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IKONS

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  • Jennifer Hill
    During & after the Crusades, do we find that Crusaders brought back Ikons from Greece? Particular images being more popular? Gwen verch Rhys
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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      During & after the Crusades, do we find that Crusaders brought back
      Ikons from Greece? Particular images being more popular?
      Gwen verch Rhys
    • Zohra Rawling
      --On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:20 AM -0700 Jennifer Hill ... ooo something I can speak on! the most popular was Christ, then virgin mary with
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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        --On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:20 AM -0700 Jennifer Hill <jhill@...>
        wrote:

        > During & after the Crusades, do we find that Crusaders brought back
        > Ikons from Greece? Particular images being more popular?
        > Gwen verch Rhys
        >



        ooo something I can speak on!

        the most popular was Christ, then virgin mary with child,
        nativity, St. Joseph and the betrothal or marriage of mary and joseph
        (biblical scenes) and archangels.


        then depending on where you were geographically you would see more of one
        saint than the other.
        for example St. George is very popular in the Russian area.



        ok first here is an article on the defense of the images


        http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/johndam-icons.html


        these are Ukranian

        http://www.ugkc.lviv.ua/Gallery/MainHall.html


        here are a few more examples

        http://www.mit.edu:8001/activities/ocf/icons.html

        and one I did although the picture did not come out that well

        http://www.firedrake.net/~zisaac/graphics/icons/MVC-015S.JPG


        any other questions?


        Ysabella
      • Jennifer Hill
        Thank you so much for the links! What about those of us in Wales??? I don t think we fell into Crusading fever all that much, but I personally adore Ikons &
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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          Thank you so much for the links! What about those of us in Wales??? I
          don't think we fell into Crusading fever all that much, but I personally
          adore Ikons & want one for my pavilion. <G> hugs, Gwen

          Zohra Rawling wrote:

          >
          >--On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:20 AM -0700 Jennifer Hill <jhill@...>
          >wrote:
          >
          >>During & after the Crusades, do we find that Crusaders brought back
          >>Ikons from Greece? Particular images being more popular?
          >>Gwen verch Rhys
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >ooo something I can speak on!
          >
          >the most popular was Christ, then virgin mary with child,
          >nativity, St. Joseph and the betrothal or marriage of mary and joseph
          >(biblical scenes) and archangels.
          >
          >
          >then depending on where you were geographically you would see more of one
          >saint than the other.
          >for example St. George is very popular in the Russian area.
          >
          >
          >
          >ok first here is an article on the defense of the images
          >
          >
          >http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/johndam-icons.html
          >
          >
          >these are Ukranian
          >
          >http://www.ugkc.lviv.ua/Gallery/MainHall.html
          >
          >
          >here are a few more examples
          >
          >http://www.mit.edu:8001/activities/ocf/icons.html
          >
          >and one I did although the picture did not come out that well
          >
          >http://www.firedrake.net/~zisaac/graphics/icons/MVC-015S.JPG
          >
          >
          >any other questions?
          >
          >
          >Ysabella
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >----------------------------------------------------
          >This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
          >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          >authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
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          >
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          >
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          >

          --
          Gwen verch Rhys of Gwynedd
          Jennifer Hill
          All manner of thing shall be well. Julian of Norwich
        • Jennifer Hill
          Ysabella: I love the one you did! Delightful!@ Gwen ... -- Gwen verch Rhys of Gwynedd Jennifer Hill All manner of thing shall be well. Julian of Norwich
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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            Ysabella: I love the one you did! Delightful!@ Gwen

            Zohra Rawling wrote:

            >
            >--On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:20 AM -0700 Jennifer Hill <jhill@...>
            >wrote:
            >
            >>During & after the Crusades, do we find that Crusaders brought back
            >>Ikons from Greece? Particular images being more popular?
            >>Gwen verch Rhys
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >ooo something I can speak on!
            >
            >the most popular was Christ, then virgin mary with child,
            >nativity, St. Joseph and the betrothal or marriage of mary and joseph
            >(biblical scenes) and archangels.
            >
            >
            >then depending on where you were geographically you would see more of one
            >saint than the other.
            >for example St. George is very popular in the Russian area.
            >
            >
            >
            >ok first here is an article on the defense of the images
            >
            >
            >http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/johndam-icons.html
            >
            >
            >these are Ukranian
            >
            >http://www.ugkc.lviv.ua/Gallery/MainHall.html
            >
            >
            >here are a few more examples
            >
            >http://www.mit.edu:8001/activities/ocf/icons.html
            >
            >and one I did although the picture did not come out that well
            >
            >http://www.firedrake.net/~zisaac/graphics/icons/MVC-015S.JPG
            >
            >
            >any other questions?
            >
            >
            >Ysabella
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >----------------------------------------------------
            >This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
            >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            >authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Gwen verch Rhys of Gwynedd
            Jennifer Hill
            All manner of thing shall be well. Julian of Norwich
          • Carolle M Cox
            Ikons have existed since the advent of the Holy Roman Church and it s spin-off the Eastern Orthodox Church. I m quite sure (wink) one could make it s way to
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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              Ikons have existed since the advent of the Holy Roman Church and it's
              spin-off the Eastern Orthodox Church. I'm quite sure (wink) one could make
              it's way to Wales by your time!

