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Late period costuming help

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  • arrahateck
    Greetings all, I would like to solicit a few suggestions from this learned group. Our early 17th century living history site is in the happy position of
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 8, 2002
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      Greetings all,

      I would like to solicit a few suggestions from this learned group.
      Our early 17th century living history site is in the happy position
      of needing more costuming to outfit an increase in the number of
      volunteers and staff. This also gives us the opportunity to improve
      the accuracy of our costuming. One of our wardrobe problems is that
      our site depicts the English colony in Virginia from 1611 to 1622.
      Right in the gray area between Elizabethan and Cavalier fashions, and
      without much primary documentation on what was being worn by the
      lower and middle classes in England.

      What I would like are some suggestions about;

      1. Styles for low and middle class men and women (possibly late
      Elizabethan styles in plainer fabrics and with less ornamentation?)

      2. Boning vs. stiffened fabric bodices (cost and comfort...comfort
      is a big issue, since we spend a lot of our days working the tobacco
      field with the temps in the high 90's)

      3. Trunk hose vs. baggy knee breeches (And where can we get a simple
      pattern for bag socks? Are those things held up with points laced to
      the breeches?)

      4. Low cost, adjustable clothing for volunteers and temporary staff.

      5. How to convince potential volunteers that 1) a boned bodice won't
      deform your ribcage, 2) you won't look like a sissy in high stockings
      and trunk hose.

      I have looked at many of the costuming links from this site. The
      ones that have been most helpful so far are Drea Leeds' Elizabethan
      page, the Poulet Gouche page, and one about middle class Flemish
      womens' dress. Comments on these and other web sites would be most
      helpful, as would suggested titles and authors available through the
      library.

      Thanks so much,
      Pete McKee
    • Apollonia Margherita
      Have you looked at any of Janet Arnold s books? They are very helpful... Also have you looked at any portraits on any of the online galleries from that year?
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 8, 2002
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        Have you looked at any of Janet Arnold's books?  They are very helpful...  Also have you looked at any portraits on any of the online galleries from that year?  There is one gallery, webgallery of art, you can search by several things, I think including year.  I know if you list them by movement, they list years the artist was active...
         
        HTH,
         
        Apollonia
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 7:40 PM
        Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Late period costuming help

        Greetings all,

        I would like to solicit a few suggestions from this learned group. 
        Our early 17th century living history site is in the happy position
        of needing more costuming to outfit an increase in the number of
        volunteers and staff.  This also gives us the opportunity to improve
        the accuracy of our costuming.  One of our wardrobe problems is that
        our site depicts the English colony in Virginia from 1611 to 1622. 
        Right in the gray area between Elizabethan and Cavalier fashions, and
        without much primary documentation on what was being worn by the
        lower and middle classes in England.

        What I would like are some suggestions about;

        1.  Styles for low and middle class men and women  (possibly late
        Elizabethan styles in plainer fabrics and with less ornamentation?)

        2.  Boning vs. stiffened fabric bodices  (cost and comfort...comfort
        is a big issue, since we spend a lot of our days working the tobacco
        field with the temps in the high 90's)

        3.  Trunk hose vs. baggy knee breeches (And where can we get a simple
        pattern for bag socks?  Are those things held up with points laced to
        the breeches?)

        4.  Low cost, adjustable clothing for volunteers and temporary staff.

        5.  How to convince potential volunteers that 1) a boned bodice won't
        deform your ribcage, 2) you won't look like a sissy in high stockings
        and trunk hose.

        I have looked at many of the costuming links from this site.  The
        ones that have been most helpful so far are Drea Leeds' Elizabethan
        page, the Poulet Gouche page, and one about middle class Flemish
        womens' dress.  Comments on these and other web sites would be most
        helpful, as would suggested titles and authors available through the
        library.

        Thanks so much,
        Pete McKee






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      • xina007eu
        ... improve ... that ... and ... comfort...comfort ... tobacco ... simple ... to ... staff. ... won t ... stockings ... the ... Hi Pete, 1. Extant garments
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 9, 2002
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "arrahateck" <p_mckee3@y...> wrote:
          > Greetings all,
          >
          > I would like to solicit a few suggestions from this learned group.
          > Our early 17th century living history site is in the happy position
          > of needing more costuming to outfit an increase in the number of
          > volunteers and staff. This also gives us the opportunity to
          improve
          > the accuracy of our costuming. One of our wardrobe problems is
          that
          > our site depicts the English colony in Virginia from 1611 to 1622.
          > Right in the gray area between Elizabethan and Cavalier fashions,
          and
          > without much primary documentation on what was being worn by the
          > lower and middle classes in England.
          >
          > What I would like are some suggestions about;
          >
          > 1. Styles for low and middle class men and women (possibly late
          > Elizabethan styles in plainer fabrics and with less ornamentation?)
          >
          > 2. Boning vs. stiffened fabric bodices (cost and
          comfort...comfort
          > is a big issue, since we spend a lot of our days working the
          tobacco
          > field with the temps in the high 90's)
          >
          > 3. Trunk hose vs. baggy knee breeches (And where can we get a
          simple
          > pattern for bag socks? Are those things held up with points laced
          to
          > the breeches?)
          >
          > 4. Low cost, adjustable clothing for volunteers and temporary
          staff.
          >
          > 5. How to convince potential volunteers that 1) a boned bodice
          won't
          > deform your ribcage, 2) you won't look like a sissy in high
          stockings
          > and trunk hose.
          >
          > I have looked at many of the costuming links from this site. The
          > ones that have been most helpful so far are Drea Leeds' Elizabethan
          > page, the Poulet Gouche page, and one about middle class Flemish
          > womens' dress. Comments on these and other web sites would be most
          > helpful, as would suggested titles and authors available through
          the
          > library.
          >
          > Thanks so much,
          > Pete McKee

          Hi Pete,

          1. Extant garments tend to me upper-class or upper-middle-class ones.
          Poorer people wore their clothes, handed them down, sold them to the
          rag merchant ... you get the idea. You may get the occasional burial
          find (e.g. bog body), but primary sources for lower-class
          garmentsare a bit scarce. From the few examples that there are, e.g.
          the 16th century Alpirsbach finds, it appears that the class
          difference was in material and decoration, not in cut or
          construction. Same patterns, cheaper material, less decoration.

