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Dragged kicking & screaming into 16th C!

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  • Joan Hall
    My dear husband, having bought himself garb on-line [and paid a small fortune, but we won t go there!] has just announced that he wants us to match. The garb
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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      My dear husband, having bought himself garb on-line
      [and paid a small fortune, but we won't go there!] has
      just announced that he wants us to "match."

      The garb he bought is definitely late-period. (The
      word "cavalier" flutters around the edge of my
      awareness, but I keep swatting it away!) In terms of
      socio-economic class, it is clearly the garb of
      someone financially comfortable, but I don't think it
      really says "noble." I think it's sort of "prosperous
      merchant" in nature.

      Yes, there is an actual question and I'm getting to
      it!
      If I am to leave my beloved 12th century and create
      one (and only one) set of 16th c. garb, AND if this
      garb is merchant-y rather than noble-y, must there be
      a corset plus a bodice? Could I get away with a
      back-laced bodice that has a busk in it? Could I get
      away with no busk-y corset-y stuff at all? I don't
      want to do an all-out peasant outfit because I dont'
      want to be taken for his wife's maid instead of his
      wife!

      Joan the Harper

      =====
      "And she'd had lucky eyes and a high heart, and wisdom that caught fire, at need, like the dried flax and made her beautiful and fierce, sudden and laughing."
      [My favorite line of poetry in the world, from Yeats' "The Old Age of Queen Maeve."]

      __________________________________________________
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    • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
      ... no. ... yes ... no. Without some form of support, the line of the garments will not be right and it will look like you need support garments (in modern
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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        At 07:29 AM 11/21/2002 -0800, you wrote:
        >If I am to leave my beloved 12th century and create
        >one (and only one) set of 16th c. garb, AND if this
        >garb is merchant-y rather than noble-y, must there be
        >a corset plus a bodice?

        no.

        > Could I get away with a
        >back-laced bodice that has a busk in it?

        yes

        > Could I get
        >away with no busk-y corset-y stuff at all?

        no.

        Without some form of support, the line of the garments will not be right
        and it will look like you need support garments (in modern terms, think of
        the woman with DD who doesn't wear a bra under her t-shirt, same effect to
        the mind in the time frame you're talking about if you don't wear the
        proper undergarments).

        Smiles,
        Despina de la they aren't uncomfortable, honest
      • marshamclean@rogers.com
        Weeeyyll... Yes and no. A merchant would most likely have a corset. She would definitely have some boning in a petticoat bodice (see the back of PoF, a
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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          Weeeyyll... Yes and no. A merchant would most likely have a corset. She would definitely have some boning in a "petticoat bodice" (see the back of PoF, a red velvet petticoat bodice with boning). I think you'll find Drea di Pellegrini's effigy corset http://costume.dm.net/effigy.htm is quite comfy. I made mine using mid weight linen and basketry reeds, only using metal bones at the front and back openings. I love it. It is quite confortable and I can belly dance in it. A proper Elizabethan corset is, IMHO, more comfortable than a bra. Its object is not to cinch the waist, but rather to smooth and support. You needn't make it tight, just snug enough to support your breasts comfortably and smooth your silhouette for easier fitting.

          I would be happy to help, should you require any. I have been doing Elizabethan corsetry for 18 years now, as designing Elizabethan costume since grade school.