              Grinning Gerita


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Jennifer Hill" <jhill@...>
              To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:05 PM
              Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] IKONS


              > Ysabella: I love the one you did! Delightful!@ Gwen
              >
              > Zohra Rawling wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >--On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:20 AM -0700 Jennifer Hill
              <jhill@...>
              > >wrote:
              > >
              > >>During & after the Crusades, do we find that Crusaders brought back
              > >>Ikons from Greece? Particular images being more popular?
              > >>Gwen verch Rhys
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >ooo something I can speak on!
              > >
              > >the most popular was Christ, then virgin mary with child,
              > >nativity, St. Joseph and the betrothal or marriage of mary and joseph
              > >(biblical scenes) and archangels.
              > >
              > >
              > >then depending on where you were geographically you would see more of one
              > >saint than the other.
              > >for example St. George is very popular in the Russian area.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >ok first here is an article on the defense of the images
              > >
              > >
              > >http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/johndam-icons.html
              > >
              > >
              > >these are Ukranian
              > >
              > >http://www.ugkc.lviv.ua/Gallery/MainHall.html
              > >
              > >
              > >here are a few more examples
              > >
              > >http://www.mit.edu:8001/activities/ocf/icons.html
              > >
              > >and one I did although the picture did not come out that well
              > >
              > >http://www.firedrake.net/~zisaac/graphics/icons/MVC-015S.JPG
              > >
              > >
              > >any other questions?
              > >
              > >
              > >Ysabella
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >----------------------------------------------------
              > >This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
              > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > >authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > --
              > Gwen verch Rhys of Gwynedd
              > Jennifer Hill
              > All manner of thing shall be well. Julian of Norwich
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Rosine
              We have a lady in Atlantia (darned if I can remember her name) who is currently painting icons. She does lovely work, and the part I appreciate as much as her
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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                We have a lady in Atlantia (darned if I can remember her name) who is
                currently painting icons. She does lovely work, and the part I appreciate as
                much as her skill is that she takes care to be in the "proper frame of mind"
                for such reverent work. I like that. Maybe if we're lucky, Effingham, she
                can be induced to show some of her work at Pennsic so you can see it.
                I don't know what she does with the finished pieces. I don't believe she
                sells them.


                Rosine
              • Zohra Rawling
                --On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:03 PM -0700 Jennifer Hill ... Not a problem Gwen! David of Wales (patron saint)
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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                  --On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:03 PM -0700 Jennifer Hill <jhill@...>
                  wrote:

                  > Thank you so much for the links! What about those of us in Wales??? I
                  > don't think we fell into Crusading fever all that much, but I personally
                  > adore Ikons & want one for my pavilion. <G> hugs, Gwen

                  Not a problem Gwen!



                  David of Wales (patron saint)
                  http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintd08.htm

                  and Saint David's day

                  http://www.sucs.swan.ac.uk/~rhys/stdavid.html

                  WOMEN:

                  http://www.geocities.com/orthodox_women/wales.html


                  remember also that many of the gods of the old religion were christianized
                  and turned into saints. So that is always a good place to look
                  Such as Saint Bridget ^_^

                  supposedly angels flew her to witness the birth of Jesus.

                  ^_^

                  I love that stuff.


                  oh and a BOOK!


                  http://www.walesbooks.com/temp_book1b.htm



                  Ysabella
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... Icons weren t popular to bring back. Most of the icons at the time were part of the Church architecture. Unfortunately, the dastard crusaders *did* loot
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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                    Jennifer Hill wrote:

                    > During & after the Crusades, do we find that Crusaders brought back
                    > Ikons from Greece? Particular images being more popular?
                    > Gwen verch Rhys
                    >

                    Icons weren't popular to bring back. Most of the icons at the time were part
                    of the Church architecture. Unfortunately, the dastard crusaders *did* loot
                    lots of churches and took back thousands of reliquaries and other things
                    from the East.

                    I suggest you look at the fourth crusade and the rape of Constantinople as
                    an example of their behavior.

                    Effingham
                    Eastern Orthodox
                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... Ummm... I know you don t mean ill, but.... Icons are *not* kitsch. They re not chotchkies for interior decor. They re not pretty pictures. Icons are
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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                      Jennifer Hill wrote:

                      > Thank you so much for the links! What about those of us in Wales??? I
                      > don't think we fell into Crusading fever all that much, but I personally
                      > adore Ikons & want one for my pavilion. <G> hugs, Gwen
                      >

                      Ummm... I know you don't mean ill, but....

