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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Tudor Details

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  • marshamclean@rogers.com
    Use trapezoidal gores, sewing them flat to the bodice all around the front; cartridge pleat them heavily for about 6 at the center back. Well, the back
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 1, 2002
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      To gore, or not to gore, that is the question...

      I know Tudor was the subject of discussion a few days ago, but I have
      some more questions. Thank you for all the interesting theories about
      bodices and corsetry in Tudor times, btw. I was inspired to sew a "pair
      of bodies" for under my Tudor gowns - a very lightly boned bodice, as
      opposed to the stiff Elizabethan corsets.

      Anyhow, my question: Would the overskirt on a Tudor gown be made of
      rectangles, or triangular gores? The Elizabethans I've consulted highly
      recommended cartridge pleating three rectangles onto a skirtband, not
      only for ease of construction, but they claim it's the "authentic" way
      to do it. However, they are Elizabethans, and aren't sure / haven't
      researched Tudor.

      Does anyone have documentation for either method? I've noticed it's
      common practice in the SCA to do the rectangle thing, but I want to see
      the source, and understand how it's "authentic."

      My persona is late Tudor, born in 1520, and since I'm nearly 23, my
      current fashion year would be 1543. I know we all like looking at
      pictures, so here are some links to what I'm using to get ideas:

      http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Mary_8.jpg - Mary I as a princess, 1544
      http://tudorhistory.org/jane/janegrey.jpg - Lady Jane Grey
      http://pweb.jps.net/~mcmasters1/tudor.html - A beautiful dress made by
      Lynn McMasters in the style I'm trying for.

      By the way, I should probably introduce myself. I've been lurking on the
      list since July, and have greatly enjoyed watching the discussions. It
      has me dreaming up all kinds of new projects, which of course, I don't
      have time for. This is my first year in the SCA, and I'm teaching myself
      to sew as I go. You can see my gowns on my web site:
      http://photos.ladybrooke.com/sca/index.html

      Farewell until our paths cross again,
      Adele de la Fontane





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    • Brooke Revere
      Thank you, Madinia. That makes sense. So the bodice and skirt would have been sewn together? Adele Fontane marshamclean@rogers.com wrote: Use trapezoidal
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 1, 2002
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        Thank you, Madinia. That makes sense. So the bodice and skirt would have been sewn together?

        Adele Fontane

        marshamclean@... wrote:

         Use trapezoidal gores, sewing them flat to the bodice all around the front; cartridge pleat them heavily for about 6" at the center back.  Well, the back cartridge pleats are used for some styles but not others.  Remember that you are aiming for the smoothest possible skirt in the front, adding the necessary fullness through the gores and the pleating.  Aim to have at least 100" in your hem, and the waist should be about double your waist measurement.

        To handle the very wide neck with no aparent shoulder straps, mae the back of the bodice very high and sew the sleeves directly to the bodice - there is no need for straps.

        Madinia
        >
        > From: Brooke Revere <WriteMe@...>
        > Date: 2002/10/01 Tue AM 02:36:15 EDT
        > To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Tudor Details
        >
        >
         


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        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.To gore, or not to gore, that is the question...

        I know Tudor was the subject of discussion a few days ago, but I have
        some more questions. Thank you for all the interesting theories about
        bodices and corsetry in Tudor times, btw. I was inspired to sew a "pair
        of bodies" for under my Tudor gowns - a very lightly boned bodice, as
        opposed to the stiff Elizabethan corsets.

        Anyhow, my question: Would the overskirt on a Tudor gown be made of
        rectangles, or triangular gores? The Elizabethans I've consulted highly
        recommended cartridge pleating three rectangles onto a skirtband, not
        only for ease of construction, but they claim it's the "authentic" way
        to do it. However, they are Elizabethans, and aren't sure / haven't
        researched Tudor.

        Does anyone have documentation for either method? I've noticed it's
        common practice in the SCA to do the rectangle thing, but I want to see
        the source, and understand how it's "authentic."

        My persona is late Tudor, born in 1520, and since I'm nearly 23, my
        current fashion year would be 1543. I know we all like looking at
        pictures, so here are some links to what I'm using to get ideas:

        http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Mary_8.jpg - Mary I as a princess, 1544
        http://tudorhistory.org/jane/janegrey.jpg - Lady Jane Grey
        http://pweb.jps.net/~mcmasters1/tudor.html - A beautiful dress made by
        Lynn McMasters in the style I'm trying for.

