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Re: [Authentic_SCA] good source for medieval rounds

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  • Greg Lindahl
    ... Margareta, I d be pretty surprised if you actually sing the original tune today. You can hear me singing it with myself at:
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 1, 2002
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      On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 07:36:29PM -0500, Melaena wrote:

      > Um, no it's not a different tune than we know today, at least not in my
      > book.

      Margareta,

      I'd be pretty surprised if you actually sing the original tune today.

      You can hear me singing it with myself at:

      http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ravenscroft/songbook/

      -- Gregory Blount
    • Talia Margherita
      I wish to make some masques...anyone know offhand if papier-mache is a documentable medium in which to do this? Thanks in advance. Talia
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 1, 2002
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        I wish to make some masques...anyone know offhand if papier-mache is a documentable medium in which to do this? Thanks in advance.
         
        Talia
      • rose@santiagosmagic.com
        It depends on what kind of masks you want to make. Theatrical masks, especially for the chorus, were usually made of cardboard or papier mache. They had to be
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 1, 2002
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          It depends on what kind of masks you want to make. Theatrical masks,
          especially for the chorus, were usually made of cardboard or papier mache.
          They had to be produced quickly, cheaply and in bulk. Fabric and felt masks
          were also common.

          Leather masks are more durable, and more difficult to produce. They're not
          disposable, so they wouldn't invest the time and money into making one that
          wasn't going to be worn frequently, i.e., for commedia performances.

          Unfortunately, the big, flashy, sequined and feathered Mardi Gras confections
          don't start showing up until the mid- to late 17th century.

          The problem is you're going to find lots and lots of references to masks in
          theater and ritual, and plenty of laws banning them. In certain times and
          locations, it was illegal to wear a mask around Christmas, because (supposedly)
          the anonymity increased criminal activity. So while you'll be able to find
          mention of masks, there is really very little pictoral evidence to know what
          the masks looked like or how they were made, or even written descriptions.
          Most of the surviving masks from our period are ritual items -- animal totems
          and grotesques. There is one slightly-post period Arlecchino mask still in
          existence.

          To generalize, if you're looking for earlier period, northern European masks,
          you're looking at masks made of fabric, fur or felt, and usually an animal or
          monster face. If you're looking at later period, southern European, you're
          looking at paper or molded leather, and more human-looking faces.

          Let me know if I can be more help,
          Rose


          Quoting Talia Margherita <khanson@...>:

          > I wish to make some masques...anyone know offhand if papier-mache is a
          > documentable medium in which to do this? Thanks in advance.
          >
          > Talia
          >




          -=-=-=-

          food. shelter. clothing. net. Got.net - The Internet Connection, Inc
        • Melaena
          This is exactly the same version I have. Except for two or three notes, this is also exactly the same version I learned when I was a child. And two or three
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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            This is exactly the same version I have.

            Except for two or three notes, this is also exactly the same version I
            learned when I was a child. And two or three notes does not, in my opinion,
            constitute a "different tune", to me it is merely a "variation".

            Which of course abounded during the Middle Ages and throughout folk music
            today.

            Margareta

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Kirrily Robert" <skud@...>
            To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 8:52 PM
            Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] good source for medieval rounds


            > In lists.sca.authentic.authentic-sca, you wrote:
            > > Um, no it's not a different tune than we know today, at least not in my
            > > book.
            > >
            > > The words are slightly different.
            >
            > Here it is in Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia, 1609:
            > http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ravenscroft/deuteromelia/deut_20small.gif
            > (you have to scroll down a bit to get to it)
            >
            > It has elements of the same tune, but it's not the same tune, if you
            > know what I mean.
            >
            > Is that the same version you have?
            >
            > Yours,
            >
            > Katherine
            >
            > --
            > Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
            > katherine@... http://infotrope.net/sca/
            > Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
            > "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
            >
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------
            > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
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          • Melaena
            Hi....... I think you might have me confused with someone else. Hope you find her! Margareta vanden Velde Montengarde, Avacal, An Tir formerly of Roxbury
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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              Hi.......

              I think you might have me confused with someone else. Hope you find her!