                      Icons are *not* kitsch. They're not chotchkies for interior decor. They're not
                      pretty pictures.

                      Icons are objects of devotion and veneration, and that is how they should be
                      treated.

                      Effingham
                      (did I mention I was an iconographer?)
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... Sorry. Other way around. Effingham
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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                        Carolle M Cox wrote:

                        > Ikons have existed since the advent of the Holy Roman Church and it's
                        > spin-off the Eastern Orthodox Church. I'm quite sure (wink) one could make
                        > it's way to Wales by your time!

                        Sorry. Other way around.


                        Effingham
                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... Spiff. I keep thinking about teaching a course on iconography, but it takes a lot more time than just an hour. It would have to be one of those multi-part
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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                          Rosine wrote:

                          > We have a lady in Atlantia (darned if I can remember her name) who is
                          > currently painting icons. She does lovely work, and the part I appreciate as
                          > much as her skill is that she takes care to be in the "proper frame of mind"
                          > for such reverent work. I like that. Maybe if we're lucky, Effingham, she
                          > can be induced to show some of her work at Pennsic so you can see it.
                          > I don't know what she does with the finished pieces. I don't believe she
                          > sells them.
                          >

                          Spiff.

                          I keep thinking about teaching a course on iconography, but it takes a lot more
                          time than just an hour. It would have to be one of those multi-part courses...
                          but an important part of it is, as you say, the frame of mind and so on.

                          Plus there is a certain concern in the mind of many iconographers about
                          teaching it to the heterodox. I'm a bit ambivalent; if someone's going to paint
                          an icon, they're going to paint one -- they should do it right. But still...
                          sigh. We don't want to encourage the "it's art" or "it looks cool" mentality.

                          I know a wonderful elderly monastic who can look at the work of an iconographer
                          and say, "so... are you still having problems about XYZ?" or "I'm really sorry
                          you were so troubled..."

                          I've been working on-again-off-again on a CA on iconography. It's hard to do in
                          B&W, though. I've also talked to Nicolaa about a TI article on the basics.

                          Effingham
                        • Jennifer Hill
                          But, my lord Effingham, we Welsh weren t Crusaders as a whole & the 4th Crusade is rather beyond my time... [being, as I am, a 12th C lady] It is truly
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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                            But, my lord Effingham, we Welsh weren't Crusaders as a whole & the 4th
                            Crusade is rather beyond my time... [being, as I am, a 12th C lady]
                            It is truly appalling & I agree that many were barbarians & beyond the
                            pale. They will be/have been brought before the Judgement which
                            furnishes a greater wrath than mine own could ever be.
                            I still love Ikons. Gwen

                            Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                            >Jennifer Hill wrote:
                            >
                            >>During & after the Crusades, do we find that Crusaders brought back
                            >>Ikons from Greece? Particular images being more popular?
                            >>Gwen verch Rhys
                            >>
                            >
                            >Icons weren't popular to bring back. Most of the icons at the time were part
                            >of the Church architecture. Unfortunately, the dastard crusaders *did* loot
                            >lots of churches and took back thousands of reliquaries and other things
                            >from the East.
                            >
                            >I suggest you look at the fourth crusade and the rape of Constantinople as
                            >an example of their behavior.
                            >
                            >Effingham
                            >Eastern Orthodox
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >----------------------------------------------------
                            >This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                            >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            >authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                            >
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                            >
                            >
                            >

                            --
                            Gwen verch Rhys of Gwynedd
                            Jennifer Hill
                            All manner of thing shall be well. Julian of Norwich
                          • Jennifer Hill
                            Dear Effingham... mundanely I am a Secular Discalced Carmelite. I do not seek them for kitsch, nor for decor, but as objects for veneration. Period. Gwen ...
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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                              Dear Effingham... mundanely I am a Secular Discalced Carmelite. I do
                              not seek them for kitsch, nor for decor, but as objects for veneration.
                              Period. Gwen

                              Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                              >Jennifer Hill wrote:
                              >
                              >>Thank you so much for the links! What about those of us in Wales??? I
                              >>don't think we fell into Crusading fever all that much, but I personally
                              >>adore Ikons & want one for my pavilion. <G> hugs, Gwen
                              >>
                              >
                              >Ummm... I know you don't mean ill, but....
                              >
                              >Icons are *not* kitsch. They're not chotchkies for interior decor. They're not
                              >pretty pictures.
                              >
                              >Icons are objects of devotion and veneration, and that is how they should be
                              >treated.
                              >
                              >Effingham
                              >(did I mention I was an iconographer?)
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >----------------------------------------------------
                              >This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                              >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              >authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              --
                              Gwen verch Rhys of Gwynedd
                              Jennifer Hill
                              All manner of thing shall be well. Julian of Norwich
                            • Jennifer Hill
                              Shall we not fight the Roman Catholic/Eastern ORthodox wars over, my lord? Surely, no good shall come of it. Gwen ... -- Gwen verch Rhys of Gwynedd Jennifer
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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                                Shall we not fight the Roman Catholic/Eastern ORthodox wars over, my
                                lord? Surely, no good shall come of it. Gwen

