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period tapestry looms?

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  • Violante01@aol.com
    Greetings, all! Can anyone direct me to pictures of period tapestry looms? Also, does anyone know anyone in the D.C.-metro area who could teach me how to
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 10 10:42 AM
      Greetings, all! Can anyone direct me to pictures of period tapestry looms? Also, does anyone know anyone in the D.C.-metro area who could teach me how to tapestry weave? Yes, I have another new hobby! ;)

      Cheers,
      Violante
    • Cassandra ofGlastonbury
      ... tapestry looms? Also, does anyone know anyone in the D.C.-metro area who could teach me how to tapestry weave? Yes, I have another new hobby! ;) ...
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 10 5:52 PM
        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Violante01@a... wrote:
        > Greetings, all! Can anyone direct me to pictures of period
        tapestry looms? Also, does anyone know anyone in the D.C.-metro area
        who could teach me how to tapestry weave? Yes, I have another new
        hobby! ;)
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Violante

        They look like a vertical frame loom. You can find pictures in most
        history of tapestry books. I can recommend the SCA Weaving e-group
        for help and info. Also you can contact me off list. I am messing
        around w/ tapestry.

        Cassandra
      • Violante01@aol.com
        ... Mmmmm, just what I need, another email list. ;P I ve actually been perusing their archives looking for interesting tidbits. Is it my imagination, or is
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 11 5:59 AM
          In a message dated Tue, 10 Sep 2002 7:52:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, loom@... writes:

          > I can recommend the SCA Weaving e-group
          > for help and info.

          Mmmmm, just what I need, another email list. ;P I've actually been perusing their archives looking for interesting tidbits. Is it my imagination, or is tapestry weaving under-represented in the SCA? I can't remember seeing a single tapestry weaving A&S display or class here in Atlantia.

          Cheers,
          Violante
        • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
          ... We get a bit of it here in the Middle Kingdom, not much though. I think the idea of something that most people want to be really large and will take a lot
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 11 6:11 AM
            At 08:59 AM 9/11/2002 -0400, you wrote:
            >Mmmmm, just what I need, another email list. ;P I've actually been
            >perusing their archives looking for interesting tidbits. Is it my
            >imagination, or is tapestry weaving under-represented in the SCA? I can't
            >remember seeing a single tapestry weaving A&S display or class here in
            >Atlantia.

            We get a bit of it here in the Middle Kingdom, not much though. I think
            the idea of something that most people want to be really large and will
            take a lot of time to complete is daunting.

            Smiles,
            Despina
          • dona_violante
            ... think ... will ... But it doesn t have to be large (I don t know about time-consuming, since I haven t tried it yet). Tiraz - those upper arm bands on
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 11 6:27 AM
              > We get a bit of it here in the Middle Kingdom, not much though. I
              think
              > the idea of something that most people want to be really large and
              will
              > take a lot of time to complete is daunting.

              But it doesn't have to be large (I don't know about time-consuming,
              since I haven't tried it yet). Tiraz - those upper arm bands on 10th
              to 13th century Middle Eastern garments - were often tapestry woven,
              and they aren't very big. Oops! I just gave away why I want to
              learn tapestry weaving... ;) At Atlantian Coronation this past
              weekend, my lord Miguel wore a fighting surcote with painted tiraz,
              and those got a *lot* of positive comments. So now I want to do
              fancier *and* more correct ones. All part of my grand scheme to
              prove to the Atlantians that Middle Eastern can be done
              authentically... <insert evil chuckle here>

              Cheers,
              Violante
            • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
              ... Very true on the size and very cool project you have set for yourself. I think that more people need to understand/realize/ be told/ find information on
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 11 6:38 AM
                >But it doesn't have to be large (I don't know about time-consuming,
                >since I haven't tried it yet). Tiraz - those upper arm bands on 10th
                >to 13th century Middle Eastern garments - were often tapestry woven,
                >and they aren't very big.