              Margareta vanden Velde
              Montengarde, Avacal, An Tir

              formerly of Roxbury Mill, Atlantia

              formerly of Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Carolle M Cox" <hpockets@...>
              To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 8:45 PM
              Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] good source for medieval rounds


              > You may be the Gentle i'm looking for! Searching for honest to goodness
              > Medieval Italian (Venetian) cds. Also some drumming ones. Anything ring
              a
              > bell? Your notes are wonderful, btw. Now i'm sorrier than ever than i
              > cannot attend but one 'big' event a year . . . .
              >
              > Gerita
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Melaena" <melaena1@...>
              > To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:36 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] good source for medieval rounds
              >
              >
              > > Um, no it's not a different tune than we know today, at least not in my
              > > book.
              > >
              > > The words are slightly different.
              > >
              > > Margareta
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Kirrily Robert" <skud@...>
              > > To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 10:01 AM
              > > Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] good source for medieval rounds
              > >
              > >
              > > > Melaena wrote:
              > > > > Trivia for the day: Three Blind Mice is apparently a period
              > round.
              > > > > Hands, everyone that knew that! I didn't.
              > > >
              > > > *raises her hand*
              > > >
              > > > It's quite a different tune to the one we know today, though.
              > > >
              > > > I'm running a class on rounds for the Known World Bardic and Cooks
              > > > Symposium in a few weeks... I just put my class notes online at
              > > > http://infotrope.net/sca/music/rounds.html if anyone's interested.
              > > >
              > > > Yours,
              > > >
              > > > Katherine
              > > >
              > > > --
              > > > Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
              > > > katherine@... http://infotrope.net/sca/
              > > > Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
              > > > "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
              > > >
              > > >
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            • Kirrily Robert
              ... Wow, really? The one I learnt as a kid went: Three blind mice, three blind mice See how they run, see how they run They all ran up to the farmer s wife
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                Margareta wrote:
                > This is exactly the same version I have.
                >
                > Except for two or three notes, this is also exactly the same version I
                > learned when I was a child. And two or three notes does not, in my opinion,
                > constitute a "different tune", to me it is merely a "variation".
                >
                > Which of course abounded during the Middle Ages and throughout folk music
                > today.

                Wow, really? The one I learnt as a kid went:

                Three blind mice, three blind mice
                See how they run, see how they run
                They all ran up to the farmer's wife
                She cut off their tails with a carving knife
                Did you ever see such a thing in your life
                As three blind mice

                I think it's really cool that you learnt the older version at school!

                Yours,

                Katherine

                --
                Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
                katherine@... http://infotrope.net/sca/
                Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
                "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
              • Melaena
                Katherine, I said that the words I learned were different but the TUNE I learned was almost the same. Those are in fact the same words I learned in school.
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                  Katherine, I said that the words I learned were different but the TUNE I
                  learned was almost the same.

                  Those are in fact the same words I learned in school.

                  Margareta


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Kirrily Robert" <skud@...>
                  To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 10:20 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] good source for medieval rounds