                                Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                                >Carolle M Cox wrote:
                                >
                                >>Ikons have existed since the advent of the Holy Roman Church and it's
                                >>spin-off the Eastern Orthodox Church. I'm quite sure (wink) one could make
                                >>it's way to Wales by your time!
                                >>
                                >
                                >Sorry. Other way around.
                                >
                                >
                                >Effingham
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >----------------------------------------------------
                                >This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                                >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                >authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                >
                                >
                                >

                                --
                                Gwen verch Rhys of Gwynedd
                                Jennifer Hill
                                All manner of thing shall be well. Julian of Norwich
                              • Zohra Rawling
                                --On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:09 PM -0600 Anthony J. Bryant ... I wish you would Effingham. I truly do. I would certainly attend. Maybe for pennsic?
                                Message 15 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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                                  --On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:09 PM -0600 "Anthony J. Bryant"
                                  <ajbryant@...> wrote:

                                  > I keep thinking about teaching a course on iconography, but it takes a
                                  > lot more time than just an hour. It would have to be one of those
                                  > multi-part courses... but an important part of it is, as you say, the
                                  > frame of mind and so on.

                                  I wish you would Effingham.

                                  I truly do.

                                  I would certainly attend.


                                  Maybe for pennsic?

                                  Although I can see all the difficulties of teaching that sort of thing.




                                  ysabella
                                • Zohra Rawling
                                  --On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:05 PM -0700 Jennifer Hill ... Thank you in that picture it was only half done and I then I gave it to my
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Apr 23, 2002
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                                    --On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:05 PM -0700 Jennifer Hill <jhill@...>
                                    wrote:

                                    > Ysabella: I love the one you did! Delightful!@ Gwen
                                    >
                                    >

                                    Thank you

                                    in that picture it was only half done and I then I gave it to my
                                    grandmother for Christmas when I finally finished it (but forgot to take a
                                    finished picture).

                                    When I am settled I will start work again.
                                    I have a St. George to finish and also I want to start a St. Cecelia for
                                    myself.


                                    Ysabella
                                  • rowen_g
                                    ... ... about ... going to paint ... still... ... mentality. Hmm... I suppose that s part of the overall view of this group - if one is going to do X
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Apr 24, 2002
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                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@i...> wrote:
                                      <snip>
                                      > Plus there is a certain concern in the mind of many iconographers
                                      about
                                      > teaching it to the heterodox. I'm a bit ambivalent; if someone's
                                      going to paint
                                      > an icon, they're going to paint one -- they should do it right. But
                                      still...
                                      > sigh. We don't want to encourage the "it's art" or "it looks cool"
                                      mentality.


                                      Hmm... I suppose that's part of the overall view of this group - if
                                      one is going to do X at all, one should do it right. :)

                                      Setting aside for a moment the religious part of the question (which I
                                      realize is hard to do, but only for a moment) it could be said that
                                      the "but it looks cool" attitude may sometimes be an enemy of accuracy
                                      in recreating any art form. (We can all think of some examples, I'm
                                      sure.) Ikons, at least to my eye, are art as well as religious
                                      objects. I am not myself a practicing Christian of any kind. I
                                      think ikons are lovely, but grant that I do not really understand
                                      them, and do not own any.

                                      There are objects and customs in most cultures - and religions - which
                                      are venerated or at least respected, and which are considered not for
                                      the use or viewing of outsiders. It's curious how often it seems to
                                      be that it is these very objects or customs which draw the attention
                                      of outsiders, and which are plundered or adopted by outsiders. (I'm
                                      not speaking of anyone here, ok? :) Some individuals are drawn to the
                                      aura, the ambiance, the "power," if you will, of someone else's
                                      mystery, and adopt the trappings without studying the belief, or
                                      culture, or discipline of which those trappings are an outward form.
                                      Thus "celtigoths;" thus some self-styled "bards."

                                      Granted that the "oo, pretty - want" instinct is strong in human kind
                                      in general. I do not see anything wrong in being *attracted* to a
                                      mystery of another culture. I do, however, feel that one should have
                                      to do some work to acquire substance as well as shadow.

                                      I suppose it could be argued that archetype-poaching is what the SCA
                                      *does.* Queen. King. Lady. Knight. Warrior. Bard. We are each
                                      attempting to recreate some small slice of medieval or Renaissance
                                      life. But I think there is a difference between "poaching" the
                                      trappings of a time, or place, or mystery, and studying, absorbing,
                                      and to some degree becoming, the archetype we seek to emulate.

                                      Thoughts? (Preparing to duck and run.)

