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Re: cote-hardie question

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  • wodeford
    ... Hi, Marilyn. Who fit you? Jenne or Isabeau? ;- ... Did you try the lying-down back and front seam fitting? Brynn did mine for the muslin I used for my
    Message 1 of 24 , May 6, 2002
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      --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Marilyn Hillvic <hillvicus@y...> wrote:
      > A lady in my shire, who is a coathardie expert,
      > helped me fit the under-gown for my coathardie.
      Hi, Marilyn. Who fit you? Jenne or Isabeau? ;->

      > The process involved 4 parts of linen fabric with
      > the front seam pinned in place straight down the
      > front, the back seam fitted to the curve in your spine
      > (I thought it looked like the dorsal fin of a fish as
      > it was pinned and the selvages stood up), then the
      > side seams and shoulders were "hauled up", along with
      > the pair of bodies, and pinned with industrial-strengh
      > pins, until the fabric became the shape of a shelf for
      > the pair of bodies to rest on. This is not a 1-step
      > process, but a fine-tuning of pinning, wiggling
      > around, and taking in what stretches out. The
      > under-gown ultimately laces up the front with spiral
      > lacing for bulk-free support, and a fitted over-gown
      > (a coathardie with all those lovely buttons) will be
      > put on, resting on this wonderful support under
      > garment to create that Duc-du-Barry look.
      Did you try the lying-down back and front seam fitting? Brynn did
      mine for the muslin I used for my Irish dress and for the as-yet-
      unfinished cote I've been fiddling with. It really works.

      My Italian is finished (except for sleeves). Must get pictures. I
      amazed myself with what a good fit I got with a commercial pattern. I
      decided to bone the edges of the bodice, simply because it gave a
      sturdier platform for the eyehooks to be attached to. Vittoria,
      thanks again for the Campi painting links. I think I came up with
      something that looks pretty close - but could be easily dressed up
      with fancier sleeves.

      Jehanne
    • Gwendoline Rosamond
      Just to point out, Robin calls the garment a gown - which in her research she has found is the correct name for the garment. However, gown was used in many
      Message 2 of 24 , May 6, 2002
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        Just to point out, Robin calls the garment a gown - which in her research
        she has found is the correct name for the garment. However, gown was used
        in many periods for completely different styles and she uses "Gothic Fitted
        Dress" as an explanatory name for her classes or subject lines in emails -
        rather than thinking that is the actual name of the garment. If you have
        issues with her stuff, I would be happy to forward them to her.

        Cheers,
        Gwendoline

        At 09:07 AM 5/6/2002 -0500, you wrote:
        >Hehe, this touches on MY pet peeve:
        >I hate it when terms get 'defined' far more strictly by modern people than
        >they were defined in period. I really, really do understand how handy it
        >is for recreators to have super specific terms, really I do. I just wish
        >that rather than redefining (and when the term is made more specific than
        >it really is, it's redefining) the term, people would come up with a new
        >term. (Like calling it a Gothic fitted dress. That? Fine.)
        >
        >Hmph. Hmph, I say. 10 years from now, people are going to redefine
        >'dress' to mean '4 panel pieced front-laced overgown with slightly flared
        >sleeves in c1495 Dutch style, generally looser than its counterpart in
        >France, made in wool twill and bound at the neck and sleeves in gold,' and
        >my head is going to explode, hopefully getting the ickiest bits up their
        >collective noses.
        >E
      • Steven Proctor
        Ummmm, if I may take exception, ma cher Jehanne... The cotehardie *may* have the seam running down the outside of the arm. I have seen at least one
        Message 3 of 24 , May 7, 2002
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          Ummmm, if I may take exception, ma cher Jehanne...

          The cotehardie *may* have the seam running down the outside of the arm.
          I have seen at least one illumination where the seams runs to the
          armpit...

          Ta

          Morgan


          wodeford wrote:

          > That would be because modern sleeves have the seam running from mid
          > armpit to the inside of the wrist.

          > The "cotehardie", or fitted Gothic gown as Netherton calls it, has
          > the sleeve seam running down the outside edge of the arm.
          >
          > Jehanne

          --
          It's 6:15, she thought, and the newspaper should be here by now, then
          she opened her door and realized with disgust that the paper boy was
          still in her bedroom.
        • wodeford
          ... Go for it, cher Baron. I m still learning... Jehanne de Too Many Books Too Little Time Wodeford
          Message 4 of 24 , May 7, 2002
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Steven Proctor <sproctor@b...> wrote:
            > Ummmm, if I may take exception, ma cher Jehanne...

            Go for it, cher Baron. I'm still learning...