          2. I'd opt for boning unless you have a very good way of stiffening
          fabric that will not backfire e.g. by bleeding sizing into the other
          garments or making the corsets unuseable within a short period of
          time. Don't lace the corsets too tightly. To a certain extent it's a
          question of correct breathing and getting used to the corset. Sarah,
          who's also on this list, has experimented with a buckram corset and a
          corded corset (http://www.elizabethanlady.com/1543pg2.html). Sarah,
          if you read this: do you think the buckram corset will be suitable
          for working in the tobacco fields?

          3. Breeches get longer after 1600, look at contemporary portraits.
          Lower-class people also wore knee-length breeches (venetians, slops)
          before 1600. Look at contemporary woodcuts (for broadsides and
          playscripts etc.). A good book to see the changing fashions is the
          catalogue for the Dynasties exhibition at the Tate:
          http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1854371576/ref=sr_aps_books_1
          _1/202-1439641-5929424
          This also covers the grey zone you mention.

          Maybe I'm a bit stupid, but what are bag socks? Stockings made of
          fabric, i.e. cloth hose? You can hold them up with garters under the
          knee (sometimes visible in contemporary pictures). There are
          different ways to cut them, essentially you have a sole piece, a main
          piece that covers the calf and top and sides of the foot, and ankle
          gussets. The gussets can be cut in one piece with the sole, and the
          sole piece either covers the whole sole, or the main piece wraps
          under the heel with a seam under the heel, and the sole covers only
          the piece from the heel forward. Cut the main piece on the bias to
          make it more elastic.
          IIRC the stockings found on the Vasa (sunk in 1628) have the side
          gussets cut in one piece with the sole, and the sole piece covers the
          whole of the sole.

          4. They have to be made pretty much to measure unless you want to
          look like an extra in some provincial rep production of Shakespeare,
          dressed in an outfit that nobody bothered to alter because he's only
          on stage for 5 minutes. At least the tight-fitting items like corsets
          have to fit. No one-size-fits-all, I'm afraid.

          5. a) Once you are fully grown your ribcage will not be deformed by a
          corset.
          b) Trunk-hose look better than bermuda shorts, and a surprising
          number of people do wear bermuda shorts, including (presumably) a
          number of applicants for jobs at your foundation. And when you've got
          nicely shaped legs, trunk-hose will show them off.

          What kind of outfits are you guys wearing on the reenactment site
          right now?

          Best regards,

          Christina
        • E House
          Consider quilting: 1605: I meane my damask QUILT bodies with whale bones Pierre Erondelle, The French Garden 1611: BUC: A buske, plated body, or other
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 9, 2002
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            Consider quilting:
            1605: "I meane my damask QUILT bodies with whale bones"
                Pierre Erondelle, The French Garden
            1611: "BUC: A buske, plated body, or other QUILTED THING, worn to make, or keep, the body straight."
                Randle Cotgrave, A French-English Dictionary
             
             The references are a bit later, but the origin of corsets lies with quilted waistcoats well over a century before this.  These were imitations of quilted, tight-fitting male garments, and were made of 2 or more layers of linen, quilted together and often padded.
             
            Pasteboard is also a period alternative, generally considered lower class despite this:
            1578: "Itm for making of foure stomachers of PASTE BOURDE covered with taphata."
             
            As is fabric stiffened by glue/paste:
            1550: "Hyr mydle braced in, as smal as a wande;/And some by wastes of wyre at the PASTE WYFES hand."
            (Her middle braced in, as small as a wand/And some buy waists of wire [small waists, as in 'small as a wand', rather than wire as boning] at the paste wife's hand)
                Robert Crowley, One and Thyrtye Epigrammes
             
            Keep in mind that there are a whoooole lot of different kinds of buckram, some stiffened, some not.
             
            E
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: xina007eu
            Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:44 AM
            Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Late period costuming help

            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "arrahateck" <p_mckee3@y...> wrote:
            > Greetings all,
            >
            > I would like to solicit a few suggestions from this learned group. 
            > Our early 17th century living history site is in the happy position
            > of needing more costuming to outfit an increase in the number of
            > volunteers and staff.  This also gives us the opportunity to
            improve
            > the accuracy of our costuming.  One of our wardrobe problems is
            that
            > our site depicts the English colony in Virginia from 1611 to 1622. 
            > Right in the gray area between Elizabethan and Cavalier fashions,
            and
            > without much primary documentation on what was being worn by the
            > lower and middle classes in England.
            >
            > What I would like are some suggestions about;
            >
            > 1.  Styles for low and middle class men and women  (possibly late
            > Elizabethan styles in plainer fabrics and with less ornamentation?)
            >
            > 2.  Boning vs. stiffened fabric bodices  (cost and
            comfort...comfort
            > is a big issue, since we spend a lot of our days working the
            tobacco
            > field with the temps in the high 90's)
            >
            > 3.  Trunk hose vs. baggy knee breeches (And where can we get a
            simple
            > pattern for bag socks?  Are those things held up with points laced
            to
            > the breeches?)
            >
            > 4.  Low cost, adjustable clothing for volunteers and temporary
            staff.
            >
            > 5.  How to convince potential volunteers that 1) a boned bodice
            won't
            > deform your ribcage, 2) you won't look like a sissy in high
            stockings
            > and trunk hose.
            >
            > I have looked at many of the costuming links from this site.  The
            > ones that have been most helpful so far are Drea Leeds' Elizabethan
            > page, the Poulet Gouche page, and one about middle class Flemish
            > womens' dress.  Comments on these and other web sites would be most
            > helpful, as would suggested titles and authors available through
            the
            > library.
            >
            > Thanks so much,
            > Pete McKee

            Hi Pete,

            1. Extant garments tend to me upper-class or upper-middle-class ones.
            Poorer people wore their clothes, handed them down, sold them to the
            rag merchant ... you get the idea. You may get the occasional burial
            find (e.g. bog body), but primary sources  for lower-class
            garmentsare a bit scarce. From the few examples that there are, e.g.
            the 16th century Alpirsbach finds, it appears that the class
            difference was in material and decoration, not in cut or
            construction. Same patterns, cheaper material, less decoration.