                                      (This may of course all be too much philosophy on too little caffeine.
                                      ;)

                                      Rowen
                                    • Will Harrington
                                      Actually, I agree with you. It s not just our culture that goes after exotic spirituality. Just think of the Isis cult in Rome, or, heck, the growth of
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Apr 24, 2002
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                                        Actually, I agree with you. It's not just our culture that goes after
                                        exotic spirituality. Just think of the Isis cult in Rome, or, heck, the
                                        growth of Christianity, an Eastern religion, in the West. The Chinese and
                                        Japanese adopted an Indian system. Heck, a south pacific tribe found
                                        themselves coveting western cargo and airplanes (Though admittedly this was
                                        a practical as well as a spiritual cult). We, now, are really no different.

                                        Dorje
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "rowen_g" <rowengr@...>
                                        To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 8:38 AM
                                        Subject: [Authentic_SCA] getting philosophical, was: IKONS


                                        > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@i...> wrote:
                                        > <snip>
                                        > > Plus there is a certain concern in the mind of many iconographers
                                        > about
                                        > > teaching it to the heterodox. I'm a bit ambivalent; if someone's
                                        > going to paint
                                        > > an icon, they're going to paint one -- they should do it right. But
                                        > still...
                                        > > sigh. We don't want to encourage the "it's art" or "it looks cool"
                                        > mentality.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hmm... I suppose that's part of the overall view of this group - if
                                        > one is going to do X at all, one should do it right. :)
                                        >
                                        > Setting aside for a moment the religious part of the question (which I
                                        > realize is hard to do, but only for a moment) it could be said that
                                        > the "but it looks cool" attitude may sometimes be an enemy of accuracy
                                        > in recreating any art form. (We can all think of some examples, I'm
                                        > sure.) Ikons, at least to my eye, are art as well as religious
                                        > objects. I am not myself a practicing Christian of any kind. I
                                        > think ikons are lovely, but grant that I do not really understand
                                        > them, and do not own any.
                                        >
                                        > There are objects and customs in most cultures - and religions - which
                                        > are venerated or at least respected, and which are considered not for
                                        > the use or viewing of outsiders. It's curious how often it seems to
                                        > be that it is these very objects or customs which draw the attention
                                        > of outsiders, and which are plundered or adopted by outsiders. (I'm
                                        > not speaking of anyone here, ok? :) Some individuals are drawn to the
                                        > aura, the ambiance, the "power," if you will, of someone else's
                                        > mystery, and adopt the trappings without studying the belief, or
                                        > culture, or discipline of which those trappings are an outward form.
                                        > Thus "celtigoths;" thus some self-styled "bards."
                                        >
                                        > Granted that the "oo, pretty - want" instinct is strong in human kind
                                        > in general. I do not see anything wrong in being *attracted* to a
                                        > mystery of another culture. I do, however, feel that one should have
                                        > to do some work to acquire substance as well as shadow.
                                        >
                                        > I suppose it could be argued that archetype-poaching is what the SCA
                                        > *does.* Queen. King. Lady. Knight. Warrior. Bard. We are each
                                        > attempting to recreate some small slice of medieval or Renaissance
                                        > life. But I think there is a difference between "poaching" the
                                        > trappings of a time, or place, or mystery, and studying, absorbing,
                                        > and to some degree becoming, the archetype we seek to emulate.
                                        >
                                        > Thoughts? (Preparing to duck and run.)
                                        >
                                        > (This may of course all be too much philosophy on too little caffeine.
                                        > ;)
                                        >
                                        > Rowen
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----------------------------------------------------
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                                        > authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                        >
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                                      • marshamclean@rogers.com
                                        I find myself wondering if it is primarily the Christian church that is so concerned with non-religious use of its religious symbols. I am fascinated by India
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Apr 24, 2002
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                                          I find myself wondering if it is primarily the Christian church that is so concerned with non-religious use of its religious symbols. I am fascinated by India and Hindu culture. Merchants in Toronto's Indian neighborhoods appreciate my admiration of Hindu icons and do not seem concerned about my use for the objects should I purchase them. I also took an Icon banner to one of my friends for a better ID that I could do and he thought it would be great for me to hang it as art. Hindus that I know do seem to regard Hinduism more as a way of life than as a formal religion. Perhaps because their culture is so saturated with religion, and it is not as intellectualized as religion can be in the west.

                                          Anyone want to share their thoughts on this? Please realize that I do not mean to be inflammatory, or to upset anyone. I am thinking about these things and welcome others' thoughts.

                                          Madinia
                                          >
                                          > From: "Will Harrington" <dorje@...>
                                          > Date: 2002/04/24 Wed PM 04:48:06 GMT
                                          > To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] getting philosophical, was: IKONS
                                          >
                                          > Actually, I agree with you. It's not just our culture that goes after
                                          > exotic spirituality. Just think of the Isis cult in Rome, or, heck, the
                                          > growth of Christianity, an Eastern religion, in the West. The Chinese and
                                          > Japanese adopted an Indian system. Heck, a south pacific tribe found
                                          > themselves coveting western cargo and airplanes (Though admittedly this was
                                          > a practical as well as a spiritual cult). We, now, are really no different.
                                          >
                                          > Dorje
                                        • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                                          ... I can t speak for many other religions but we Jews can get downright ugly if someone messes with things we consider our religious objects. Remember, in
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Apr 24, 2002
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                                            At 05:33 PM 4/24/2002 +0000, you wrote:
                                            >I find myself wondering if it is primarily the Christian church that is so
                                            >concerned with non-religious use of its religious symbols.