            Jehanne de Too Many Books Too Little Time Wodeford
          • demontsegur
            ... their pet definition says it means. ... say that there is a sole definition in each era and area. It can t be done, not with any respect for historical
            Message 5 of 24 , May 7, 2002
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "E House" <sig-sauer@c...> wrote:
              > what is not accurate is saying that kirtle can SOLELY mean whatever
              their pet definition says it means.
              >
              > One just cannot make kirtle mean only one thing. One cannot even
              say that there is a sole definition in each era and area. It can't be
              done, not with any respect for historical accuracy. It was not used
              as a specific term by the people we try to emulate, and we should not
              try to force it to become a specific term now as a part of our
              attempt to emulate them.
              ___________________________________________

              Greetings,

              <disclaimer -- I didn't think you were picking on me -- I'm
              interested in the topic, so I'm happy to continue the dialogue.>

              I've read your argument and I understand your issue. I was not aware
              that the term was being used by others to mean "only X-type of
              dress". That said, I don't think that using the term 'kirtle' in
              reference to the Gothic Fitted Dress (nod to Robin Netherton) is an
              implicit statement that it's the only meaning of the word. I've
              personally never assumed it was, and have also heard of the term
              being used for different garments in other periods. The one thing all
              these versions seem to have in common is that the kirtle layer is
              versatile -- because it can be worn as an underlayer and as the top
              layer. Feeling casual? Wear it over a chemise and it's your top
              layer. Feeling dressy? Put on a fancier layer over it.

              What we all seem to agree on is that there is no concrete term for
              the decorative underdress that shows up in wardrobe accounts and in
              in the paintings of the 14th and 15th centuries. We know it's there,
              we know it takes several forms, and we know it can be worn alone or
              with another dress on top of it. Another common denominator appears
              to be that this versatile layer has long sleeves, with or without
              buttons. These dresses were worn all over -- England, France,
              Germany, Italy, etc. Each culture had any number of names for them.
              For these reasons, we modern-day folks are left with little option
              for an obviously definitive name. We could be more generic and call
              these dresses "decorative underdresses", but that verges on the rest
              of your complaint -- getting overly descriptive with the name. In the
              midst of a conversation about 14th-15th century dress, it seems
              reasonable to me to use the term 'kirtle' and still be clear. It
              helps to define your terms at the beginning of the conversation, of
              course.

              All of this argument applies to the word 'cote' as well -- it's a
              term used in period, and it's safer than using 'cotehardie' which is
              a term that I've only ever read about as a reference to male clothing
              of the period. In addition, the term 'cote' as used in period implies
              a top layer -- something _always_ worn as a top layer. Judging from
              our limited information of the jargon used in period and the art of
              that time, I've come to the conclusion that it is necessary to
              distinguish between the two layers and to use a reasonable and
              simple 'name' for each layer for the purpose of communication and
              instruction. I've settled on 'cote' (for now, anyway). Again, if
              anyone has contrary information or suggestions for better names,
              please share. As I've stated before, I do not assume that I've
              figured out everything there is to know on the subject and I do
              welcome new angles.

              Cheers,
              Marcele de Montsegur
            • Nessaofthelox
              Wow! There is an Illumination that shows seams, where did you find it? Always in search of documentation, Agnes
              Message 6 of 24 , May 7, 2002
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                Wow! There is an Illumination that shows seams, where did you find it?

                Always in search of documentation, Agnes




                --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Steven Proctor <sproctor@b...> wrote:
                > Ummmm, if I may take exception, ma cher Jehanne...
                > The cotehardie *may* have the seam running down the outside of the arm.
                > I have seen at least one illumination where the seams runs to the
                > armpit...
                > Ta
                > Morgan
              • Steven Proctor
                Hmmm. Thought I could find it on line, but apparently I can t. It s from the Belles Heures of Jean de Berri, one of the executioners is wearing a cote, and as
                Message 7 of 24 , May 7, 2002
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                  Hmmm. Thought I could find it on line, but apparently I can't. It's from
                  the Belles Heures of Jean de Berri, one of the executioners is wearing a
                  cote, and as his arm is raised for the beheading stroke toy can see his
                  armpit clearly...

                  I may have a scan of it at home, if I do I'll upload it and let people
                  know...

                  Ta

                  Morgan



                  Nessaofthelox wrote:
                  >
                  > Wow! There is an Illumination that shows seams, where did you find it?
                  >
                  > Always in search of documentation, Agnes
                  >
                  > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Steven Proctor <sproctor@b...> wrote:
                  > > Ummmm, if I may take exception, ma cher Jehanne...
                  > > The cotehardie *may* have the seam running down the outside of the
                  > arm.
                  > > I have seen at least one illumination where the seams runs to the
                  > > armpit...
                  > > Ta
                  > > Morgan
                  >
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                  --
                  It's 6:15, she thought, and the newspaper should be here by now, then
                  she opened her door and realized with disgust that the paper boy was
                  still in her bedroom.
                • arhylda@aol.com
                  In a message dated 5/7/02 11:14:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 8, 2002
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                    In a message dated 5/7/02 11:14:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                    Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

                    << Wow! There is an Illumination that shows seams, where did you find it?