                  > Margareta wrote:
                  > > This is exactly the same version I have.
                  > >
                  > > Except for two or three notes, this is also exactly the same version I
                  > > learned when I was a child. And two or three notes does not, in my
                  opinion,
                  > > constitute a "different tune", to me it is merely a "variation".
                  > >
                  > > Which of course abounded during the Middle Ages and throughout folk
                  music
                  > > today.
                  >
                  > Wow, really? The one I learnt as a kid went:
                  >
                  > Three blind mice, three blind mice
                  > See how they run, see how they run
                  > They all ran up to the farmer's wife
                  > She cut off their tails with a carving knife
                  > Did you ever see such a thing in your life
                  > As three blind mice
                  >
                  > I think it's really cool that you learnt the older version at school!
                  >
                  > Yours,
                  >
                  > Katherine
                  >
                  > --
                  > Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
                  > katherine@... http://infotrope.net/sca/
                  > Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
                  > "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
                  >
                  >
                  > ----------------------------------------------------
                  > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Cindy
                  ... I d like more info. Alfred and I have volunteered to have some children s activities for the Baroness s Masked Ball in Dec. I d love some references or
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: rose@...
                    >
                    > To generalize, if you're looking for earlier period, northern
                    > European masks,
                    > you're looking at masks made of fabric, fur or felt, and
                    > usually an animal or
                    > monster face. If you're looking at later period, southern
                    > European, you're
                    > looking at paper or molded leather, and more human-looking faces.
                    >
                    > Let me know if I can be more help,
                    > Rose
                    >
                    >
                    > Quoting Talia Margherita <khanson@...>:
                    >
                    > > I wish to make some masques...anyone know offhand if
                    > papier-mache is
                    > > a documentable medium in which to do this? Thanks in advance.
                    > >
                    > > Talia
                    > >
                    >
                    I'd like more info. Alfred and I have volunteered to have some
                    children's activities for the Baroness's Masked Ball in Dec. I'd love
                    some references or ideas. I have no idea how many children will be
                    there - the ones I do know range from 2.5 - 7 so we're looking at
                    younger children. Since it's Baron Wilhelm and Baroness Elizabeth's
                    last event as reigning B&B, we figure there will be lots of people there
                    so I don't know how much space we will have.

                    Adelheid
                  • Dianne and Greg Stucki
                    That s the one I learned, too. Really rather gruesome, isn t it? Laurensa ... From: Kirrily Robert To:
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                      That's the one I learned, too. Really rather gruesome, isn't it?

                      Laurensa
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Kirrily Robert" <skud@...>
                      To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 11:20 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] good source for medieval rounds


                      > Margareta wrote:
                      > > This is exactly the same version I have.
                      > >
                      > > Except for two or three notes, this is also exactly the same version I
                      > > learned when I was a child. And two or three notes does not, in my
                      opinion,
                      > > constitute a "different tune", to me it is merely a "variation".
                      > >
                      > > Which of course abounded during the Middle Ages and throughout folk
                      music
                      > > today.
                      >
                      > Wow, really? The one I learnt as a kid went:
                      >
                      > Three blind mice, three blind mice
                      > See how they run, see how they run
                      > They all ran up to the farmer's wife
                      > She cut off their tails with a carving knife
                      > Did you ever see such a thing in your life
                      > As three blind mice
                      >
                      > I think it's really cool that you learnt the older version at school!
                      >
                      > Yours,
                      >
                      > Katherine
                      >
                      > --
                      > Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
                      > katherine@... http://infotrope.net/sca/
                      > Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
                      > "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
                      >
                      >
                      > ----------------------------------------------------
                      > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Dianne and Greg Stucki
                      I d love ANY infor on activities to do with the very young kids at events. I d gladly help run children s activities, just so my own could participate!
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                        I'd love ANY infor on activities to do with the very young kids at events.
                        I'd gladly help run children's activities, just so my own could participate!

                        Laurensa
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Cindy" <crma@...>
                        To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 3:15 PM
                        Subject: RE: [Authentic_SCA] Papier-mache?


                        >
                        >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: rose@...
                        > >
                        > > To generalize, if you're looking for earlier period, northern
                        > > European masks,
                        > > you're looking at masks made of fabric, fur or felt, and
                        > > usually an animal or
                        > > monster face. If you're looking at later period, southern
                        > > European, you're
                        > > looking at paper or molded leather, and more human-looking faces.
                        > >
                        > > Let me know if I can be more help,
                        > > Rose
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Quoting Talia Margherita <khanson@...>:
                        > >
                        > > > I wish to make some masques...anyone know offhand if
                        > > papier-mache is
                        > > > a documentable medium in which to do this? Thanks in advance.
                        > > >
                        > > > Talia
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > I'd like more info. Alfred and I have volunteered to have some
                        > children's activities for the Baroness's Masked Ball in Dec. I'd love
                        > some references or ideas. I have no idea how many children will be
                        > there - the ones I do know range from 2.5 - 7 so we're looking at
                        > younger children. Since it's Baron Wilhelm and Baroness Elizabeth's
                        > last event as reigning B&B, we figure there will be lots of people there
                        > so I don't know how much space we will have.
                        >
                        > Adelheid
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----------------------------------------------------
                        > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Kirrily Robert
                        ... Uh, they don t fit together as I read it... but perhaps I m just being thick. Anyway, we ve probably had enough of this thread by now, haven t we? Yours,
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                          In lists.sca.authentic.authentic-sca, you wrote:
                          > Katherine, I said that the words I learned were different but the TUNE I
                          > learned was almost the same.
                          >
                          > Those are in fact the same words I learned in school.