        By the way, I should probably introduce myself. I've been lurking on the
        list since July, and have greatly enjoyed watching the discussions. It
        has me dreaming up all kinds of new projects, which of course, I don't
        have time for. This is my first year in the SCA, and I'm teaching myself
        to sew as I go. You can see my gowns on my web site:
        http://photos.ladybrooke.com/sca/index.html

        Farewell until our paths cross again,
        Adele de la Fontane
         
         
         
         

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      • marshamclean@rogers.com
        Absolutely. Despite my and my apprentices best efforts over too long, we have found not one bit of reliable evidence supporting either seperate bodice/skirt
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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          Thank you, Madinia. That makes sense. So the bodice and skirt would have been sewn together?

          Adele Fontane

          marshamclean@... wrote:

           Use trapezoidal gores, sewing them flat to the bodice all around the front; cartridge pleat them heavily for about 6" at the center back.  Well, the back cartridge pleats are used for some styles but not others.  Remember that you are aiming for the smoothest possible skirt in the front, adding the necessary fullness through the gores and the pleating.  Aim to have at least 100" in your hem, and the waist should be about double your waist measurement.

          To handle the very wide neck with no aparent shoulder straps, mae the back of the bodice very high and sew the sleeves directly to the bodice - there is no need for straps.

          Madinia
          >
          > From: Brooke Revere <WriteMe@...>
          > Date: 2002/10/01 Tue AM 02:36:15 EDT
          > To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Tudor Details
          >
          >
           


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          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.To gore, or not to gore, that is the question...

          I know Tudor was the subject of discussion a few days ago, but I have
          some more questions. Thank you for all the interesting theories about
          bodices and corsetry in Tudor times, btw. I was inspired to sew a "pair
          of bodies" for under my Tudor gowns - a very lightly boned bodice, as
          opposed to the stiff Elizabethan corsets.

          Anyhow, my question: Would the overskirt on a Tudor gown be made of
          rectangles, or triangular gores? The Elizabethans I've consulted highly
          recommended cartridge pleating three rectangles onto a skirtband, not
          only for ease of construction, but they claim it's the "authentic" way
          to do it. However, they are Elizabethans, and aren't sure / haven't
          researched Tudor.

          Does anyone have documentation for either method? I've noticed it's
          common practice in the SCA to do the rectangle thing, but I want to see
          the source, and understand how it's "authentic."

          My persona is late Tudor, born in 1520, and since I'm nearly 23, my
          current fashion year would be 1543. I know we all like looking at
          pictures, so here are some links to what I'm using to get ideas:

          http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Mary_8.jpg - Mary I as a princess, 1544
          http://tudorhistory.org/jane/janegrey.jpg - Lady Jane Grey
          http://pweb.jps.net/~mcmasters1/tudor.html - A beautiful dress made by
          Lynn McMasters in the style I'm trying for.

          By the way, I should probably introduce myself. I've been lurking on the
          list since July, and have greatly enjoyed watching the discussions. It
          has me dreaming up all kinds of new projects, which of course, I don't
          have time for. This is my first year in the SCA, and I'm teaching myself
          to sew as I go. You can see my gowns on my web site:
          http://photos.ladybrooke.com/sca/index.html

          Farewell until our paths cross again,
          Adele de la Fontane
           
           
           
           

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        • Kirrily Robert
          ... What about the skirts in Alcega? I don t have it at work with me, but I could ve sworn there are some in there. Now, whether they re under-skirts or
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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            Madinia wrote:
            > Absolutely. Despite my and my apprentices' best efforts over too long, we have found not one bit of reliable evidence supporting either seperate bodice/skirt garments or a waistbanded skirt.

            What about the skirts in Alcega? I don't have it at work with me, but I
            could've sworn there are some in there. Now, whether they're
            under-skirts or petticoats or something, I don't know offhand... but
            they are certainly separate skirts.

            Yours,

            Katherine


            --
            Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
            katherine@... http://infotrope.net/sca/
            Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
            "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
          • marshamclean@rogers.com
            I meant that they are cut as seperate pieces, but not worn as seperate garments. They are sewn together into one garment. Am I miscommunicating? Madinia ...
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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              Madinia wrote:
              > Absolutely.  Despite my and my apprentices' best efforts over too long, we have found not one bit of reliable evidence supporting either seperate bodice/skirt garments or a waistbanded skirt.

              What about the skirts in Alcega?  I don't have it at work with me, but I
              could've sworn there are some in there.  Now, whether they're
              under-skirts or petticoats or something, I don't know offhand... but
              they are certainly separate skirts.