            2. I'd opt for boning unless you have a very good way of stiffening
            fabric that will not backfire e.g. by bleeding sizing into the other
            garments or making the corsets unuseable within a short period of
            time. Don't lace the corsets too tightly. To a certain extent it's a
            question of correct breathing and getting used to the corset. Sarah,
            who's also on this list, has experimented with a buckram corset and a
            corded corset (http://www.elizabethanlady.com/1543pg2.html). Sarah,
            if you read this: do you think the buckram corset will be suitable
            for working in the tobacco fields?

            3. Breeches get longer after 1600, look at contemporary portraits.
            Lower-class people also wore knee-length breeches (venetians, slops)
            before 1600. Look at contemporary woodcuts (for broadsides and
            playscripts etc.). A good book to see the changing fashions is the
            catalogue for the Dynasties exhibition at the Tate:
            http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1854371576/ref=sr_aps_books_1
            _1/202-1439641-5929424
            This also covers the grey zone you mention.

            Maybe I'm a bit stupid, but what are bag socks? Stockings made of
            fabric, i.e. cloth hose? You can hold them up with garters under the
            knee (sometimes visible in contemporary pictures). There are
            different ways to cut them, essentially you have a sole piece, a main
            piece that covers the calf and top and sides of the foot, and ankle
            gussets. The gussets can be cut in one piece with the sole, and the
            sole piece either covers the whole sole, or the main piece wraps
            under the heel with a seam under the heel, and the sole covers only
            the piece from the heel forward. Cut the main piece on the bias to
            make it more elastic.
            IIRC the stockings found on the Vasa (sunk in 1628) have the side
            gussets cut in one piece with the sole, and the sole piece covers the
            whole of the sole.

            4. They have to be made pretty much to measure unless you want to
            look like an extra in some provincial rep production of Shakespeare,
            dressed in an outfit that nobody bothered to alter because he's only
            on stage for 5 minutes. At least the tight-fitting items like corsets
            have to fit. No one-size-fits-all, I'm afraid.

            5. a) Once you are fully grown your ribcage will not be deformed by a
            corset.
            b) Trunk-hose look better than bermuda shorts, and a surprising
            number of people do wear bermuda shorts, including (presumably) a
            number of applicants for jobs at your foundation. And when you've got
            nicely shaped legs, trunk-hose will show them off.

            What kind of outfits are you guys wearing on the reenactment site
            right now?

            Best regards,

            Christina



            ----------------------------------------------------
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            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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          • E House
            Oops, misread your era, so it s not later at all. For 1611-1622, you re not really in that much of a gray area, especially for the lower to middle classes. In
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 9, 2002
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              Oops, misread your era, so it's not later at all. For 1611-1622, you're not really in that much of a gray area, especially for the lower to middle classes. In England you still have the corset, the farthingale (though not so much in Holland, judging by the 1617 "Hoore! Hoore!" quotes I'm seeing), etc. Shorter forms of the farthingale such as the hausse-cul (think super-sized bum roll) were growing in popularity, but I'm still finding all sorts of references to the exact same things I find c1600. The corset does not disappear until sometime in the mid-late 1620s; that is when you'd begin to be in the transitional gray area.
               
              Boning vs. stiffening:
              The costs will be reasonably comparable, with metal boning being perhaps a bit more, though the infamous cable tie solution may cost less depending on how much you buy at a time.  The main advantage stiffening will have is that it takes far less time.
               
              E
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: E House
              Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:44 PM
              Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Late period costuming help

              Consider quilting:
              1605: "I meane my damask QUILT bodies with whale bones"
                  Pierre Erondelle, The French Garden
              1611: "BUC: A buske, plated body, or other QUILTED THING, worn to make, or keep, the body straight."
                  Randle Cotgrave, A French-English Dictionary
               
               The references are a bit later, but the origin of corsets lies with quilted waistcoats well over a century before this.  These were imitations of quilted, tight-fitting male garments, and were made of 2 or more layers of linen, quilted together and often padded.
               
              Pasteboard is also a period alternative, generally considered lower class despite this:
              1578: "Itm for making of foure stomachers of PASTE BOURDE covered with taphata."
               
              As is fabric stiffened by glue/paste:
              1550: "Hyr mydle braced in, as smal as a wande;/And some by wastes of wyre at the PASTE WYFES hand."
              (Her middle braced in, as small as a wand/And some buy waists of wire [small waists, as in 'small as a wand', rather than wire as boning] at the paste wife's hand)
                  Robert Crowley, One and Thyrtye Epigrammes
               
              Keep in mind that there are a whoooole lot of different kinds of buckram, some stiffened, some not.
               