          Madinia
          >
          > From: Joan Hall <joan_the_harpist1119@...>
          > Date: 2002/11/21 Thu AM 10:29:51 EST
          > To: Authentic SCA <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Dragged kicking & screaming into 16th C!
          >
          > My dear husband, having bought himself garb on-line
          > [and paid a small fortune, but we won't go there!] has
          > just announced that he wants us to "match."
          >
          > The garb he bought is definitely late-period. (The
          > word "cavalier" flutters around the edge of my
          > awareness, but I keep swatting it away!) In terms of
          > socio-economic class, it is clearly the garb of
          > someone financially comfortable, but I don't think it
          > really says "noble." I think it's sort of "prosperous
          > merchant" in nature.
          >
          > Yes, there is an actual question and I'm getting to
          > it!
          > If I am to leave my beloved 12th century and create
          > one (and only one) set of 16th c. garb, AND if this
          > garb is merchant-y rather than noble-y, must there be
          > a corset plus a bodice? Could I get away with a
          > back-laced bodice that has a busk in it? Could I get
          > away with no busk-y corset-y stuff at all? I don't
          > want to do an all-out peasant outfit because I dont'
          > want to be taken for his wife's maid instead of his
          > wife!
          >
          > Joan the Harper
          >
          > =====
          > "And she'd had lucky eyes and a high heart, and wisdom that caught fire, at need, like the dried flax and made her beautiful and fierce, sudden and laughing."
          > [My favorite line of poetry in the world, from Yeats' "The Old Age of Queen Maeve."]
          >
          > __________________________________________________
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          > Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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          > authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
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          >
          >
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          >
          >
          >
        • Kristen Murray-Todd
          Just a quick naive question: What would an Elizabethan lady know about belly dancing? Caelainn ... From: marshamclean@rogers.com
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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            RE: [Authentic_SCA] Dragged kicking & screaming into 16th C!

            Just a quick naive question:
            What would an Elizabethan lady know about belly dancing?

            Caelainn

            -----Original Message-----
            From: marshamclean@... [mailto:marshamclean@...]
            Sent: Thu, November 21, 2002 9:03 AM
            To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Dragged kicking & screaming into 16th C!


            Weeeyyll...  Yes and no.  A merchant would most likely have a corset.  She would definitely have some boning in a "petticoat bodice" (see the back of PoF, a red velvet petticoat bodice with boning).  I think you'll find Drea di Pellegrini's effigy corset http://costume.dm.net/effigy.htm is quite comfy.  I made mine using mid weight linen and basketry reeds, only using metal bones at the front and back openings.  I love it.  It is quite confortable and I can belly dance in it.  A proper Elizabethan corset is, IMHO, more comfortable than a bra.  Its object is not to cinch the waist, but rather to smooth and support.  You needn't make it tight, just snug enough to support your breasts comfortably and smooth your silhouette for easier fitting.

            I would be happy to help, should you require any.  I have been doing Elizabethan corsetry for 18 years now, as designing Elizabethan costume since grade school.

            Madinia
            >
            > From: Joan Hall <joan_the_harpist1119@...>
            > Date: 2002/11/21 Thu AM 10:29:51 EST
            > To: Authentic SCA <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Dragged kicking & screaming into 16th C!
            >
            > My dear husband, having bought himself garb on-line
            > [and paid a small fortune, but we won't go there!] has
            > just announced that he wants us to "match."
            >
            > The garb he bought is definitely late-period.  (The
            > word "cavalier" flutters around the edge of my
            > awareness, but I keep swatting it away!)  In terms of
            > socio-economic class, it is clearly the garb of
            > someone financially comfortable, but I don't think it
            > really says "noble."  I think it's sort of "prosperous
            > merchant" in nature.
            >
            > Yes, there is an actual question and I'm getting to
            > it!
            > If I am to leave my beloved 12th century and create
            > one (and only one) set of 16th c. garb, AND if this
            > garb is merchant-y rather than noble-y, must there be
            > a corset plus a bodice?  Could I get away with a
            > back-laced bodice that has a busk in it?  Could I get
            > away with no busk-y corset-y stuff at all?  I don't
            > want to do an all-out peasant outfit because I dont'
            > want to be taken for his wife's maid instead of his
            > wife!
            >
            > Joan the Harper
            >
            > =====
            > "And she'd had lucky eyes and a high heart, and wisdom that caught fire, at need, like the dried flax and made her beautiful and fierce, sudden and laughing."

            > [My favorite line of poetry in the world, from Yeats' "The Old Age of Queen Maeve."]
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
            > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------
            > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >

            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >


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          • marshamclean@rogers.com
            ... She wouldn t - she sucks at it. But it was a -good- party. And this Elizabethan lady s game for anything that is not *too* improper. The bounds
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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              RE: [Authentic_SCA] Dragged kicking & screaming into 16th C!