              Yours,

              Katherine


              --
              Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
              katherine@...  http://infotrope.net/sca/
              Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
              "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"


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            • Brooke Revere
              It makes sense to sew them together. The dresses I ve made in the past were separate, with hooks and eyes to hold them together. Believe me, they re a pain to
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                It makes sense to sew them together. The dresses I've made in the past were separate, with hooks and eyes to hold them together. Believe me, they're a pain to wear. It would be a thousand times easier to just sew it together. Except for the laundering problem... washing the whole gown instead of just the skirts... hmm.

                Adele Fontane
                 

                marshamclean@... wrote:

                 I meant that they are cut as seperate pieces, but not worn as seperate garments.  They are sewn together into one garment.  Am I miscommunicating?

              • Kirrily Robert
                ... No, perhaps I was miscommunicating. There are patterns in Alcega for skirts that have no bodice part at all. Yours, Katherine -- Lady Katherine Rowberd
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                  Madinia wrote:
                  > I meant that they are cut as seperate pieces, but not worn as seperate garments. They are sewn together into one garment. Am I miscommunicating?

                  No, perhaps I was miscommunicating. There are patterns in Alcega for
                  "skirts" that have no bodice part at all.

                  Yours,

                  Katherine

                  --
                  Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
                  katherine@... http://infotrope.net/sca/
                  Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
                  "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"
                • marshamclean@rogers.com
                  Ah, yes, I believe that those are petticoats. But I don t have it in front of me and this is day 2 of massive firefights at work, so.... (off into oblivion)
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                    Madinia wrote:
                    > I meant that they are cut as seperate pieces, but not worn as seperate garments.  They are sewn together into one garment.  Am I miscommunicating?

                    No, perhaps I was miscommunicating.  There are patterns in Alcega for
                    "skirts" that have no bodice part at all.

                    Yours,

                    Katherine

                    --
                    Lady Katherine Rowberd (mka Kirrily "Skud" Robert)
                    katherine@...  http://infotrope.net/sca/
                    Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
                    "The rose is red, the leaves are grene, God save Elizabeth our Queene"


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                  • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                    ... Actually, my wedding gown was two pieces held together with hooks and eyes and I found it to be a joy to wear. SMiles, Despina de la that was only one
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                      At 12:08 PM 10/2/2002 -0700, you wrote:
                      >It makes sense to sew them together. The dresses I've made in the past
                      >were separate, with hooks and eyes to hold them together. Believe me,
                      >they're a pain to wear. It would be a thousand times easier to just sew it
                      >together. Except for the laundering problem... washing the whole gown
                      >instead of just the skirts... hmm.

                      Actually, my wedding gown was two pieces held together with hooks and eyes
                      and I found it to be a joy to wear.

                      SMiles,
                      Despina de la that was only one outfit for only one day too
                    • marshamclean@rogers.com
                      With all the underlayers I rarely launder my gowns. Unless they get physically stained, a good hanging and airing does the trick. Madinia ... It makes sense
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                        It makes sense to sew them together. The dresses I've made in the past were separate, with hooks and eyes to hold them together. Believe me, they're a pain to wear. It would be a thousand times easier to just sew it together. Except for the laundering problem... washing the whole gown instead of just the skirts... hmm.

                        Adele Fontane
                         

                        marshamclean@... wrote:

                         I meant that they are cut as seperate pieces, but not worn as seperate garments.  They are sewn together into one garment.  Am I miscommunicating?


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                      • Brooke Revere
                        ooo, what kind of wedding dress was it? :-) Hook&eyes are great once the dress is on, but my trouble is, without someone to help dress, it can be very
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 2, 2002
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                          ooo, what kind of wedding dress was it? :-)

                          Hook&eyes are great once the dress is on, but my trouble is, without someone to help dress, it can be very difficult to reach the back ones (and even worse in a little tent where you can't stand up while dressing).

                          Adele Fontane

                          "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" wrote:

                           
                          Actually, my wedding gown was two pieces held together with hooks and eyes
                          and I found it to be a joy to wear.

                          SMiles,
                          Despina de la that was only one outfit for only one day too
                           
                           
                           


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                        • ladymorwenna
                          ... This isn t evidence, just something to think on... I just put a picture called 3 women in Morwenna s Photos. It s cropped from the painting A Wedding
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 3, 2002
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                            > Despite my and my apprentices' best efforts over too
                            > long, we have found not one bit of reliable evidence supporting
                            > either seperate bodice/skirt garments or a waistbanded skirt.
                            >
                            > Madinia

                            This isn't evidence, just something to think on...

