.
                    > "But a new fashion was emerging and that was for
                    >religious to have a sacculus of linen sewn into the
                    >folds of their garments as a means of greater
                    >protection for their private belongings. The fashion
                    >originated in Frankia where they called it a little
                    >pouch or pocket."
                    > If he were not a serious scholar I wouldn't have
                    >really paid attention to it as a real possibility for
                    >the age of pockets. However he seems to try to be
                    >fairly accurate with his details. If he found the
                    >information to use in his book then it must be out
                    >there from that time period to be found. If the
                    >religious were starting to use it in 664 then I would
                    >think others would have picked up the fashion in
                    >subsequent years.
                    > I hope this is of some help.

                    The problem is, even a historian isn't a historian in _everything_.
                    And it's trivially easy for someone who isn't a specialist in
                    clothing history to come up with improbable interpretations of
                    clothing references, simply because they don't have the background
                    context to consider other data and other possible interpretations.
                    Before I drew conclusions about the "sacculus" mentioned in the above
                    novel, I'd want to see the original data in context and compare it
                    with other examples of the same vocabulary from the same period
                    (assuming there aren't any surviving garments that might shed light
                    on the question).

                    I've read historic novels by people who got the basic history down
                    very thoroughly but then made astounding gaffes in some aspect of
                    material culture (like putting black lace on the cuffs of a 12th
                    century gown). So even with an author that I found generally
                    trustworthy, I'd consider a particular clothing description to be a
                    clue to a possible path to follow, but very far from evidence or
                    proof.

                    Tangwystyl
                    --
                    *****
                    Heather Rose Jones
                    hrjones@...
                    *****
                  • xina007eu
                    You have to be really careful about this. Is the author a specialist in the areas of textiles and clothing? Has he written anything about these topics? It
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 2, 2002
                      You have to be really careful about this. Is the author a specialist
                      in the areas of textiles and clothing? Has he written anything about
                      these topics? It doesn't matter whether he's knowledgeable in other
                      fields of Celtic culture.
                      This reminds me of a detective story I once read that's set in
                      Elizabethan times, _Face Down among the Winchester Geese_ by Kathy
                      Lynn Emerson. In this book, the author (who has also written a book
                      about daily life in Elizabethan times, to be used as a reference by
                      writers of historical fiction) mentions that someone puts a letter
                      into her cloak pocket. I'm still trying to find a reference that
                      cloaks had pockets in the mid-16th century, and I've been looking for
                      about a year now.

                      If the author in question is still alive and has a web site with an
                      email address listed on it, one might try mailing them and ask them
                      for information including their original sources (in the original
                      language, of course), I guess. The "sacculus", if there is indeed a
                      reference in any comtemporary source, might simply be a pouch that's
                      accessible through a fitchet.

                      Best regards,

                      Christina

                      --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Lynne Lowe <grovegarden@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >. But as long
                      > > as I'm here, when did
                      > > > pockets for men first come into history?
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi,
                      > What I have is not a primary source but it could
                      > provide a starting point. I remember reading about
                      > pockets at a much earlier era but with life getting in
                      > the way, it took until today to find it. There is a
                      > series of murder mysteries about Sister Fidelma set in
                      > Ireland in the 664-666 time period, written by Peter
                      > Tremayne. He is properly known as Peter Berresford
                      > Ellis, a Celtic scholar, who has written a number of
                      > books in the field of Celtic studies.In his book
                      > "Absolution by Murder" which is set in the great
                      > debate between the Celtic and Roman Churches held in
                      > Whitby in what is now England in the year 664 the new
                      > fashion of sewn in pockets plays a part of the plot.
                      > "But a new fashion was emerging and that was for
                      > religious to have a sacculus of linen sewn into the
                      > folds of their garments as a means of greater
                      > protection for their private belongings. The fashion
                      > originated in Frankia where they called it a little
                      > pouch or pocket."
                      > If he were not a serious scholar I wouldn't have
                      > really paid attention to it as a real possibility for
                      > the age of pockets. However he seems to try to be
                      > fairly accurate with his details. If he found the
                      > information to use in his book then it must be out
                      > there from that time period to be found. If the
                      > religious were starting to use it in 664 then I would
                      > think others would have picked up the fashion in
                      > subsequent years.
                      > I hope this is of some help.
                      >
                      > Alycia d'Alcyone
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
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                      > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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