              Just a quick naive question:
              What would an Elizabethan lady know about belly dancing?

              Caelainn

              -----Original Message-----
              From: marshamclean@... [mailto:marshamclean@...]
              Sent: Thu, November 21, 2002 9:03 AM
              To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Dragged kicking & screaming into 16th C!


              Weeeyyll...  Yes and no.  A merchant would most likely have a corset.  She would definitely have some boning in a "petticoat bodice" (see the back of PoF, a red velvet petticoat bodice with boning).  I think you'll find Drea di Pellegrini's effigy corset http://costume.dm.net/effigy.htm is quite comfy.  I made mine using mid weight linen and basketry reeds, only using metal bones at the front and back openings.  I love it.  It is quite confortable and I can belly dance in it.  A proper Elizabethan corset is, IMHO, more comfortable than a bra.  Its object is not to cinch the waist, but rather to smooth and support.  You needn't make it tight, just snug enough to support your breasts comfortably and smooth your silhouette for easier fitting.

              I would be happy to help, should you require any.  I have been doing Elizabethan corsetry for 18 years now, as designing Elizabethan costume since grade school.

              Madinia
              >
              > From: Joan Hall <joan_the_harpist1119@...>
              > Date: 2002/11/21 Thu AM 10:29:51 EST
              > To: Authentic SCA <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Dragged kicking & screaming into 16th C!
              >
              > My dear husband, having bought himself garb on-line
              > [and paid a small fortune, but we won't go there!] has
              > just announced that he wants us to "match."
              >
              > The garb he bought is definitely late-period.  (The
              > word "cavalier" flutters around the edge of my
              > awareness, but I keep swatting it away!)  In terms of
              > socio-economic class, it is clearly the garb of
              > someone financially comfortable, but I don't think it
              > really says "noble."  I think it's sort of "prosperous
              > merchant" in nature.
              >
              > Yes, there is an actual question and I'm getting to
              > it!
              > If I am to leave my beloved 12th century and create
              > one (and only one) set of 16th c. garb, AND if this
              > garb is merchant-y rather than noble-y, must there be
              > a corset plus a bodice?  Could I get away with a
              > back-laced bodice that has a busk in it?  Could I get
              > away with no busk-y corset-y stuff at all?  I don't
              > want to do an all-out peasant outfit because I dont'
              > want to be taken for his wife's maid instead of his
              > wife!
              >
              > Joan the Harper
              >
              > =====
              > "And she'd had lucky eyes and a high heart, and wisdom that caught fire, at need, like the dried flax and made her beautiful and fierce, sudden and laughing."

              > [My favorite line of poetry in the world, from Yeats' "The Old Age of Queen Maeve."]
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
              > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
              >
              > ----------------------------------------------------
              > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >

              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >


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            • wodeford
              ... Elizabethan......belly dancing......same sentence......does..not...compute.....brain cramp imminent.....OW! OW! OW! Jehanne de Wodeford
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Kristen Murray-Todd <Kristen_Murray-
                Todd@l...> wrote:
                > Just a quick naive question:
                > What would an Elizabethan lady know about belly dancing?

                Elizabethan......belly dancing......same
                sentence......does..not...compute.....brain cramp imminent.....OW!
                OW! OW!

                Jehanne de Wodeford
              • Carolle M Cox
                16th Century where? I m a mere 15th century merchant s wife, and my time pretty well pre-dates most corsets. AND i m large. I do bodices with a bit of
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                  16th Century where? I'm a mere 15th century merchant's wife, and my time
                  pretty well pre-dates most corsets. AND i'm large. I do bodices with a bit
                  of <ahem> support in strategic places and get on with life!

                  Gerita
                  butting in to her granddaughter's time . . .
                • wodeford
                  ... Wait a minute, this is the outfit he bought all by himself. Without consulting you. And now HE wants - No. Comment. Not. Going. There. The portcullis is
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Joan Hall <joan_the_harpist1119@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > My dear husband, having bought himself garb on-line
                    > [and paid a small fortune, but we won't go there!] has
                    > just announced that he wants us to "match."