                Very true on the size and very cool project you have set for yourself. I
                think that more people need to understand/realize/ be told/ find
                information on what different things *were* tapestry woven in period. As I
                said earlier, it's the *thought* that tapestry woven stuff has to be large
                - the reality is that it can be quite small and very beautiful.

                I've seen properly woven arm bands such as you describe and they are
                magnificent! *grin* I'm sure yours will be wonderful and I look forward
                to hearing about your work making them.

                >Oops! I just gave away why I want to
                >learn tapestry weaving... ;) At Atlantian Coronation this past
                >weekend, my lord Miguel wore a fighting surcote with painted tiraz,
                >and those got a *lot* of positive comments. So now I want to do
                >fancier *and* more correct ones. All part of my grand scheme to
                >prove to the Atlantians that Middle Eastern can be done
                >authentically... <insert evil chuckle here>

                We love it when you're evil this way! *grin*

                Smiles,
                Despina
              • unclrashid
                ... Tiraz - those upper arm bands on 10th ... woven, ... Painted ones *are* authentic. There is a painted one in the Met.Museum in New York. Sometimes
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 11 7:10 AM
                  --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "dona_violante" <dona_violante@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  Tiraz - those upper arm bands on 10th
                  > to 13th century Middle Eastern garments - were often tapestry
                  woven,
                  > and they aren't very big. Oops! I just gave away why I want to
                  > learn tapestry weaving... ;) At Atlantian Coronation this past
                  > weekend, my lord Miguel wore a fighting surcote with painted tiraz,
                  > and those got a *lot* of positive comments. So now I want to do
                  > fancier *and* more correct ones. All part of my grand scheme to
                  > prove to the Atlantians that Middle Eastern can be done
                  > authentically... <insert evil chuckle here>
                  >

                  Painted ones *are* authentic. There is a painted one in the
                  Met.Museum in New York. Sometimes "painted" tiraz were hand lettered
                  using sizing instead of ink and then the sizing was gold-leafed.

                  Depending on your period, embroidery may possibly be more common than
                  tapestry.

                  And if you want to get technical, tapestry is not the only technique
                  of patterned weaving. I don't know off-hand if they were tapestry or
                  lampas or tablet woven or what.

                  Rashid
                • kris
                  There was a tapestry weaving project at the last Clinton in An Tir. There were classes taught by a friend of mine, and it was all pretty interesting. If people
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 11 10:14 AM
                    There was a tapestry weaving project at the last Clinton in An Tir. There
                    were classes taught by a friend of mine, and it was all pretty interesting.
                    If people are in Vancouver, BC, Capilano College has a textiles program,
                    and you could probably go up there and look at the projects on display.

                    kris

                    At 08:59 AM 9/11/02 -0400, you wrote:
                    >In a message dated Tue, 10 Sep 2002 7:52:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    >loom@... writes:
                    >
                    > > I can recommend the SCA Weaving e-group
                    > > for help and info.
                    >
                    >Mmmmm, just what I need, another email list. ;P I've actually been
                    >perusing their archives looking for interesting tidbits. Is it my
                    >imagination, or is tapestry weaving under-represented in the SCA? I can't
                    >remember seeing a single tapestry weaving A&S display or class here in
                    >Atlantia.
                    >
                    >Cheers,
                    >Violante
                  • Gwendoline Rosamond
                    ... I think you are correct - I don t remember seeing any tapestry weaving in an A&S display/competition ever! It is more challenging to do in my opinion -
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 11 10:17 PM
                      At 08:59 AM 9/11/2002 -0400, you wrote:
                      >In a message dated Tue, 10 Sep 2002 7:52:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                      >loom@... writes:
                      >
                      > > I can recommend the SCA Weaving e-group
                      > > for help and info.
                      >
                      >Mmmmm, just what I need, another email list. ;P I've actually been
                      >perusing their archives looking for interesting tidbits. Is it my
                      >imagination, or is tapestry weaving under-represented in the SCA? I can't
                      >remember seeing a single tapestry weaving A&S display or class here in
                      >Atlantia.
                      >
                      >Cheers,
                      >Violante

                      I think you are correct - I don't remember seeing any tapestry weaving in
                      an A&S display/competition ever! It is more challenging to do in my
                      opinion - you need to get the ratio of thread diameters between your warp
                      and weft exactly right or you won't be able to pack it down properly.