                                            I can't speak for many other religions but we Jews can get downright ugly
                                            if someone messes with things we consider our religious objects. Remember,
                                            in some WWII camps, Jews were forced to tear their prayer shawls and make
                                            them into undergarments. Any piece of paper that has the name of G-d
                                            written on it is to be buried, not burnt or thrown out.

                                            Yup, we're occasionally fanatical (and I'm not talking about the current ME
                                            crap, so please don't try reading that into this post.)

                                            SMiles,
                                            Despina
                                          • Anthony J. Bryant
                                            ... Spiffers! I ve just known so many who actually *collect* them -- antiques, bought from (and stolen from churches years ago) Russian and other sources, who
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Apr 25, 2002
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                                              Jennifer Hill wrote:

                                              > Dear Effingham... mundanely I am a Secular Discalced Carmelite. I do
                                              > not seek them for kitsch, nor for decor, but as objects for veneration.
                                              > Period. Gwen

                                              Spiffers!

                                              I've just known so many who actually *collect* them -- antiques, bought from (and
                                              stolen from churches years ago) Russian and other sources, who think of them as
                                              pretty things to hang on walls. I still blanch seeing them in museums.

                                              Edward
                                            • Anthony J. Bryant
                                              ... It s a little late to plan a new class for Pennsic this year, I m afraid. But I think I will do a workshop next year -- a weeklong series beginning from
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Apr 25, 2002
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                                                Zohra Rawling wrote:

                                                > --On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:09 PM -0600 "Anthony J. Bryant"
                                                > <ajbryant@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > I keep thinking about teaching a course on iconography, but it takes a
                                                > > lot more time than just an hour. It would have to be one of those
                                                > > multi-part courses... but an important part of it is, as you say, the
                                                > > frame of mind and so on.
                                                >
                                                > I wish you would Effingham.
                                                >
                                                > I truly do.
                                                >
                                                > I would certainly attend.
                                                >
                                                > Maybe for pennsic?
                                                >
                                                > Although I can see all the difficulties of teaching that sort of thing.

                                                It's a little late to plan a new class for Pennsic this year, I'm afraid.
                                                But I think I will do a workshop next year -- a weeklong series beginning
                                                from conceptualization through painting.

                                                Thanks for the kick in the pants. <G>

                                                Effingham
                                              • Lynne Lowe
                                                Hi, I have a couple of questions on ikons in period, or more precisely in the period from the 1st crusade through the 4th crusade. My persona, a wealthy
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Apr 25, 2002
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                                                  Hi,
                                                  I have a couple of questions on ikons in period, or
                                                  more precisely in the period from the 1st crusade
                                                  through the 4th crusade. My persona, a wealthy
                                                  Anglo-Saxon / Norman matron of the late 12th. century
                                                  / early 13th. century, has a Byzantine connection
                                                  through her great-grandmother Helena's marriage to a
                                                  Anglo-Saxon / Norman crusader, during the 1st.
                                                  crusade. One of her most precious possessions and
                                                  wedding gift from her family was a tryptic with her
                                                  patron saint, Saint Helena, which I, as her namesake
                                                  received at her death. My first question is about who
                                                  or what would be traditionally paired with St. Helena?
                                                  Also would there be anyone or thing she would not be
                                                  paired with? I have found information on St. Helena
                                                  but not answers to these particular questions, with
                                                  reference to ikon images. As part of my persona I
                                                  would like to have such a tryptic but I don't want to
                                                  upset anyone who knows ikons with the pairings.
                                                  Is a print or photograph of a saint considered to
                                                  be a sacred ikon or is it only an actual painting done
                                                  by hand. In other words just what constitutes a proper
                                                  sacred ikon, and how does one treat it or handle it?
                                                  Just where should I look to find such information? Any
                                                  help would be greatly appreciated.

                                                  Many thanks,
                                                  Lena
                                                  Alycia Helena of Alcyone


                                                  --- Zohra Rawling <zisaac@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > ooo something I can speak on!
                                                  >
                                                  > the most popular was Christ, then virgin mary with
                                                  > child,
                                                  > nativity, St. Joseph and the betrothal or marriage
                                                  > of mary and joseph
                                                  > (biblical scenes) and archangels.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > then depending on where you were geographically you
                                                  > would see more of one
                                                  > saint than the other.
                                                  > for example St. George is very popular in the
                                                  > Russian area.