                    Wait a minute, this is the outfit he bought all by himself. Without
                    consulting you. And now HE wants -

                    No. Comment. Not. Going. There. The portcullis is down, the
                    drawbridge is up and there are pirhanas in that moat.

                    Mflmph.

                    Jehanne
                  • Joan Hall
                    Allow me to teach you my mantra: [breathe in through the nose] he s a good man [breathe out through the mouth] and this will make him happy. Joan the Harper
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                      Allow me to teach you my mantra:

                      [breathe in through the nose] he's a good man
                      [breathe out through the mouth] and this will make him
                      happy.

                      Joan the Harper

                      --- wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

                      > Wait a minute, this is the outfit he bought all by
                      > himself. Without
                      > consulting you. And now HE wants -
                      >
                      > No. Comment. Not. Going. There. The portcullis is
                      > down, the
                      > drawbridge is up and there are pirhanas in that
                      > moat.
                      >
                      > Mflmph.
                      >
                      > Jehanne
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      =====
                      "And she'd had lucky eyes and a high heart, and wisdom that caught fire, at need, like the dried flax and made her beautiful and fierce, sudden and laughing."
                      [My favorite line of poetry in the world, from Yeats' "The Old Age of Queen Maeve."]

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      Yahoo! Mail Plus � Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
                      http://mailplus.yahoo.com
                    • Joan Hall
                      ... I appreciate the offer of help, but I just don t think I can face making a corset. Anything else -- I m a good seamstress - have even done it for $$. But
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                        --- marshamclean@... wrote:
                        > I would be happy to help, should you require any. I
                        > have been doing Elizabethan corsetry for 18 years
                        > now, as designing Elizabethan costume since grade
                        > school.
                        >
                        > Madinia

                        I appreciate the offer of help, but I just don't think
                        I can face making a corset. Anything else -- I'm a
                        good seamstress - have even done it for $$. But I'm
                        not sure I can face the corset project. I once bought
                        Margo Anderson's Elizabethan Underpinnings pattern and
                        it was in a totebag of mine that got stolen before the
                        pattern envelope had even been opened! I should maybe
                        get it again...

                        Joan the Harper


                        =====
                        "And she'd had lucky eyes and a high heart, and wisdom that caught fire, at need, like the dried flax and made her beautiful and fierce, sudden and laughing."
                        [My favorite line of poetry in the world, from Yeats' "The Old Age of Queen Maeve."]

                        __________________________________________________
                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        Yahoo! Mail Plus � Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
                        http://mailplus.yahoo.com
                      • Generys ferch Ednuyed
                        Oooh, that is a good one... esp when my man, who has **really** nice legs keeps refusing to wear tights... :-( (All I want is 12th night with him in a short
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                          Oooh, that is a good one... esp when my man, who has **really** nice legs
                          keeps refusing to wear tights... :-( (All I want is 12th night with him in
                          a short pourpoint to match my Burgundian... but no... so I'm stuck doing
                          Phillip the Good for him... <sigh>)

                          Generys
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Joan Hall" <joan_the_harpist1119@...>
                          To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 11:38 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Dragged kicking & screaming into 16th C!


                          > Allow me to teach you my mantra:
                          >
                          > [breathe in through the nose] he's a good man
                          > [breathe out through the mouth] and this will make him
                          > happy.
                          >
                          > Joan the Harper
                          >
                          > --- wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Wait a minute, this is the outfit he bought all by
                          > > himself. Without
                          > > consulting you. And now HE wants -
                          > >
                          > > No. Comment. Not. Going. There. The portcullis is
                          > > down, the
                          > > drawbridge is up and there are pirhanas in that
                          > > moat.
                          > >
                          > > Mflmph.
                          > >
                          > > Jehanne
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > =====
                          > "And she'd had lucky eyes and a high heart, and wisdom that caught fire,
                          at need, like the dried flax and made her beautiful and fierce, sudden and
                          laughing."
                          > [My favorite line of poetry in the world, from Yeats' "The Old Age of
                          Queen Maeve."]
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________
                          > Do you Yahoo!?
                          > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
                          > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
                          >
                          > ----------------------------------------------------
                          > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • wodeford
                          ... One option is an Irish dress and leine which resemble garments drawn and painted by Lucas De Heere.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Joan Hall <joan_the_harpist1119@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > I appreciate the offer of help, but I just don't think
                            > I can face making a corset. Anything else -- I'm a
                            > good seamstress - have even done it for $$. But I'm
                            > not sure I can face the corset project. I once bought
                            > Margo Anderson's Elizabethan Underpinnings pattern and
                            > it was in a totebag of mine that got stolen before the
                            > pattern envelope had even been opened! I should maybe
                            > get it again...