                      Cheers,
                      Gwendoline
                    • Gwendoline Rosamond
                      ... Now that is an interesting idea... I think I need to make Tiraz for my lord as well... What I ve been using for an impromptu tapestry frame is a wooden
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 11 10:21 PM
                        At 01:27 PM 9/11/2002 +0000, you wrote:

                        > > We get a bit of it here in the Middle Kingdom, not much though. I
                        >think
                        > > the idea of something that most people want to be really large and
                        >will
                        > > take a lot of time to complete is daunting.
                        >
                        >But it doesn't have to be large (I don't know about time-consuming,
                        >since I haven't tried it yet). Tiraz - those upper arm bands on 10th
                        >to 13th century Middle Eastern garments - were often tapestry woven,
                        >and they aren't very big. Oops! I just gave away why I want to
                        >learn tapestry weaving... ;) At Atlantian Coronation this past
                        >weekend, my lord Miguel wore a fighting surcote with painted tiraz,
                        >and those got a *lot* of positive comments. So now I want to do
                        >fancier *and* more correct ones. All part of my grand scheme to
                        >prove to the Atlantians that Middle Eastern can be done
                        >authentically... <insert evil chuckle here>
                        >
                        >Cheers,
                        >Violante

                        Now that is an interesting idea... I think I need to make Tiraz for my
                        lord as well... What I've been using for an impromptu tapestry frame is a
                        wooden stretcher frame from the art store with smooth, round-headed brass
                        nails hammered in both ends to wrap the warp around. It's working not too
                        badly. Only you have to stagger the nails and make them a couple of rows
                        deep to be able to get the threads close enough together.

                        Cheers,
                        Gwendoline who had to learn tapestry weaving in her textile course last
                        summer - oh darn. <G>
                      • Violante01@aol.com
                        ... I just discovered that, much to my chagrine. Miguel finished a simple frame loom for me last night, with finishing nails to wrap the warp around. Yes,
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 12 7:23 AM
                          In a message dated Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:17:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, dameg@... writes:

                          > I think you are correct - I don't remember seeing any tapestry weaving in
                          > an A&S display/competition ever! It is more challenging to do in my
                          > opinion - you need to get the ratio of thread diameters between your warp
                          > and weft exactly right or you won't be able to pack it down
                          > properly.

                          I just discovered that, much to my chagrine. Miguel finished a simple frame loom for me last night, with finishing nails to wrap the warp around. Yes, staggered - the first time he tried, he put them in a straight line and ended up with a cleanly split piece of wood! But either the nails aren't close enough together (3/16 inch), or my warp thread isn't the right weight, or something... *scratches head* This is why I wanted to find someone locally for a teacher...Gwen, you coming out to D.C. for a visit anytime soon??? :P

                          As for challenging...I *still* can't figure out tablet weaving to save my life, so I figure tapestry can't be any worse! ;)

                          Cheers,
                          Violante
                        • Violante01@aol.com
                          ... I ll show you mine if you show me yours. ;P ... *Pout* Sometimes I miss being in school. ...only now that I have a job, I can actually afford all the
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 12 7:29 AM
                            In a message dated Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:21:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, dameg@... writes:

                            > Now that is an interesting idea... I think I need to make Tiraz for my
                            > lord as well...