                                                  > any other questions?
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Ysabella
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >

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                                                • Anthony J. Bryant
                                                  ... Her son, St. Constantine the Great. Do a Google search on Ss. Constantine and Helen[a] and you ll find a humonguous pile of Orthodox Churches. She is
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Apr 25, 2002
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                                                    Lynne Lowe wrote:

                                                    > Hi,
                                                    > I have a couple of questions on ikons in period, or
                                                    > more precisely in the period from the 1st crusade
                                                    > through the 4th crusade. My persona, a wealthy
                                                    > Anglo-Saxon / Norman matron of the late 12th. century
                                                    > / early 13th. century, has a Byzantine connection
                                                    > through her great-grandmother Helena's marriage to a
                                                    > Anglo-Saxon / Norman crusader, during the 1st.
                                                    > crusade. One of her most precious possessions and
                                                    > wedding gift from her family was a tryptic with her
                                                    > patron saint, Saint Helena, which I, as her namesake
                                                    > received at her death. My first question is about who
                                                    > or what would be traditionally paired with St. Helena?

                                                    Her son, St. Constantine the Great. Do a Google search on "Ss. Constantine
                                                    and Helen[a]" and you'll find a humonguous pile of Orthodox Churches.

                                                    She is also often alone with the Cross, as she's the one who found it in
                                                    Jerusalem.

                                                    >
                                                    > Also would there be anyone or thing she would not be
                                                    > paired with?

                                                    In what way? Often you will find multiple-character icons, and these come in
                                                    two varieties: Natural groupings (e.g., Ss C&H, Ss. Peter and Paul, The
                                                    Three Hierarchs [Ss. John Chrysostom, Basil the Great, and Basil the
                                                    Theologian], Ss. Boris and Gleb, etc.); the other variety will divide the
                                                    panel into sections, and each section will have a different occupant
                                                    (essentially making a "compound" icon). In this second type, you can have
                                                    unconnected or ungrouped images.

                                                    In other words, on a single panel, in a single section, she wouldn't be
                                                    paired, typically, with anyone but St. Constantine. However, you might have
                                                    an icon of her with. St. Olga, who performed a similar function in Russia
                                                    (the mother of the ruler who pushed him into Orthodoxy; Ss. C&H are to
                                                    Greece as Ss. Olga and Vladimir are to Russia).

                                                    > I have found information on St. Helena
                                                    > but not answers to these particular questions, with
                                                    > reference to ikon images. As part of my persona I
                                                    > would like to have such a tryptic but I don't want to
                                                    > upset anyone who knows ikons with the pairings.

                                                    There's no reason you couldn't do a triptych. Typically, in this case, Ss.
                                                    C&H would be in one panel (L or R), Christ or the Theotokos or the two of
                                                    them in the center, and another saint or angel (often St. John the
                                                    Forerunner) in the other side. The side panels would often be looking toward
                                                    the center; this is called a Deisis. Alternately, you might have St. Helena
                                                    in one and St. Constantine in the other side. There is no reason, however,
                                                    you can't just have St. Helena in one panel and an unrelated saint in the
                                                    third; such triptychs are by default often "random groupings."

                                                    See http://www.sacredicons.com/trypticdeisis.html for a typical example.

                                                    >
                                                    > Is a print or photograph of a saint considered to
                                                    > be a sacred ikon or is it only an actual painting done
                                                    > by hand.

                                                    Typically, they're treated as icons whether printed or painted, mounted or
                                                    not. We don't wad them up, we don't throw them away, we don't step on them
                                                    or pile things on top of them. I know many churches don't use icons in
                                                    mailings because of this, and other churches have special drawers to collect
                                                    "old icon prints" which are either burnt or sent to very poor churches
                                                    overseas so that parishioners there can have icons of their own.

                                                    > In other words just what constitutes a proper
                                                    > sacred ikon, and how does one treat it or handle it?

                                                    That could take a whole book. <G>

                                                    Just treat it as something valuable and sacred. Don't abuse it.

                                                    >
                                                    > Just where should I look to find such information? Any
                                                    > help would be greatly appreciated.

                                                    This site has piles of links that may be of use:
                                                    http://aggreen.net/orth_links/orthlink.html

                                                    A specific site with piles of icon links is:
                                                    http://aggreen.net/orth_links/orthlink.html


                                                    Effingham
                                                  • Lynne Lowe
                                                    Thank you so very much! Your reply was very informative and quite useful. I would have replied sooner but I got lost in the links you provided. Fascinating
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Apr 26, 2002
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                                                      Thank you so very much!
                                                      Your reply was very informative and quite useful. I
                                                      would have replied sooner but I got lost in the links
                                                      you provided. Fascinating stuff! What little I knew of
                                                      ikons came from art history class in college, and this
                                                      information is so much more than that.
                                                      Thanks,
                                                      Lena
                                                      Alycia Helena du Alcyone