                            One option is an Irish dress and leine which resemble garments drawn
                            and painted by Lucas De Heere.
                            (http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/oneills/clothing.html)

                            http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/oneills/ and
                            http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/oneills/gallery.html show some
                            shots of Kass's Irish dress, which is basically a four panel
                            cotehardie with an open front and a laced bodice. (She's used
                            eyelets, mine laces around buttons.)

                            See what you think,
                            Jehanne
                          • Kirrily Robert
                            ... I can understand. I do the stiffened bodice kind of Elizabethan, and works OK for me. My stiffening is usually a 2-layer lining of a medium-to-heavy
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                              Joan wrote:
                              > I appreciate the offer of help, but I just don't think
                              > I can face making a corset. Anything else -- I'm a
                              > good seamstress - have even done it for $$. But I'm
                              > not sure I can face the corset project. I once bought
                              > Margo Anderson's Elizabethan Underpinnings pattern and
                              > it was in a totebag of mine that got stolen before the
                              > pattern envelope had even been opened! I should maybe
                              > get it again...

                              I can understand. I do the "stiffened bodice" kind of Elizabethan, and
                              works OK for me. My stiffening is usually a 2-layer lining of a
                              medium-to-heavy fabric (cotton drill, denim, canvas, etc) with 2 to 4
                              metal bones in the front and more along the lacing edges. The lightest
                              petticoat I have has nothing but plastic boning along the lacing edges,
                              but I usually wear it under my flemish so it shouldn't need anything
                              else. Others I have include one with a single line of boning along
                              each side of the front closure, and side-lacing ones with 3 or 4 bones
                              in the front. And of course my loose kirtles have no boning anywhere,
                              and they're *so* comfy :)

                              One point to note is that if you want to avoid heavy boning and
                              corsetry, don't make your bodice too pointed at the front waist. A deep
                              point needs *serious* engineering to avoid bending when you sit down.
                              My ones have only a slight curve to them.

                              Also, I'm a largish build with a DD cup, and I don't have any support
                              problems with these garments... but then, I don't like heavy support
                              even mundanely.

                              Yours,

                              Katherine

                              --
                              Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
                              katherine@... http://infotrope.net/sca/
                              Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
                              "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
                            • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                              Generys has a good thought going there Joan. You do this for him, you have the right to require him to dress matching something of yours. *grin* SMiles,
                              Message 14 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                Generys has a good thought going there Joan. You do this for him, you have
                                the right to require him to dress matching something of yours. *grin*

                                SMiles,
                                Despina
                              • Talia
                                If anyone has any references, pix, whatever for umbrellas within the SCA time-frame, please share? TIA Talia
                                Message 15 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                  If anyone has any references, pix, whatever for umbrellas within the SCA
                                  time-frame, please share? TIA

                                  Talia
                                • Stephen Bergdahl
                                  ... This my mantra on the subject of my wife and later period clothes. (Breath in though the nose) If she wants to wear unperiod wench garb, instead of the
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                    Joan Hall wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Allow me to teach you my mantra:
                                    >
                                    > [breathe in through the nose] he's a good man
                                    > [breathe out through the mouth] and this will make him
                                    > happy.
                                    >
                                    > Joan the Harper

                                    This my mantra on the subject of my wife and later period clothes.