              E
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: xina007eu
              Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:44 AM
              Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Late period costuming help

              --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "arrahateck" <p_mckee3@y...> wrote:
              > Greetings all,
              >
              > I would like to solicit a few suggestions from this learned group. 
              > Our early 17th century living history site is in the happy position
              > of needing more costuming to outfit an increase in the number of
              > volunteers and staff.  This also gives us the opportunity to
              improve
              > the accuracy of our costuming.  One of our wardrobe problems is
              that
              > our site depicts the English colony in Virginia from 1611 to 1622. 
              > Right in the gray area between Elizabethan and Cavalier fashions,
              and
              > without much primary documentation on what was being worn by the
              > lower and middle classes in England.
              >
              > What I would like are some suggestions about;
              >
              > 1.  Styles for low and middle class men and women  (possibly late
              > Elizabethan styles in plainer fabrics and with less ornamentation?)
              >
              > 2.  Boning vs. stiffened fabric bodices  (cost and
              comfort...comfort
              > is a big issue, since we spend a lot of our days working the
              tobacco
              > field with the temps in the high 90's)
              >
              > 3.  Trunk hose vs. baggy knee breeches (And where can we get a
              simple
              > pattern for bag socks?  Are those things held up with points laced
              to
              > the breeches?)
              >
              > 4.  Low cost, adjustable clothing for volunteers and temporary
              staff.
              >
              > 5.  How to convince potential volunteers that 1) a boned bodice
              won't
              > deform your ribcage, 2) you won't look like a sissy in high
              stockings
              > and trunk hose.
              >
              > I have looked at many of the costuming links from this site.  The
              > ones that have been most helpful so far are Drea Leeds' Elizabethan
              > page, the Poulet Gouche page, and one about middle class Flemish
              > womens' dress.  Comments on these and other web sites would be most
              > helpful, as would suggested titles and authors available through
              the
              > library.
              >
              > Thanks so much,
              > Pete McKee

            • marshamclean@rogers.com
              I replied to the original post privately, but we re having such a flood of valuable information that I feel the need to comment publicly: Pete did specify that
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 9, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                I replied to the original post privately, but we're having such a flood of valuable information that I feel the need to comment publicly:

                Pete did specify that the group was lower to middle class, and would be laboring. As such, I advised him (based on a recommended packing list for colonists which I can't find, but have almost memorized) to avoid corsets and go with canvas (preferably linen) stiffened bodices, with a more natural waistline that that of the fashionable Elizabethan. This is moving toward the mid 17th century silhouette, as well as being less extreme and more oractical for working people. These people wouldn't be wearing farthingales, either. Maybe a small roll to support the skirt, but fashion would not a a prime concern in a hot tobacco field. I am not trying to dis anyone - on the contrary - the information coming is very good and valuable, just a bit too high brow for the scope of the project. Certainly if they were reinacting a church day or a festive situation, I would expect more fashionable elements.

                Madinia
                >
                > From: "E House" <sig-sauer@...>
                > Date: 2002/07/09 Tue PM 04:11:51 EDT
                > To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Late period costuming help
                >
                > Oops, misread your era, so it's not later at all. For 1611-1622, you're not really in that much of a gray area, especially for the lower to middle classes. In England you still have the corset, the farthingale (though not so much in Holland, judging by the 1617 "Hoore! Hoore!" quotes I'm seeing), etc. Shorter forms of the farthingale such as the hausse-cul (think super-sized bum roll) were growing in popularity, but I'm still finding all sorts of references to the exact same things I find c1600. The corset does not disappear until sometime in the mid-late 1620s; that is when you'd begin to be in the transitional gray area.
                >
                > Boning vs. stiffening:
                > The costs will be reasonably comparable, with metal boning being perhaps a bit more, though the infamous cable tie solution may cost less depending on how much you buy at a time. The main advantage stiffening will have is that it takes far less time.
                >
                > E
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: E House
                > To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:44 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Late period costuming help
                >
                >
                > Consider quilting:
                > 1605: "I meane my damask QUILT bodies with whale bones"
                > Pierre Erondelle, The French Garden
                > 1611: "BUC: A buske, plated body, or other QUILTED THING, worn to make, or keep, the body straight."
                > Randle Cotgrave, A French-English Dictionary
                >
                > The references are a bit later, but the origin of corsets lies with quilted waistcoats well over a century before this. These were imitations of quilted, tight-fitting male garments, and were made of 2 or more layers of linen, quilted together and often padded.
                >
                > Pasteboard is also a period alternative, generally considered lower class despite this:
                > 1578: "Itm for making of foure stomachers of PASTE BOURDE covered with taphata."
                >
                > As is fabric stiffened by glue/paste:
                > 1550: "Hyr mydle braced in, as smal as a wande;/And some by wastes of wyre at the PASTE WYFES hand."
                > (Her middle braced in, as small as a wand/And some buy waists of wire [small waists, as in 'small as a wand', rather than wire as boning] at the paste wife's hand)
                > Robert Crowley, One and Thyrtye Epigrammes
                >
                > Keep in mind that there are a whoooole lot of different kinds of buckram, some stiffened, some not.
                >
                > E
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: xina007eu
                > To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:44 AM
                > Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Late period costuming help
                >
                >
                > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "arrahateck" <p_mckee3@y...> wrote:
                > > Greetings all,
                > >
                > > I would like to solicit a few suggestions from this learned group.
                > > Our early 17th century living history site is in the happy position
                > > of needing more costuming to outfit an increase in the number of
                > > volunteers and staff. This also gives us the opportunity to
                > improve
                > > the accuracy of our costuming. One of our wardrobe problems is
                > that
                > > our site depicts the English colony in Virginia from 1611 to 1622.
                > > Right in the gray area between Elizabethan and Cavalier fashions,
                > and
                > > without much primary documentation on what was being worn by the
                > > lower and middle classes in England.
                > >
                > > What I would like are some suggestions about;
                > >
                > > 1. Styles for low and middle class men and women (possibly late
                > > Elizabethan styles in plainer fabrics and with less ornamentation?)
                > >
                > > 2. Boning vs. stiffened fabric bodices (cost and
                > comfort...comfort
                > > is a big issue, since we spend a lot of our days working the
                > tobacco
                > > field with the temps in the high 90's)
                > >
                > > 3. Trunk hose vs. baggy knee breeches (And where can we get a
                > simple
                > > pattern for bag socks? Are those things held up with points laced
                > to
                > > the breeches?)
                > >
                > > 4. Low cost, adjustable clothing for volunteers and temporary
                > staff.
                > >
                > > 5. How to convince potential volunteers that 1) a boned bodice
                > won't
                > > deform your ribcage, 2) you won't look like a sissy in high
                > stockings
                > > and trunk hose.
                > >
                > > I have looked at many of the costuming links from this site. The
                > > ones that have been most helpful so far are Drea Leeds' Elizabethan
                > > page, the Poulet Gouche page, and one about middle class Flemish
                > > womens' dress. Comments on these and other web sites would be most
                > > helpful, as would suggested titles and authors available through
                > the
                > > library.
                > >
                > > Thanks so much,
                > > Pete McKee
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • E House
                I certainly second the suggestion to go with stiffening, as with the 3 examples of corset options I pointed out (quilting, paste board, and paste-stiffened
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 9, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  I certainly second the suggestion to go with stiffening, as with the 3 examples of corset options I pointed out (quilting, paste board, and paste-stiffened cloth). Each of these is a lower- to middle-class option. The middle classes were wearing farthingales at this point, and while they may not have worn them in the tobacco fields, they would have worn them at appropriate times. Also, the colonists would have been a bit behind the times, not before the times--they would not have been wearing Cavalier fashions.  More rounded effects, yes, but not in ways resembling mid-century fashions. He'd do well to look to fashions several years before his target time.
                   