                          Uh, they don't fit together as I read it... but perhaps I'm just being
                          thick. Anyway, we've probably had enough of this thread by now, haven't
                          we?

                          Yours,

                          Katherine

                          --
                          Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
                          katherine@... http://infotrope.net/sca/
                          Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
                          "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
                        • rose@santiagosmagic.com
                          You re going to be in that little school again, I think, so don t expect to have a whole lot of room. I d recommend hitting the day-after-Halloween sale and
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                            You're going to be in that little school again, I think, so don't expect to
                            have a whole lot of room.

                            I'd recommend hitting the day-after-Halloween sale and buying up bunches of
                            mask blanks. You can collect bits of fabric and fur for decorating, and get
                            little bottles of Elmers Glue. You could try doing papier mache or plaster
                            bandage, but they're both messy and there'd be no guarantee the masks would be
                            dry and wearable by evening.

                            We did this as an all-day workshop at kingdom A&S this summer, and just charged
                            everybody $2 to come in and make up their own mask. It was such a hit, that we
                            were cutting extra mask blanks out of paper plates just to have enough to go
                            around.

                            I have also found some references to period masks made of buckram, but so far I
                            haven't had good results when I've tried it. More experimentation is required.

                            Rose

                            Quoting Cindy <crma@...>:
                            > I'd like more info. Alfred and I have volunteered to have some
                            > children's activities for the Baroness's Masked Ball in Dec. I'd love
                            > some references or ideas. I have no idea how many children will be
                            > there - the ones I do know range from 2.5 - 7 so we're looking at
                            > younger children. Since it's Baron Wilhelm and Baroness Elizabeth's
                            > last event as reigning B&B, we figure there will be lots of people there
                            > so I don't know how much space we will have.
                            >
                            > Adelheid


                            -=-=-=-

                            food. shelter. clothing. net. Got.net - The Internet Connection, Inc
                          • Jenn Ridley
                            ... If you re going to use the plastic mask blanks, don t use Elmer s. Use a craft glue (JoAnn s makes one, Aleene s Tacky glue is another). Elmer s is fine
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                              On Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:02:28 -0700, rose@... wrote:

                              >You're going to be in that little school again, I think, so don't expect to
                              >have a whole lot of room.
                              >
                              >I'd recommend hitting the day-after-Halloween sale and buying up bunches of
                              >mask blanks. You can collect bits of fabric and fur for decorating, and get
                              >little bottles of Elmers Glue.

                              If you're going to use the plastic mask blanks, don't use Elmer's.
                              Use a craft glue (JoAnn's makes one, Aleene's Tacky glue is another).
                              Elmer's is fine for paper, but it doesn't have enough tack to *hold*
                              things onto a plastic mask....

                              jenn
                              --
                              Jenn Ridley
                              jridley@...
                            • wodeford
                              ... Just wanted to mention that the modern tune for Three Blind Mice was used as theme music for the Three Stooges. Nyuk nyuk nyuk. Jehanne
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                                --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Kirrily Robert <skud@i...> wrote:
                                > Anyway, we've probably had enough of this thread by now, haven't
                                > we?

                                Just wanted to mention that the modern tune for "Three Blind Mice"
                                was used as theme music for the Three Stooges. Nyuk nyuk nyuk.