                                    (Breath in though the nose) If she wants to wear unperiod wench garb,
                                    instead of the nice period wool noble I made her that is her choice.
                                    (Breath out through the mouth) AGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                    --
                                    Lord Vich
                                    www.2xtreme.net/madly/Home_Page.htm

                                    Instructor for www.costumeclassroom.com
                                    Elizabethan Era Clothing and Underpinnings
                                    Online Classes in Historical and Modern Sewing
                                  • Joan Hall
                                    ... I m just curious - does she accessorize it with a big sandwich sign reading I m Stephen Bergdahl s wife ?? ;-) Joan the Harper ===== And she d had
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                      --- Stephen Bergdahl <madly@...> wrote:
                                      > This my mantra on the subject of my wife and later
                                      > period clothes.
                                      >
                                      > (Breath in though the nose) If she wants to wear
                                      > unperiod wench garb,
                                      > instead of the nice period wool noble I made her
                                      > that is her choice.
                                      > (Breath out through the mouth)
                                      > AGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                      I'm just curious - does she accessorize it with a big
                                      "sandwich" sign reading "I'm Stephen Bergdahl's wife"
                                      ?? ;-)

                                      Joan the Harper

                                      =====
                                      "And she'd had lucky eyes and a high heart, and wisdom that caught fire, at need, like the dried flax and made her beautiful and fierce, sudden and laughing."
                                      [My favorite line of poetry in the world, from Yeats' "The Old Age of Queen Maeve."]

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                                    • wodeford
                                      ... garb, ... You people are too nice. My mantra is: He has to sleep some time. Jehanne
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Stephen Bergdahl <madly@2...> wrote:
                                        > This my mantra on the subject of my wife and later period clothes.
                                        >
                                        > (Breath in though the nose) If she wants to wear unperiod wench
                                        garb,
                                        > instead of the nice period wool noble I made her that is her choice.
                                        > (Breath out through the mouth) AGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                        You people are too nice. My mantra is:

                                        "He has to sleep some time."

                                        Jehanne
                                      • Joan Hall
                                        ... Ah...that just happens to be my financial mantra! ;-) Joan the Harper ===== And she d had lucky eyes and a high heart, and wisdom that caught fire, at
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                          --- wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
                                          > You people are too nice. My mantra is:
                                          > "He has to sleep some time."

                                          Ah...that just happens to be my financial mantra! ;-)

                                          Joan the Harper

                                          =====
                                          "And she'd had lucky eyes and a high heart, and wisdom that caught fire, at need, like the dried flax and made her beautiful and fierce, sudden and laughing."
                                          [My favorite line of poetry in the world, from Yeats' "The Old Age of Queen Maeve."]

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                                        • Talia
                                          Better yet, mine is: You want to sleep on the couch? Talia ... From: wodeford [mailto:wodeford@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:19 PM To:
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                            Better yet, mine is:

                                            "You want to sleep on the couch?"

                                            Talia

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: wodeford [mailto:wodeford@...]
                                            Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:19 PM
                                            To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Mantras, was Re: Dragged kicking & screaming
                                            into 16th C!


                                            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Stephen Bergdahl <madly@2...> wrote:
                                            > This my mantra on the subject of my wife and later period clothes.
                                            >
                                            > (Breath in though the nose) If she wants to wear unperiod wench
                                            garb,
                                            > instead of the nice period wool noble I made her that is her choice.
                                            > (Breath out through the mouth) AGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                            You people are too nice. My mantra is:

                                            "He has to sleep some time."

                                            Jehanne


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                                          • wodeford
                                            ... If anyone attended Mists Investiture last week and managed to get a glimpse of him without a herald s tabard, Gaius was wearing the tunic and surcote I
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                              --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Joan Hall <joan_the_harpist1119@y...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- wodeford <wodeford@y...> wrote:
                                              > > You people are too nice. My mantra is:
                                              > > "He has to sleep some time."

                                              If anyone attended Mists Investiture last week and managed to get a
                                              glimpse of him without a herald's tabard, Gaius was wearing the tunic
                                              and surcote I made him - and looked darned spiffy if I do say so
                                              myself.