                            I'll show you mine if you show me yours. ;P

                            > Gwendoline who had to learn tapestry weaving in her textile
                            > course last
                            > summer - oh darn. <G>

                            *Pout* Sometimes I miss being in school. ...only now that I have a job, I can actually afford all the books I lusted after in grad school! ;)

                            Cheers,
                            Violante
                          • anahita_al_shazhiyya
                            ... Do you have any sources on Medieval Middle Eastern card weaving? I can find plenty of info in period card weaving elsewhere, and on 19th and 20th c. Near
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 16 8:06 PM
                              > And if you want to get technical, tapestry is not the only technique
                              > of patterned weaving. I don't know off-hand if they were tapestry or
                              > lampas or tablet woven or what.
                              >
                              > Rashid

                              Do you have any sources on "Medieval Middle Eastern" card weaving? I
                              can find plenty of info in period card weaving elsewhere, and on 19th
                              and 20th c. Near Eastern card weaving. But while i'm rather convinced
                              they did it in the Near East, i haven't been able to fine solid
                              evidence.

                              I've got the cards, i've got the inkle loom... now, i just need the
                              documentation... and some actual patterns...

                              Anahita
                            • stephen higa
                              Wow, Violante, what an awesome project! ... I m also from Al-Andalus, 12th century. Painting would be so much easier than weaving, so would it be appropriate?
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 20 5:38 PM
                                Wow, Violante, what an awesome project!

                                > Painted ones *are* authentic. There is a painted one in the
                                > Met.Museum in New York. Sometimes "painted" tiraz were hand lettered
                                > using sizing instead of ink and then the sizing was gold-leafed.
                                >
                                > Depending on your period, embroidery may possibly be more common than
                                > tapestry.

                                I'm also from Al-Andalus, 12th century. Painting would be so much easier
                                than weaving, so would it be appropriate?

                                Oh--in the Cantigas, there are some pictures of "tiraz" which look like they
                                might just be patches of colored cloth because no designs are depicted
                                therein. Is this just artistic license, or would people sometimes reproduce
                                the look using plain fabric? It looks like there might have been white
                                beads or something around them, too.

                                Moshe
                                --------------------------------------------------
                                Qu'er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers
                                menhs en cort que de belh saber
                                de trobar -- qu'auzir e vezer
                                hi vol hom mais captenhs leugiers
                                e critz mesclatz ab dezonor.

                                --Guiraut Riquier, 1292
                              • Violante01@aol.com
                                ... No, I m not keeping up with my email very well... *blush* IIRC, Nancy Spies has a few Middle Eastern examples in _Aristocratic Pomp and Ecclesiastic
                                Message 15 of 16 , Oct 1, 2002
                                  In a message dated Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:06:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, lilinah@... writes:

                                  > Do you have any sources on "Medieval Middle Eastern" card weaving? I
                                  > can find plenty of info in period card weaving elsewhere, and on 19th
                                  > and 20th c. Near Eastern card weaving. But while i'm rather convinced
                                  > they did it in the Near East, i haven't been able to fine solid
                                  > evidence.
                                  >
                                  > I've got the cards, i've got the inkle loom... now, i just
                                  > need the
                                  > documentation... and some actual patterns...

                                  No, I'm not keeping up with my email very well... *blush* IIRC, Nancy Spies has a few Middle Eastern examples in _Aristocratic Pomp and Ecclesiastic Circumstance_. I'll check when I get home tonight.

                                  Cheers,
                                  Violante
                                • Violante01@aol.com
                                  ... Doh. That s _Ecclesiatic Pomp and Aristocratic Circumstance_. Right words, wrong order! Anyway, a cursory glance last night revealed that she s got
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Oct 2, 2002
                                    In a message dated Tue, 1 Oct 2002 1:39:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, Violante01 writes:

                                    > No, I'm not keeping up with my email very well... *blush* IIRC, Nancy Spies has a few Middle Eastern examples in _Aristocratic Pomp and Ecclesiastic Circumstance_. I'll check
                                    > when I get home tonight.

                                    Doh. That's _Ecclesiatic Pomp and Aristocratic Circumstance_. Right words, wrong order! Anyway, a cursory glance last night revealed that she's got Spanish (and likely Moorish) examples and patterns, but nothing else that you would consider "Middle Eastern". Peter Collingwood, in _Techniques of Tabalet Weaving_ has the occasional reference to Middle Eastern equipment or techniques, but they aren't necessarily period. If you turn up something else in your research, please be sure to share!

                                    Cheers,
                                    Violante
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