                                Jehanne
                              • borderlands15213
                                Laurensa, Hasn t your kingdom, which for some reason sticks in my mind as being East (sorry if I ve got that wrong!), a Children s Ministry? Your Kingdom
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                                  Laurensa,
                                  Hasn't your kingdom, which for some reason sticks in my mind as being
                                  East (sorry if I've got that wrong!), a Children's Ministry? Your
                                  Kingdom Minister of Children should be able to give you some info, or
                                  refer you to your regional minister, no?
                                  I vaguely, dimly recall a request being made at local meetings for
                                  gentles to contribute shoe boxes, which were to be used as bricks or
                                  stones to make a castle or fort (to my local MoC: ***really*** sorry
                                  if I'm misremembering!! Forgive me!) during one event. Mmm, think
                                  they had to be painted, or covered in paper or something. I more
                                  clearly recall working with children at one demo, where they were
                                  able to make hand puppets or small dolls, dressing them (very, very
                                  approximately, believe me, usually gluing the pieces of "clothing" on
                                  with Elmer's *school* glue or a fabric glue) in more or less 'period'
                                  styles. One young lady did me the honor of dressing her little
                                  poppet in her interpretation of my garb. Sorry I can't recall how
                                  the heads were made, but I seem to remember they were just a piece of
                                  cloth stuffed with fabric scraps and tied off, wrapping the cord to
                                  make a neck.
                                  I very clearly recall being at Red Dragon, an annual event in
                                  Tirnewydd here in the Middle, when the children made a dragon, like
                                  the Chinese dragons seen at Chinese New Year's celebrations. This
                                  dragon was red, of course, and the kids got under its body and
                                  paraded it all around the site, with drums and cymbals going
                                  before.... I hope they had fun with it, because it was great for the
                                  adults who were watching!
                                  I know our own local Minister of Children is on list, and I'm
                                  guessing isn't the only MoC here, so perhaps one of those individuals
                                  who has had lots of good experiences in planning and directing
                                  Children's Activities, will be kind enough to share some suggestions,
                                  especially more meritorious ones....

                                  Yseult




                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Dianne and Greg Stucki" <goofy1@s...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > I'd love ANY infor on activities to do with the very young kids at
                                  events.
                                  > I'd gladly help run children's activities, just so my own could
                                  participate!
                                  >
                                  > Laurensa
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: "Cindy" <crma@i...>
                                  > To: <Authentic_SCA@y...>
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 3:15 PM
                                  > Subject: RE: [Authentic_SCA] Papier-mache?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > From: rose@s...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To generalize, if you're looking for earlier period, northern
                                  > > > European masks,
                                  > > > you're looking at masks made of fabric, fur or felt, and
                                  > > > usually an animal or
                                  > > > monster face. If you're looking at later period, southern
                                  > > > European, you're
                                  > > > looking at paper or molded leather, and more human-looking
                                  faces.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Let me know if I can be more help,
                                  > > > Rose
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Quoting Talia Margherita <khanson@k...>:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > I wish to make some masques...anyone know offhand if
                                  > > > papier-mache is
                                  > > > > a documentable medium in which to do this? Thanks in advance.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Talia
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > I'd like more info. Alfred and I have volunteered to have some
                                  > > children's activities for the Baroness's Masked Ball in Dec. I'd
                                  love
                                  > > some references or ideas. I have no idea how many children will
                                  be
                                  > > there - the ones I do know range from 2.5 - 7 so we're looking at
                                  > > younger children. Since it's Baron Wilhelm and Baroness
                                  Elizabeth's
                                  > > last event as reigning B&B, we figure there will be lots of
                                  people there
                                  > > so I don't know how much space we will have.
                                  > >
                                  > > Adelheid
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
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                                  > >
                                • borderlands15213
                                  Oops, sorry! Apologies to the list if the activities recalled aren t correct for period! But the kids *did* seem to have had a good time from what I could
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Oops, sorry! Apologies to the list if the activities recalled aren't
                                    correct for period! But the kids *did* seem to have had a good time
                                    from what I could see.
                                    Yseult

                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Dianne and Greg Stucki" <goofy1@s...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > I'd love ANY infor on activities to do with the very young kids at
                                    events.
                                    > I'd gladly help run children's activities, just so my own could
                                    participate!
                                    >
                                    > Laurensa
                                    > ----- Original Message -----


                                    <<<snipped original message and earlier replies>>>
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