                                              Jehanne
                                            • Stephen Bergdahl
                                              ... It s a case of if she can pretend we are not married when I wear my Harry Mud suit, then I can pretend we are not married when she is in the Purple
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                                Joan Hall wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I'm just curious - does she accessorize it with a big
                                                > "sandwich" sign reading "I'm Stephen Bergdahl's wife"
                                                > ?? ;-)
                                                >
                                                > Joan the Harper

                                                It's a case of if she can pretend we are not married when I wear my
                                                "Harry Mud" suit, then I can pretend we are not married when she is in
                                                the "Purple Slut".

                                                Lord Vich
                                                www.2xtreme.net/madly/Home_Page.htm

                                                Instructor for www.costumeclassroom.com
                                                Elizabethan Era Clothing and Underpinnings
                                                Online Classes in Historical and Modern Sewing
                                              • Jennifer Thompson
                                                There really are other options for late-period costume that doesn t require a corset! Forgive me if somebody has already mentioned this, but why don t you try
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                                  There really are other options for late-period costume that
                                                  doesn't require a corset! Forgive me if somebody has already
                                                  mentioned this, but why don't you try a nice kirtle and surcoat?
                                                  They are very loose and easy to wear, and no corset is required.
                                                  Actually lots of re-enactors make this sort of thing for maternity
                                                  wear. Lynn McMasters has made two really gorgeous ones:
                                                  http://lynnmcmasters.com/surcoat2.html
                                                  http://lynnmcmasters.com/surcoat.html

                                                  There are several other nice examples online, and some good
                                                  resources availible if you want to make this sort of outfit. I've
                                                  heard that Margo Anderson is even going to make a pattern for a
                                                  kirtle and surcoat in the next year or so. Let me know if you are
                                                  interested in getting more links.

                                                  -jen



                                                  > Yes, there is an actual question and I'm getting to
                                                  > it!
                                                  > If I am to leave my beloved 12th century and create
                                                  > one (and only one) set of 16th c. garb, AND if this
                                                  > garb is merchant-y rather than noble-y, must there be
                                                  > a corset plus a bodice? Could I get away with a
                                                  > back-laced bodice that has a busk in it? Could I get
                                                  > away with no busk-y corset-y stuff at all? I don't
                                                  > want to do an all-out peasant outfit because I dont'
                                                  > want to be taken for his wife's maid instead of his
                                                  > wife!
                                                  >
                                                  > Joan the Harper
                                                • Jennifer Thompson
                                                  Venetian illustration from 1548, found in Storia della Costume in Italia : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/files/umbrella.jpg The text that went
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                                    Venetian illustration from 1548, found in "Storia della Costume
                                                    in Italia":
                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/files/umbrella.jpg

                                                    The text that went went it said (my translation):
                                                    "The use of the umbrella spread in the 16th century, to be used
                                                    to shield oneself from the sun especially when traveling on
                                                    horseback. Here it looks strange but only in contrast with the
                                                    steel armor, which would become red-hot from the sun in the
                                                    long parades before the joust. Montaigne however complains
                                                    about the weight of the umbrellas from the large spokes and
                                                    handles of wood, here clearly visible, that caused the
                                                    inconvenience of carrying them to equal to the benefit of
                                                    shielding oneself from the sun."

                                                    Illustrations from 1595 found in "Album Amicorum of a German
                                                    Soldier." Text on page reads: "In This Manner They Ride in the
                                                    Summer in Italy":
                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/files/umbrella2.jp
                                                    g (you may have to cut and paste the address)

                                                    -jen




                                                    > If anyone has any references, pix, whatever for umbrellas
                                                    within the SCA
                                                    > time-frame, please share? TIA
                                                    >
                                                    > Talia
                                                  • Monica vvv
                                                    ... Assuming I get the scanner working tonight.. I have a book that has a picture of an early english umbrella in period. I want to say 14th century. It s a
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                                      > If anyone has any references, pix, whatever for
                                                      > umbrellas within the SCA time-frame, please share?
                                                      > TIA
                                                      >
                                                      > Talia


