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A&S critiques; random thoughts on the subject

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  • demontsegur
    Greetings List, I lurk here and rarely post, but felt like sharing an experience I once had... I entered an A&S competition in 1998 at Kingdom Crusades, the
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 2, 2002
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      Greetings List,

      I lurk here and rarely post, but felt like sharing an experience I
      once had...

      I entered an A&S competition in 1998 at Kingdom Crusades, the war
      between the East and Atlantia held each year in October. This was
      during my first year in the SCA, and I was on fire with garb-making.

      A talented acquaintance, Mathilde, had kindly copied for me three
      different TI articles on the subject of recreating the mysterious
      French bliaut. I had some fine scarlet silk and decided to whip up
      something bliaut-like the week before the event, with the intent of
      entering it for competition. I hurried, made mistakes, and didn't
      necessarily try to fix the mistakes very cleanly.

      In retrospect, what I entered was something that a) was poorly
      documented with tertiary sources only, b) was poorly executed,
      workmanship-wise, and c) had the cardinal sin of synthetic materials
      (rayon or some-such bias tape -- ick!). However, at the time, I was
      proud and loved it and thought the judges would too... <nostalgic
      smile>...

      Of course, I received middling marks and some blunt criticism as well
      as some encouraging criticism, but I was stung and unpleasantly
      surprised all the same. It wasn't easy, but I swallowed my overblown
      pride and spoke with one of the Atlantian judges, who'd urged me to
      find her and chat with her in her notes. I smiled, asked her for
      advice, and she was wonderful to me. I came away feeling not so bad
      in the end.

      Now, three and a half years later, I can honestly say that even the
      blunt judges were KIND to me. Out of ignorance, I had not event
      _remotely_ met the typical A&S standards, but yet, the judges hadn't
      detailed every small ill I'd perpetrated. They certainly could have,
      and it might even still have been constructively meant, but would I
      have constructively _accepted_ it?

      I think the missing piece for most people who have been stung by
      criticism, constructive or destructive alike, is that they are
      usually unaware of the standards. It's not like we all get an A&S
      primer when we join the SCA -- a primer that details EXACTLY how high
      the standards for authenticity and documentation are in competitions.
      What ends up happening is that honest, well-meaning judges become the
      messengers of bad news to well-meaning entrants. Said entrants want
      to shoot the well-meaning messengers. It's painful on both sides, I'm
      betting.

      Anyway, feel free to respond or ignore... and thank you for the
      bandwidth! (Somebody want to write that primer???)

      Marcele de Montsegur
    • ladybrynn
      I understand exactly what you mean. Int he east their aren t nice clean rules for someone to look up and know what is expected. If I had not had a mentor
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 2, 2002
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        I understand exactly what you mean. Int he east their aren't nice
        clean rules for someone to look up and know what is expected.
        If I had not had a mentor holding my hand through my first A&S
        competition the same thing would have happened to me.

        Mid Relm has wonderful A&S rules written down for all to see so the
        novice has a place to start. BUT it's only a start. This is the one
        area all peers really need to pitch in and help the novice with.
        Fine someone and mentor them.

        Having just judges several catagories at Northern Lights I know how
        much documentation will make or break an entrant. In one case I can
        think of it was a desiding factor between the winner and second place.
        That may not seem fair but when faced with two equally well done
        items telling me that you understand the how, what, where and when
        makes the difference.

        As a judge too I try to give help and encouragement along with the
        critisim. Not always an easy thing to do, but if you can continue to
        encourge someone that is perferable to loosing a talented craftsman.

        1st rule of A&S: You will cry your first time out! And no they don't
        hate you.

        2nd Rule of A&S: Once you have stopped crying reread the comments and
        learn where you went wrong.

        3rd rule of A&S: NEVER give up. Do it again only better.