                  E
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 3:22 PM
                  Subject: Re: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Late period costuming help

                  I replied to the original post privately, but we're having such a flood of valuable information that I feel the need to comment publicly:

                  Pete did specify that the group was lower to middle class, and would be laboring.  As such, I advised him (based on a recommended packing list for colonists which I can't find, but have almost memorized) to avoid corsets and go with canvas (preferably linen) stiffened bodices, with a more natural waistline that that of the fashionable Elizabethan.  This is moving toward the mid 17th century silhouette, as well as being less extreme and more oractical for working people. These people wouldn't be wearing farthingales, either.  Maybe a small roll to support the skirt, but fashion would not a a prime concern in a hot tobacco field.  I am not trying to dis anyone - on the contrary - the information coming is very good and valuable, just a bit too high brow for the scope of the project.  Certainly if they were reinacting a church day or a festive situation, I would expect more fashionable elements.

                  Madinia
                  >
                  > From: "E House" <sig-sauer@...>
                  > Date: 2002/07/09 Tue PM 04:11:51 EDT
                  > To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Late period costuming help
                  >
                  > Oops, misread your era, so it's not later at all. For 1611-1622, you're not really in that much of a gray area, especially for the lower to middle classes. In England you still have the corset, the farthingale (though not so much in Holland, judging by the 1617 "Hoore! Hoore!" quotes I'm seeing), etc. Shorter forms of the farthingale such as the hausse-cul (think super-sized bum roll) were growing in popularity, but I'm still finding all sorts of references to the exact same things I find c1600. The corset does not disappear until sometime in the mid-late 1620s; that is when you'd begin to be in the transitional gray area.
                  >
                  > Boning vs. stiffening:
                  > The costs will be reasonably comparable, with metal boning being perhaps a bit more, though the infamous cable tie solution may cost less depending on how much you buy at a time.  The main advantage stiffening will have is that it takes far less time.
                  >
                  > E
                  >
                  >   ----- Original Message -----
                  >   From: E House
                  >   To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                  >   Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:44 PM
                  >   Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Late period costuming help
                  >
                  >
                  >   Consider quilting:
                  >   1605: "I meane my damask QUILT bodies with whale bones"
                  >       Pierre Erondelle, The French Garden
                  >   1611: "BUC: A buske, plated body, or other QUILTED THING, worn to make, or keep, the body straight."
                  >       Randle Cotgrave, A French-English Dictionary
                  >
                  >    The references are a bit later, but the origin of corsets lies with quilted waistcoats well over a century before this.  These were imitations of quilted, tight-fitting male garments, and were made of 2 or more layers of linen, quilted together and often padded.
                  >
                  >   Pasteboard is also a period alternative, generally considered lower class despite this:
                  >   1578: "Itm for making of foure stomachers of PASTE BOURDE covered with taphata."
                  >
                  >   As is fabric stiffened by glue/paste:
                  >   1550: "Hyr mydle braced in, as smal as a wande;/And some by wastes of wyre at the PASTE WYFES hand."
                  >   (Her middle braced in, as small as a wand/And some buy waists of wire [small waists, as in 'small as a wand', rather than wire as boning] at the paste wife's hand)
                  >       Robert Crowley, One and Thyrtye Epigrammes
                  >
                  >   Keep in mind that there are a whoooole lot of different kinds of buckram, some stiffened, some not.
                  >
                  >   E
                  >
                  >
                  >     ----- Original Message -----
                  >     From: xina007eu
                  >     To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                  >     Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:44 AM
                  >     Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Late period costuming help
                  >
                  >
                  >     --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "arrahateck" <p_mckee3@y...> wrote:
                  >     > Greetings all,
                  >     >
                  >     > I would like to solicit a few suggestions from this learned group. 
                  >     > Our early 17th century living history site is in the happy position
                  >     > of needing more costuming to outfit an increase in the number of
                  >     > volunteers and staff.  This also gives us the opportunity to
                  >     improve
                  >     > the accuracy of our costuming.  One of our wardrobe problems is
                  >     that
                  >     > our site depicts the English colony in Virginia from 1611 to 1622. 
                  >     > Right in the gray area between Elizabethan and Cavalier fashions,
                  >     and
                  >     > without much primary documentation on what was being worn by the
                  >     > lower and middle classes in England.
                  >     >
                  >     > What I would like are some suggestions about;
                  >     >
                  >     > 1.  Styles for low and middle class men and women  (possibly late
                  >     > Elizabethan styles in plainer fabrics and with less ornamentation?)
                  >     >
                  >     > 2.  Boning vs. stiffened fabric bodices  (cost and
                  >     comfort...comfort
                  >     > is a big issue, since we spend a lot of our days working the
                  >     tobacco
                  >     > field with the temps in the high 90's)
                  >     >
                  >     > 3.  Trunk hose vs. baggy knee breeches (And where can we get a
                  >     simple
                  >     > pattern for bag socks?  Are those things held up with points laced
                  >     to
                  >     > the breeches?)
                  >     >
                  >     > 4.  Low cost, adjustable clothing for volunteers and temporary
                  >     staff.
                  >     >
                  >     > 5.  How to convince potential volunteers that 1) a boned bodice
                  >     won't
                  >     > deform your ribcage, 2) you won't look like a sissy in high
                  >     stockings
                  >     > and trunk hose.
                  >     >
                  >     > I have looked at many of the costuming links from this site.  The
                  >     > ones that have been most helpful so far are Drea Leeds' Elizabethan
                  >     > page, the Poulet Gouche page, and one about middle class Flemish
                  >     > womens' dress.  Comments on these and other web sites would be most
                  >     > helpful, as would suggested titles and authors available through
                  >     the
                  >     > library.
                  >     >
                  >     > Thanks so much,
                  >     > Pete McKee
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                • arrahateck
                  ... improve ... that ... and ... comfort...comfort ... tobacco ... simple ... to ... staff. ... won t ... stockings ... the ... Thanks to all who responded to
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 16, 2002
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "arrahateck" <p_mckee3@y...> wrote:
                    > Greetings all,
                    >
                    > I would like to solicit a few suggestions from this learned group.
                    > Our early 17th century living history site is in the happy position
                    > of needing more costuming to outfit an increase in the number of
                    > volunteers and staff. This also gives us the opportunity to
                    improve
                    > the accuracy of our costuming. One of our wardrobe problems is
                    that
                    > our site depicts the English colony in Virginia from 1611 to 1622.
                    > Right in the gray area between Elizabethan and Cavalier fashions,
                    and
                    > without much primary documentation on what was being worn by the
                    > lower and middle classes in England.
                    >
                    > What I would like are some suggestions about;
                    >
                    > 1. Styles for low and middle class men and women (possibly late
                    > Elizabethan styles in plainer fabrics and with less ornamentation?)
                    >
                    > 2. Boning vs. stiffened fabric bodices (cost and
                    comfort...comfort
                    > is a big issue, since we spend a lot of our days working the
                    tobacco
                    > field with the temps in the high 90's)
                    >
                    > 3. Trunk hose vs. baggy knee breeches (And where can we get a
                    simple
                    > pattern for bag socks? Are those things held up with points laced
                    to
                    > the breeches?)
                    >
                    > 4. Low cost, adjustable clothing for volunteers and temporary
                    staff.
                    >
                    > 5. How to convince potential volunteers that 1) a boned bodice
                    won't
                    > deform your ribcage, 2) you won't look like a sissy in high
                    stockings
                    > and trunk hose.
                    >
                    > I have looked at many of the costuming links from this site. The
                    > ones that have been most helpful so far are Drea Leeds' Elizabethan
                    > page, the Poulet Gouche page, and one about middle class Flemish
                    > womens' dress. Comments on these and other web sites would be most
                    > helpful, as would suggested titles and authors available through
                    the
                    > library.
                    >
                    > Thanks so much,
                    > Pete McKee