                            I just put a picture called "3 women" in Morwenna's Photos. It's
                            cropped from the painting "A Wedding [or Fete] at Bermondsey" by Joris
                            Hoefnagel in 1575 (as memory serves). There's 3 lower-class women
                            wearing bodices that are different colors from their skirts. It could
                            be an argument for "separates". I used to think the woman with her
                            back to us showed a gap between bodice and skirt, but now I believe
                            it's her apron strings.

                            The painting as a whole has a great range of classes of dress. There
                            are women in open gowns, women in closed gowns, the 3 lovelies
                            mentioned above.

                            --Morwenna
                          • Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albiz
                            My laurel has a few postcards and photos she took in a small museum in Brussels, I think. Or maybe Antwerp? Anyway, the Flemish painting shows Tavern workers
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 3, 2002
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                              My laurel has a few postcards and photos she took in a small museum in Brussels, I think.  Or maybe Antwerp?  Anyway, the Flemish painting shows Tavern workers (female) wearing separate skirts and bodices, and they have tucked a length of (linen, probably) into the skirt waistband to use as a makeshift apron...
                               
                              Apollonia 
                            • marshamclean@rogers.com
                              Please please please share this!!! I have only rarely been able to access Yahoo groups for any of my lists, so I need to get pics mailed to me at
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 3, 2002
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                                My laurel has a few postcards and photos she took in a small museum in Brussels, I think.  Or maybe Antwerp?  Anyway, the Flemish painting shows Tavern workers (female) wearing separate skirts and bodices, and they have tucked a length of (linen, probably) into the skirt waistband to use as a makeshift apron...
                                 
                                Apollonia 


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                              • marshamclean@rogers.com
                                Please please please share this!!! I have only rarely been able to access Yahoo groups for any of my lists, so I need to get pics mailed to me at
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 3, 2002
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                                  My laurel has a few postcards and photos she took in a small museum in Brussels, I think.  Or maybe Antwerp?  Anyway, the Flemish painting shows Tavern workers (female) wearing separate skirts and bodices, and they have tucked a length of (linen, probably) into the skirt waistband to use as a makeshift apron...
                                   
                                  Apollonia 


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                                • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                                  ... late 1800 s style. *Large* leg o mutton sleeves, smooth front skirt, long train. Done in a small slub dupioni silk. My veil was also silk. LOL! I glow
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 3, 2002
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                                    At 03:01 PM 10/2/2002 -0700, you wrote:
                                    >ooo, what kind of wedding dress was it? :-)

                                    late 1800's style. *Large* leg'o'mutton sleeves, smooth front skirt, long
                                    train. Done in a small slub dupioni silk. My veil was also silk. LOL! I
                                    glow in the pictures, and I'm not talking just because I'm happy! I
                                    actually appear to 'glow', like a ghost. *grin*

                                    >Hook&eyes are great once the dress is on, but my trouble is, without
                                    >someone to help dress, it can be very difficult to reach the back ones
                                    >(and even worse in a little tent where you can't stand up while dressing).

                                    I can see those problems. Getting in and out without help during the
                                    construction phase wasn't a barrel of fun, but it wasn't terribly difficult
                                    either. Then again, I was in my living room, not a tent. *grin*

                                    Smiles,
                                    Despina de la happy day, my wedding today's better though, I've still got
                                    my groom!
                                  • N B
                                    I plan on holding a yuletide Games day here in december, (which for AUssieland is early summer) Any ideas on period Yuletide activities? Or summer solstice
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 9, 2002
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                                      I plan on holding a yuletide Games day here in december,
                                      (which for AUssieland is early summer) Any ideas on period
                                      Yuletide activities? Or summer solstice ones (gonna be
                                      December 22)

                                      Board games

                                      Alquerque
                                      Chess
                                      draughts(checkers)
                                      Backgammon
                                      Fox and geese
                                      etc

                                      Active Games

                                      Tears(how its pronounced not sure how its spelled)
                                      Fox and geese
                                      Kubb
                                      Boules
                                      Croquet?