                    Always in search of documentation, Agnes >>

                    I'm wondering...what kind of evidence other than pictorial are you all using
                    to devise your patterns? I personally was disappointed with Ms. Netherton's
                    presentation at Known World Costume Symposium last year. While her theories
                    were interesting, they were entirely based on pictorial sources. Convince me
                    that they would have actually done that extreme amount of pattern draping in
                    that period! ; )

                    Doubting Mairi (hey, I always annoyed my mother, too..."But why? But how? But
                    why? But how?")
                  • Gwendoline Rosamond
                    ... ... You make excellent points. Now, personally I would call the layers smock, kirtle, and gown but I am working from an English perspective. Oh,
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 8, 2002
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                      At 02:22 PM 5/6/2002 +0000, you wrote:
                      >--- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "E House" <sig-sauer@c...> wrote:

                      <snip>

                      >Hmm. I'm not quite sure what you mean here... Do you mean that the
                      >term 'kirtle' and 'cote' are redefined terms for other, original
                      >meanings? If so, please let me know more about the terms -- I'm
                      >always looking for such information. I'd also welcome further ideas
                      >on the two dresses -- because they are distinctly different and serve
                      >different purposes. When you are describing an outfit that consists
                      >of a chemise layer, an underdress layer, and an overdress layer, how
                      >would one 'name' those layers? "Gothic Fitted dress" is a great
                      >descriptor for the look in general, but it doesn't help people figure
                      >out which layers to wear together -- does one wear one G.F.D. and be
                      >done with any further detail? Or, does one wear two G.F.Ds, of style
                      >A and B together?
                      >
                      >I can well imagine that in period folks had no need to be specific
                      >due to the fact that everyone just "knew" how the dresses went or
                      >didn't go together. However, as you've pointed out, recreators need
                      >to be able to define the pieces of the 'roba' (entire outfit). I'm
                      >completely open to suggestions on this, as I haven't comfortably
                      >settled down with any set words yet. I've been using kirtle and cote
                      >for lack of anything else concrete yet. Ideas?
                      >
                      >Marcele de Montsegur

                      You make excellent points. Now, personally I would call the layers smock,
                      kirtle, and gown but I am working from an English perspective. Oh, and
                      I've been lately looking at wills that are very late 14th century and early
                      15th century and kirtle and gown have both been mentioned. However, the
                      most bizarre thing I've found is a "pourpoint" left to a woman...

                      Cheers,
                      Gwendoline
                    • demontsegur
                      ... and early ... However, the ... Fascinating! How did you find the wills? And do you think that the pourpoint being left to a woman might indicate that the
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 9, 2002
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                        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Gwendoline Rosamond <dameg@a...> wrote:
                        > I've been lately looking at wills that are very late 14th century
                        and early
                        > 15th century and kirtle and gown have both been mentioned.
                        However, the
                        > most bizarre thing I've found is a "pourpoint" left to a woman...
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > Gwendoline

                        Fascinating! How did you find the wills? And do you think that the
                        pourpoint being left to a woman might indicate that the word might
                        have been used for women's gowns/outer layers? Or possibly something
                        was left to a woman for recycling purposes, for their offspring's
                        use, or maybe because this lady was one of those cross-dressing
                        tournament-attenders I've read about in _Fashion in the Age of the
                        Black Prince_!

                        Apparently, cadres of upper-class ladies liked to get together, dress
                        in masculine fashions, and then attend tournaments and generally
                        raise a ruckus. Contemporary writings describe them as independent
                        and heartless, if I remember correctly, though those exact words were
                        probably not used. I'll have to go home and look this up..

                        Marcele de Montsegur
                      • Gwendoline Rosamond
                        ... I get them in book form. I have no idea why it was left to the woman, I m only just getting into the 15th century stuff - I usually work with 16th
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 11, 2002
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                          At 02:10 PM 5/9/2002 +0000, you wrote:
                          >--- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Gwendoline Rosamond <dameg@a...> wrote:
                          > > I've been lately looking at wills that are very late 14th century
                          >and early
                          > > 15th century and kirtle and gown have both been mentioned.
                          >However, the
                          > > most bizarre thing I've found is a "pourpoint" left to a woman...
                          > >
                          > > Cheers,
                          > > Gwendoline
                          >
                          >Fascinating! How did you find the wills? And do you think that the
                          >pourpoint being left to a woman might indicate that the word might
                          >have been used for women's gowns/outer layers? Or possibly something
                          >was left to a woman for recycling purposes, for their offspring's
                          >use, or maybe because this lady was one of those cross-dressing
                          >tournament-attenders I've read about in _Fashion in the Age of the
                          >Black Prince_!

                          I get them in book form. I have no idea why it was left to the woman, I'm
                          only just getting into the 15th century stuff - I usually work with 16th
                          century. From everything I've read however, I don't think that women would
                          normally wear such a garment. These are mainly merchant class wills so its
                          really hard to tell....

                          >Apparently, cadres of upper-class ladies liked to get together, dress
                          >in masculine fashions, and then attend tournaments and generally
                          >raise a ruckus. Contemporary writings describe them as independent
                          >and heartless, if I remember correctly, though those exact words were
                          >probably not used. I'll have to go home and look this up..
                          >
                          >Marcele de Montsegur

                          Well, the reference says "to Edith, their servant (servienti), one white
                          "parpyne"" so it is most like a case of recycling...

                          Cheers,
                          Gwendoline
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