                    Thanks to all who responded to my inquiry, both on and off list.
                    Your responses have answered some of my questions and, raised a
                    couple more. I'd also like to respond to your questions of me.

                    1. Yes, bag socks are what you called cloth hose. I think bag socks
                    is an 18th century term.

                    2. What are we wearing now? Our mens clothing is in pretty good
                    shape. We are in the baggy knee breeches ( I think they are properly
                    called venetions), and various styles of doublets. We had a
                    costuming meeting last week, and it was decided to add some trunk
                    hose and cannions (sp?) to show some variety.

                    Our womens clothing is where we need the most improvement. Now, they
                    are in drawstring skirts, drawstiring shifts, and those generic
                    bodices. Our volunteer who is most knowledgeable about womens
                    clothing was not able to attend our meeting, and we were reluctant to
                    make any decisions without her input.

                    3. Would that recommended packing list be from "Purchas His
                    Pilgrimes" circa 1624? Of course, my copy is at work right now.
                    But, it is something to the effect of;

                    1 monmoth cap
                    3 shirts
                    3 falling bands
                    1 waste coat
                    1 suit of cloth
                    1 suit of canvas
                    1 suit of frieze
                    3? pairs of irish stockins
                    3? pairs of shoes

                    4. There was the observation that the colonists clothes would be a
                    little behind the times. Our period is in the earliest period of
                    English colonization, so they would not have had time to get too far
                    behind. All their clothing and durable supplies were being shipped
                    from England. Some of these were private purchases, but the bulk was
                    issued by the London Company.

                    5. Finery vs. work clothes; Yes, we are looking for clothing suitable
                    for agricultural labor. You are correct, however, in saying that the
                    middle and upper class would have finery for special days. Some
                    people were making plenty of money in the initial boom of the tobacco
                    economy. There is even a comment made in a letter from our period
                    about the cowkeeper at Jamestown who went about on Sundays dressed
                    in "flaming red silks". For our purposes, though, our volunteer
                    reenactors have enough finery to show off on our special occasions.

                    Now my questions. What is buckram? And, what does it mean when
                    fabric is cut on the bias? Can you tell that costuming is not my
                    area of expertise?

                    Thanks again for all the fine help. If you find yourself near
                    Richmond, Virginia, please pay us a visit. The weeds are under
                    control, but the tobacco still needs suckering, priming, topping, and
                    of course there are always tobbaco worms!

                    Take care,
                    Pete McKee
                  • Apollonia Margherita
                    Buckram is used in making hats. It s stiff fabric. It can be found at Jo-ann s, or other fabric store. I don t know if Wal-Mart has it... Fabric has a
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 17, 2002
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                      Buckram is used in making hats.  It's stiff fabric.  It can be found at Jo-ann's, or other fabric store.  I don't know if Wal-Mart has it...
                       
                      Fabric has a grain, with threads running vertically and horizontally.  Cutting on the bias is when you cut diagonally across the grain...
                       
                      Hope this helps,
                       
                      Apollonia
                       
                      --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "arrahateck" <p_mckee3@y...> wrote:
                      *snip*

                      Thanks to all who responded to my inquiry, both on and off list. 
                      Your responses have answered some of my questions and, raised a
                      couple more.  I'd also like to respond to your questions of me. 