                                                      --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
                                                      > Lynne Lowe wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > Hi,
                                                      > > I have a couple of questions on ikons in period,
                                                      > or
                                                      > > more precisely in the period from the 1st crusade
                                                      > > through the 4th crusade. My persona, a wealthy
                                                      > > Anglo-Saxon / Norman matron of the late 12th.
                                                      > century
                                                      > > / early 13th. century, has a Byzantine connection
                                                      > > through her great-grandmother Helena's marriage
                                                      > to a
                                                      > > Anglo-Saxon / Norman crusader, during the 1st.
                                                      > > crusade. One of her most precious possessions and
                                                      > > wedding gift from her family was a tryptic with
                                                      > her
                                                      > > patron saint, Saint Helena, which I, as her
                                                      > namesake
                                                      > > received at her death. My first question is about
                                                      > who
                                                      > > or what would be traditionally paired with St.
                                                      > Helena?
                                                      >
                                                      > Her son, St. Constantine the Great. Do a Google
                                                      > search on "Ss. Constantine
                                                      > and Helen[a]" and you'll find a humonguous pile of
                                                      > Orthodox Churches.
                                                      >
                                                      > She is also often alone with the Cross, as she's the
                                                      > one who found it in
                                                      > Jerusalem.
                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Also would there be anyone or thing she would not
                                                      > be
                                                      > > paired with?
                                                      >
                                                      > In what way? Often you will find multiple-character
                                                      > icons, and these come in
                                                      > two varieties: Natural groupings (e.g., Ss C&H, Ss.
                                                      > Peter and Paul, The
                                                      > Three Hierarchs [Ss. John Chrysostom, Basil the
                                                      > Great, and Basil the
                                                      > Theologian], Ss. Boris and Gleb, etc.); the other
                                                      > variety will divide the
                                                      > panel into sections, and each section will have a
                                                      > different occupant
                                                      > (essentially making a "compound" icon). In this
                                                      > second type, you can have
                                                      > unconnected or ungrouped images.
                                                      >
                                                      > In other words, on a single panel, in a single
                                                      > section, she wouldn't be
                                                      > paired, typically, with anyone but St. Constantine.
                                                      > However, you might have
                                                      > an icon of her with. St. Olga, who performed a
                                                      > similar function in Russia
                                                      > (the mother of the ruler who pushed him into
                                                      > Orthodoxy; Ss. C&H are to
                                                      > Greece as Ss. Olga and Vladimir are to Russia).
                                                      >
                                                      > > I have found information on St. Helena
                                                      > > but not answers to these particular questions,
                                                      > with
                                                      > > reference to ikon images. As part of my persona I
                                                      > > would like to have such a tryptic but I don't want
                                                      > to
                                                      > > upset anyone who knows ikons with the pairings.
                                                      >
                                                      > There's no reason you couldn't do a triptych.
                                                      > Typically, in this case, Ss.
                                                      > C&H would be in one panel (L or R), Christ or the
                                                      > Theotokos or the two of
                                                      > them in the center, and another saint or angel
                                                      > (often St. John the
                                                      > Forerunner) in the other side. The side panels would
                                                      > often be looking toward
                                                      > the center; this is called a Deisis. Alternately,
                                                      > you might have St. Helena
                                                      > in one and St. Constantine in the other side. There
                                                      > is no reason, however,
                                                      > you can't just have St. Helena in one panel and an
                                                      > unrelated saint in the
                                                      > third; such triptychs are by default often "random
                                                      > groupings."
                                                      >
                                                      > See http://www.sacredicons.com/trypticdeisis.html
                                                      > for a typical example.
                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Is a print or photograph of a saint considered
                                                      > to
                                                      > > be a sacred ikon or is it only an actual painting
                                                      > done
                                                      > > by hand.
                                                      >
                                                      > Typically, they're treated as icons whether printed
                                                      > or painted, mounted or
                                                      > not. We don't wad them up, we don't throw them away,
                                                      > we don't step on them
                                                      > or pile things on top of them. I know many churches
                                                      > don't use icons in
                                                      > mailings because of this, and other churches have
                                                      > special drawers to collect
                                                      > "old icon prints" which are either burnt or sent to
                                                      > very poor churches
                                                      > overseas so that parishioners there can have icons
                                                      > of their own.
                                                      >
                                                      > > In other words just what constitutes a proper
                                                      > > sacred ikon, and how does one treat it or handle
                                                      > it?
                                                      >
                                                      > That could take a whole book. <G>
                                                      >
                                                      > Just treat it as something valuable and sacred.
                                                      > Don't abuse it.
                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Just where should I look to find such information?
                                                      > Any
                                                      > > help would be greatly appreciated.
                                                      >
                                                      > This site has piles of links that may be of use:
                                                      > http://aggreen.net/orth_links/orthlink.html
                                                      >
                                                      > A specific site with piles of icon links is:
                                                      > http://aggreen.net/orth_links/orthlink.html
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Effingham
                                                      >
                                                      >

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