                                      Maybe a treasure hunt for the kids, but would also like to
                                      bring in some Period ritualness to it.
                                      I would set a period and country but of the two organizers,
                                      I am 16th century spanish, she is Islamic

                                      Lady Catalina de Gata, MoAS Barony of Aneala

                                      __________________________________________________
                                      Do you Yahoo!?
                                      Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
                                      http://faith.yahoo.com
                                    • Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albiz
                                      Hide the slipper? Hoodman s bluff? Apollonia ... From: N B To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 10:13 PM Subject:
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 9, 2002
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                                        Hide the slipper?  Hoodman's bluff?
                                         
                                        Apollonia
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: N B
                                        Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 10:13 PM
                                        Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Yuletide Games day

                                        I plan on holding a yuletide Games day here in december,
                                        (which for AUssieland is early summer)  Any ideas on period
                                        Yuletide activities?  Or summer solstice ones (gonna be
                                        December 22)

                                        Board games

                                        Alquerque
                                        Chess
                                        draughts(checkers)
                                        Backgammon
                                        Fox and geese
                                        etc

                                        Active Games

                                        Tears(how its pronounced not sure how its spelled)
                                        Fox and geese
                                        Kubb
                                        Boules
                                        Croquet?

                                        Maybe a treasure hunt for the kids, but would also like to
                                        bring in some Period ritualness to it.
                                        I would set a period and country but of the two organizers,
                                        I am 16th century spanish, she is Islamic

                                        Lady Catalina de Gata, MoAS Barony of Aneala

                                        __________________________________________________
                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                        Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
                                        http://faith.yahoo.com


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                                      • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                                        ... I know nothing about games and gaming. However, there is a gentleman in the Middle Kingdom who received his laurel *for* gaming. I d ask him, were I you.
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Oct 10, 2002
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                                          At 07:13 PM 10/9/2002 -0700, you wrote:
                                          >I plan on holding a yuletide Games day here in december,
                                          >(which for AUssieland is early summer) Any ideas on period
                                          >Yuletide activities? Or summer solstice ones (gonna be
                                          >December 22)

                                          I know nothing about games and gaming. However, there is a gentleman in
                                          the Middle Kingdom who received his laurel *for* gaming. I'd ask him, were
                                          I you. You can reach him at brusten@... his name is Brusten de
                                          Bearsul. If the email doesn't work, you can go to the MK main page, to the
                                          Order of the Laurel page, and in the guildhall, you'll find him - I believe
                                          his USPS and phone number are listed. He has written two CA's (#71 and
                                          #79) on period games.

                                          Smiles,
                                          Despina
                                        • ladymorwenna
                                          ... Thanks for the contact info, Despina! In one of his CAs, he had a great card game called Ranter-Go-Round and the comments said the game originated in
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Oct 10, 2002
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                                            > I know nothing about games and gaming. However, there is a
                                            > gentleman in the Middle Kingdom who received his laurel *for*
                                            > gaming. I'd ask him, were I you. You can reach him at brusten@d...
                                            > his name is Brusten de Bearsul. If the email doesn't work, you can
                                            > go to the MK main page, to the Order of the Laurel page, and in the
                                            > guildhall, you'll find him - I believe his USPS and phone number are
                                            > listed. He has written two CA's (#71 and #79) on period games.
                                            >
                                            > Smiles,
                                            > Despina

                                            Thanks for the contact info, Despina! In one of his CAs, he had a
                                            great card game called Ranter-Go-Round and the comments said the game
                                            originated in Cornwall and was the first published game rules in
                                            Russia. Perfect for the Mighty Boyar and me to play, except there were
                                            no footnotes, so I don't know the source of this info. And I'm not
                                            willing to just take someone's word for it. Now I can ask him for his
                                            documentation.

                                            Thanks for reminding me,
                                            Morwenna
                                          • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                                            ... You re welcome. The Middle Kingdom lists all members of Chivalry, Pelican, and Laurel on respective pages, which are linked directly to the Middle Kingdom
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Oct 10, 2002
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                                              >Thanks for the contact info, Despina!

                                              You're welcome. The Middle Kingdom lists all members of Chivalry, Pelican,
                                              and Laurel on respective pages, which are linked directly to the Middle
                                              Kingdom main webpage. Many of these peers have listed their contact
                                              information, modern name, and quite a few have pictures up as well. There
                                              is also a plaque for the Order Secretary, who can put you in contact with
                                              any member who doesn't list contact information, if the member is agreeable
                                              to it.

                                              The Laurel page has a plaque "Ask A Laurel", which anyone can use to ask a
                                              question to the members. My understanding is that they post the question
                                              to the laurel net and feed the answers back to the person asking. It's
                                              listed in alphabetical order, so it's not the first plaque.

                                              Personally, I find these features to be *extremely* helpful when looking
                                              for someone or searching for specific information and I'm puzzled as to why
                                              more kingdoms don't have pages such as these for their Peerages. IT's just
                                              so useful.

                                              Just a side thought.

                                              Smiles,
                                              Despina
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