                      Now my questions.  What is buckram?  And, what does it mean when
                      fabric is cut on the bias?  Can you tell that costuming is not my
                      area of expertise?

                      Thanks again for all the fine help.  If you find yourself near
                      Richmond, Virginia, please pay us a visit.  The weeds are under
                      control, but the tobacco still needs suckering, priming, topping, and
                      of course there are always tobbaco worms!

                      Take care,
                      Pete McKee





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                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                    • marshamclean@rogers.com
                      ... Yes, that is the list I recommended. Glad you could find it. Advice: sew the bodices to the skirts, gathering the skirt fabric tightly. We have ne
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 17, 2002
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                        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "arrahateck" <p_mckee3@y...> wrote:
                        > Greetings all,
                        >
                        > I would like to solicit a few suggestions from this learned group. 
                        > Our early 17th century living history site is in the happy position
                        > of needing more costuming to outfit an increase in the number of
                        > volunteers and staff.  This also gives us the opportunity to
                        improve
                        > the accuracy of our costuming.  One of our wardrobe problems is
                        that
                        > our site depicts the English colony in Virginia from 1611 to 1622. 
                        > Right in the gray area between Elizabethan and Cavalier fashions,
                        and
                        > without much primary documentation on what was being worn by the
                        > lower and middle classes in England.
                        >
                        > What I would like are some suggestions about;
                        >
                        > 1.  Styles for low and middle class men and women  (possibly late
                        > Elizabethan styles in plainer fabrics and with less ornamentation?)
                        >
                        > 2.  Boning vs. stiffened fabric bodices  (cost and
                        comfort...comfort
                        > is a big issue, since we spend a lot of our days working the
                        tobacco
                        > field with the temps in the high 90's)
                        >
                        > 3.  Trunk hose vs. baggy knee breeches (And where can we get a
                        simple
                        > pattern for bag socks?  Are those things held up with points laced
                        to
                        > the breeches?)
                        >
                        > 4.  Low cost, adjustable clothing for volunteers and temporary
                        staff.
                        >
                        > 5.  How to convince potential volunteers that 1) a boned bodice
                        won't
                        > deform your ribcage, 2) you won't look like a sissy in high
                        stockings
                        > and trunk hose.
                        >
                        > I have looked at many of the costuming links from this site.  The
                        > ones that have been most helpful so far are Drea Leeds' Elizabethan
                        > page, the Poulet Gouche page, and one about middle class Flemish
                        > womens' dress.  Comments on these and other web sites would be most
                        > helpful, as would suggested titles and authors available through
                        the
                        > library.
                        >
                        > Thanks so much,
                        > Pete McKee

                        Thanks to all who responded to my inquiry, both on and off list. 
                        Your responses have answered some of my questions and, raised a
                        couple more.  I'd also like to respond to your questions of me. 

                        1.  Yes, bag socks are what you called cloth hose.  I think bag socks
                        is an 18th century term.

                        2.  What are we wearing now?  Our mens clothing is in pretty good
                        shape.  We are in the baggy knee breeches ( I think they are properly
                        called venetions), and various styles of doublets.  We had a
                        costuming meeting last week, and it was decided to add some trunk
                        hose and cannions (sp?) to show some variety. 

                        Our womens clothing is where we need the most improvement.  Now, they
                        are in drawstring skirts, drawstiring shifts, and those generic
                        bodices.  Our volunteer who is most knowledgeable about womens
                        clothing was not able to attend our meeting, and we were reluctant to
                        make any decisions without her input.

                        3.  Would that recommended packing list be from "Purchas His
                        Pilgrimes" circa 1624?  Of course, my copy is at work right now. 
                        But, it is something to the effect of;

                        1 monmoth cap
                        3 shirts
                        3 falling bands
                        1 waste coat
                        1 suit of cloth
                        1 suit of canvas
                        1 suit of frieze
                        3? pairs of irish stockins
                        3? pairs of shoes

                        4.  There was the observation that the colonists clothes would be a
                        little behind the times.  Our period is in the earliest period of
                        English colonization, so they would not have had time to get too far
                        behind.  All their clothing and durable supplies were being shipped
                        from England.  Some of these were private purchases, but the bulk was
                        issued by the London Company.

                        5. Finery vs. work clothes; Yes, we are looking for clothing suitable
                        for agricultural labor.  You are correct, however, in saying that the
                        middle and upper class would have finery for special days.  Some
                        people were making plenty of money in the initial boom of the tobacco
                        economy.  There is even a comment made in a letter from our period
                        about the cowkeeper at Jamestown who went about on Sundays dressed
                        in "flaming red silks".  For our purposes, though, our volunteer
                        reenactors have enough finery to show off on our special occasions.

                        Now my questions.  What is buckram?  And, what does it mean when
                        fabric is cut on the bias?  Can you tell that costuming is not my
                        area of expertise?

                        Thanks again for all the fine help.  If you find yourself near
                        Richmond, Virginia, please pay us a visit.  The weeds are under
                        control, but the tobacco still needs suckering, priming, topping, and
                        of course there are always tobbaco worms!

                        Take care,
                        Pete McKee





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                        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                      • Gwendoline Rosamond
                        ... As I m sure other people have responded by now, it is a stiffened fabric. However, it was commonly used as an interlining in garments. There are numerous
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 17, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          At 04:29 AM 7/17/2002 +0000, you wrote:
                          >--- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "arrahateck" <p_mckee3@y...> wrote:
                          >Now my questions. What is buckram? And, what does it mean when
                          >fabric is cut on the bias? Can you tell that costuming is not my
                          >area of expertise?
                          >
                          >Thanks again for all the fine help. If you find yourself near
                          >Richmond, Virginia, please pay us a visit. The weeds are under
                          >control, but the tobacco still needs suckering, priming, topping, and
                          >of course there are always tobbaco worms!
                          >
                          >Take care,
                          >Pete McKee

                          As I'm sure other people have responded by now, it is a stiffened
                          fabric. However, it was commonly used as an interlining in
                          garments. There are numerous mentions in Elizabeth's wardrobe accounts in
                          QEWU of buckram stiffened bodices. Actually, buckram was used in Spain in
                          the 15th century as a bodice stiffener and I think is what is responsible
                          for the really flat-fronted look of the earlier 16th century clothing.