                                                      Assuming I get the scanner working tonight.. I have a
                                                      book that has a picture of an early english umbrella
                                                      in period. I want to say 14th century. It's a bit
                                                      different than our current umbrellas... it's shapped
                                                      like this:

                                                      /-----\
                                                      / \
                                                      / \
                                                      /---------------------\
                                                      \
                                                      \
                                                      \
                                                      \
                                                      \
                                                      \
                                                      \

                                                      From what I remember about the picture.. it seems to
                                                      me that the handle was set so that a servant could
                                                      hold it over his Lord or Lady.

                                                      Will find reference tonight.

                                                      Sylvie

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                                                    • Talia
                                                      Thank you! Talia ... From: Jennifer Thompson [mailto:blue_jefiner@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:30 PM To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Nov 21, 2002
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                                                        Thank you!

                                                        Talia

                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: Jennifer Thompson [mailto:blue_jefiner@...]
                                                        Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:30 PM
                                                        To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Umbrellas/parasols


                                                        Venetian illustration from 1548, found in "Storia della Costume
                                                        in Italia":
                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/files/umbrella.jpg

                                                        The text that went went it said (my translation):
                                                        "The use of the umbrella spread in the 16th century, to be used
                                                        to shield oneself from the sun especially when traveling on
                                                        horseback. Here it looks strange but only in contrast with the
                                                        steel armor, which would become red-hot from the sun in the
                                                        long parades before the joust. Montaigne however complains
                                                        about the weight of the umbrellas from the large spokes and
                                                        handles of wood, here clearly visible, that caused the
                                                        inconvenience of carrying them to equal to the benefit of
                                                        shielding oneself from the sun."

                                                        Illustrations from 1595 found in "Album Amicorum of a German
                                                        Soldier." Text on page reads: "In This Manner They Ride in the
                                                        Summer in Italy":
                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/files/umbrella2.jp
                                                        g (you may have to cut and paste the address)

                                                        -jen




                                                        > If anyone has any references, pix, whatever for umbrellas
                                                        within the SCA
                                                        > time-frame, please share? TIA
                                                        >
                                                        > Talia



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                                                      • Monica vvv
                                                        Ok, Got the scanner working. Pic of Anglo Saxon umbrella is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/files/Sylvie%27s/umbrella.JPG It s a line drawing
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Nov 22, 2002
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                                                          Ok, Got the scanner working.

                                                          Pic of Anglo Saxon umbrella is here:

                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/files/Sylvie%27s/umbrella.JPG

                                                          It's a line drawing from _British Costume: From
                                                          Earliest Times to 1820_ by Mrs. Charles H. Ashdown
                                                          pub: 1910 of "Harl. MS. 603". It's in the section
                                                          from 460 CE to 1066 CE.

                                                          Sylvie

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                                                        • Talia
                                                          I m looking for examples of decorative book covers in leather or wood from 14th century Western Europe. Does anyone have any good links online for such? TIA
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Nov 29, 2002
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                                                            I'm looking for examples of decorative book covers in leather or wood from
                                                            14th century Western Europe. Does anyone have any good links online for
                                                            such? TIA

                                                            Talia
                                                          • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                                                            ... http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/medievalbook/leather_chains/Flap_Binding.htm http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/medievalbook/leather_chains/Metal.htm
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Dec 3, 2002
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                                                              At 10:24 PM 11/29/2002 -0600, you wrote:
                                                              >I'm looking for examples of decorative book covers in leather or wood from
                                                              >14th century Western Europe. Does anyone have any good links online for
                                                              >such?

                                                              http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/medievalbook/leather_chains/Flap_Binding.htm

                                                              http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/medievalbook/leather_chains/Metal.htm

                                                              http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/5/5.8/ has a large collection

                                                              http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/medievalbook/leather_chains/Chained_Binding.htm

                                                              There are some wonderful books available with pictures as well, you might
                                                              try doing a search for them online and then ILL some of them.

                                                              Smiles,
                                                              Despina de la I hope this helps
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