        - Brynn

        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "demontsegur" <demontsegur@y...> wrote:
        > Greetings List,
        >
        > I lurk here and rarely post, but felt like sharing an experience I
        > once had...
        >
        > I entered an A&S competition in 1998 at Kingdom Crusades, the war
        > between the East and Atlantia held each year in October. This was
        > during my first year in the SCA, and I was on fire with garb-
        making.
        >
        > A talented acquaintance, Mathilde, had kindly copied for me three
        > different TI articles on the subject of recreating the mysterious
        > French bliaut. I had some fine scarlet silk and decided to whip up
        > something bliaut-like the week before the event, with the intent of
        > entering it for competition. I hurried, made mistakes, and didn't
        > necessarily try to fix the mistakes very cleanly.
        >
        > In retrospect, what I entered was something that a) was poorly
        > documented with tertiary sources only, b) was poorly executed,
        > workmanship-wise, and c) had the cardinal sin of synthetic
        materials
        > (rayon or some-such bias tape -- ick!). However, at the time, I was
        > proud and loved it and thought the judges would too... <nostalgic
        > smile>...
        >
        > Of course, I received middling marks and some blunt criticism as
        well
        > as some encouraging criticism, but I was stung and unpleasantly
        > surprised all the same. It wasn't easy, but I swallowed my
        overblown
        > pride and spoke with one of the Atlantian judges, who'd urged me to
        > find her and chat with her in her notes. I smiled, asked her for
        > advice, and she was wonderful to me. I came away feeling not so bad
        > in the end.
        >
        > Now, three and a half years later, I can honestly say that even the
        > blunt judges were KIND to me. Out of ignorance, I had not event
        > _remotely_ met the typical A&S standards, but yet, the judges
        hadn't
        > detailed every small ill I'd perpetrated. They certainly could
        have,
        > and it might even still have been constructively meant, but would I
        > have constructively _accepted_ it?
        >
        > I think the missing piece for most people who have been stung by
        > criticism, constructive or destructive alike, is that they are
        > usually unaware of the standards. It's not like we all get an A&S
        > primer when we join the SCA -- a primer that details EXACTLY how
        high
        > the standards for authenticity and documentation are in
        competitions.
        > What ends up happening is that honest, well-meaning judges become
        the
        > messengers of bad news to well-meaning entrants. Said entrants want
        > to shoot the well-meaning messengers. It's painful on both sides,
        I'm
        > betting.
        >
        > Anyway, feel free to respond or ignore... and thank you for the
        > bandwidth! (Somebody want to write that primer???)
        >
        > Marcele de Montsegur
      • Tatsushu .
        ... Actually, I didn t have this experience. Then again, I was the one telling the judges about every awful little bit of inaccurate shortcut, sidestep,
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 2, 2002
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          >1st rule of A&S: You will cry your first time out! And no they don't
          >hate you.
          >
          >2nd Rule of A&S: Once you have stopped crying reread the comments and
          >learn where you went wrong.

          Actually, I didn't have this experience. Then again, I was the one telling
          the judges about every awful little bit of inaccurate shortcut, sidestep,
          contingency, etc. that I had taken on the piece for one reason or another
          and then almost didn't want to accept anything because my documentation,
          although it explained what everything was (in handwritten pages, cause I had
          printer problems), didn't really give any good EVIDENCE one way or another
          that it was either period OR that it was done correctly (where I claimed it
          was correct, at least).

          Of course, being the only one with documentation helped.

          >3rd rule of A&S: NEVER give up. Do it again only better.

          No. Do something new! Actually, there is this wonderful jinbaori I want to
          do next, with several sources including color pics and a disassembly of the
          garment pieces and how they were put together. Just need to translate the
          bit about what kind of cloth was used and I'm set!

          -Ii

          _________________________________________________________________
          MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
          http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
        • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
          ... The Middle Kingdom has a set of criteria that can be accessed on the web or asked for or sent for from any MoAS. If one reads the criteria *then* does the
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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            At 04:53 PM 4/2/2002 +0000, you wrote:
            >I think the missing piece for most people who have been stung by
            >criticism, constructive or destructive alike, is that they are
            >usually unaware of the standards. It's not like we all get an A&S
            >primer when we join the SCA -- a primer that details EXACTLY how high
            >the standards for authenticity and documentation are in competitions.
            >What ends up happening is that honest, well-meaning judges become the
            >messengers of bad news to well-meaning entrants. Said entrants want
            >to shoot the well-meaning messengers. It's painful on both sides, I'm
            >betting.