                          Oh, and cut on the bias usually means that the main length of the piece is
                          cut at a 45 degree angle from the warp and weft.

                          Cheers,
                          Gwendoline
                        • Gwendoline Rosamond
                          Greetings, I ll preface this by saying I have a serious case of grad-school brain. I probably know the answer to this but, at the moment all my brain is
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 22, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Greetings,

                            I'll preface this by saying I have a serious case of grad-school brain. I
                            probably know the answer to this but, at the moment all my brain is
                            regurgitating is stuff to do with late 19th century prints. (bleck).

                            So, does anyone know if flocked textiles were used in the 16th
                            century? It's ringing vague bells... Does Cenninni say anything about
                            it? I've added a picture to the photos section of my latest fabric
                            purchase - it's so odd I couldn't resist... Murrey wool with a red flocked
                            pattern.

                            Cheers,
                            Gwendoline the crispy... (5 hours sleep in two days and counting...)
                          • arrahateck <p_mckee3@yahoo.com>
                            ... group. ... position ... 1622. ... ornamentation?) ... laced ... Elizabethan ... most ... I m back again, folks. As I noted in my introduction, I am not a
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 3, 2003
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                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "arrahateck" <p_mckee3@y...>
                              wrote:
                              > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "arrahateck" <p_mckee3@y...> wrote:
                              > > Greetings all,
                              > >
                              > > I would like to solicit a few suggestions from this learned
                              group.
                              > > Our early 17th century living history site is in the happy
                              position
                              > > of needing more costuming to outfit an increase in the number of
                              > > volunteers and staff. This also gives us the opportunity to
                              > improve
                              > > the accuracy of our costuming. One of our wardrobe problems is
                              > that
                              > > our site depicts the English colony in Virginia from 1611 to
                              1622.
                              > > Right in the gray area between Elizabethan and Cavalier fashions,
                              > and
                              > > without much primary documentation on what was being worn by the
                              > > lower and middle classes in England.
                              > >
                              > > What I would like are some suggestions about;
                              > >
                              > > 1. Styles for low and middle class men and women (possibly late
                              > > Elizabethan styles in plainer fabrics and with less
                              ornamentation?)
                              > >
                              > > 2. Boning vs. stiffened fabric bodices (cost and
                              > comfort...comfort
                              > > is a big issue, since we spend a lot of our days working the
                              > tobacco
                              > > field with the temps in the high 90's)
                              > >
                              > > 3. Trunk hose vs. baggy knee breeches (And where can we get a
                              > simple
                              > > pattern for bag socks? Are those things held up with points
                              laced
                              > to
                              > > the breeches?)
                              > >
                              > > 4. Low cost, adjustable clothing for volunteers and temporary
                              > staff.
                              > >
                              > > 5. How to convince potential volunteers that 1) a boned bodice
                              > won't
                              > > deform your ribcage, 2) you won't look like a sissy in high
                              > stockings
                              > > and trunk hose.
                              > >
                              > > I have looked at many of the costuming links from this site. The
                              > > ones that have been most helpful so far are Drea Leeds'
                              Elizabethan
                              > > page, the Poulet Gouche page, and one about middle class Flemish
                              > > womens' dress. Comments on these and other web sites would be
                              most
                              > > helpful, as would suggested titles and authors available through
                              > the
                              > > library.
                              > >
                              > > Thanks so much,
                              > > Pete McKee

                              I'm back again, folks. As I noted in my introduction, I am not a
                              chatty fellow in person, but I think it has been almost a year since
                              I posted anything here. Part of that is during the school year and
                              summer months at the museum, we are up to our ears in alligators,
                              oops! I mean school children and special events. But, I wanted to
                              update the folks who had taken the time to offer advise on my
                              costuming inquiry.

                              Since I was the one making the most noise about authenticity in our
                              clothing, I was given the job of improving our stock. I am an
                              historian, but not a clothing specialist, so I took a while and
                              looked at our options, including the ones you kind folks offered. We
                              decided to modify our existing petticoats to a drawstring waist to
                              make them more usable to a wider range of staff and volunteers. We
                              will continue to use the drawstring neck shifts, but cover the
                              drawstring and neckline with partlets of various collar styles. We
                              went through our stock of generic bodices and took out the worst
                              offenders. These will end up inside my quilted armour. we will keep
                              some of them for "sometime volunteers", the ones who only show up one
                              day a year to play dress up. Yesterday, we had a workshop with our
                              more commited volunteers. They each traced a pattern for a fitted
                              jacket type gament from the Janet Arnold pattern book. Each has
                              agreed to use a different color, and to vary the closures and collar
                              styles so we don't end up wearing "uniforms". Because of the
                              potential for turnover in paid staff, they will be outfitted in
                              generic sized (large, medium, or small) bodices, or doublet style
                              gaments with detatchable sleeves, and stomachers to allow for a wider
                              range of sizes.

                              This will take a while to implement, but it is a big step toward our
                              more accurate presentation of the material culture of the people who
                              lived in 17th century Virginia. Once again, thanks for the help.

                              Take care,
                              > Pete McKee
                            • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                              ... Sounds wonderful Pete. Congratulations on the progress. Smiles, Despina
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 3, 2003
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                                At 07:08 PM 2/3/2003 +0000, you wrote:
                                >This will take a while to implement, but it is a big step toward our
                                >more accurate presentation of the material culture of the people who
                                >lived in 17th century Virginia. Once again, thanks for the help.

                                Sounds wonderful Pete. Congratulations on the progress.

                                Smiles,
                                Despina
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