            The Middle Kingdom has a set of criteria that can be accessed on the web or
            asked for or sent for from any MoAS. If one reads the criteria *then* does
            the work, it will come out much better. If one does the work, then reads
            the criteria, at least one will have a better idea of how to write the
            documentation and what to expect for scores.

            SMiles,
            Despina
          • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
            ... Along these lines, the Middle Kingdom has also recently (started last year) begun doing face to face judging. Now all three of the judges and the
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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              At 05:48 PM 4/2/2002 +0000, you wrote:
              >Of course, I received middling marks and some blunt criticism as
              >well
              > > as some encouraging criticism, but I was stung and unpleasantly
              > > surprised all the same. It wasn't easy, but I swallowed my
              >overblown
              > > pride and spoke with one of the Atlantian judges, who'd urged me to
              > > find her and chat with her in her notes. I smiled, asked her for
              > > advice, and she was wonderful to me. I came away feeling not so bad
              > > in the end.

              Along these lines, the Middle Kingdom has also recently (started last year)
              begun doing face to face judging. Now all three of the judges and the
              participant have to agree to it before hand, but I had it for two items
              this past A&S and it was much better than just written comments with no face.

              Smiles,
              Despina
            • ladybrynn
              You were lucky. So often I see someone that has put their heart and soul into a piece, but didn t do enough research or understand the importance of using
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                You were lucky. So often I see someone that has put their heart and
                soul into a piece, but didn't do enough research or understand the
                importance of using period materials. Or even worse not provide
                documentation. I see them in tears afterwards because they didn't win
                or scored badly. So often it scares them away from ever trying again
                when they should look at it as a learning experience.

                Now your Jinbaori, tell me more, this sounds very intriging.

                - Brynn

                --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Tatsushu ." <Tatsushu@h...> wrote:

                >
                > Actually, I didn't have this experience. Then again, I was the one
                telling
                > the judges about every awful little bit of inaccurate shortcut,
                sidestep,
                > contingency, etc. that I had taken on the piece for one reason or
                another
                > and then almost didn't want to accept anything because my
                documentation,
                > although it explained what everything was (in handwritten pages,
                cause I had
                > printer problems), didn't really give any good EVIDENCE one way or
                another
                > that it was either period OR that it was done correctly (where I
                claimed it
                > was correct, at least).
                >
                > Of course, being the only one with documentation helped.
                >
                > >3rd rule of A&S: NEVER give up. Do it again only better.
                >
                > No. Do something new! Actually, there is this wonderful jinbaori
                I want to
                > do next, with several sources including color pics and a
                disassembly of the
                > garment pieces and how they were put together. Just need to
                translate the
                > bit about what kind of cloth was used and I'm set!
                >
                > -Ii
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
              • demontsegur
                ... last year) ... the ... items ... with no face. ... A-Hah! So, we re getting to another key problem: that of written critiques. How many times have we all
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" <aheilvei@u...>
                  wrote:
                  > Along these lines, the Middle Kingdom has also recently (started
                  last year)
                  > begun doing face to face judging. Now all three of the judges and
                  the
                  > participant have to agree to it before hand, but I had it for two
                  items
                  > this past A&S and it was much better than just written comments
                  with no face.
                  >
                  > Smiles,
                  > Despina

                  A-Hah! So, we're getting to another key problem: that of written
                  critiques. How many times have we all marveled at the way someone's
                  email has insulted, annoyed, or otherwise inflamed someone else who
                  read it? Two people who in face-to-face conversation can get along
                  wonderfully might end up hating each other through email...

                  I posit that the written word is a scary tool when it comes to A&S
                  judging for the same reason. Even carefully constructed notes can
                  come across cold and 'uncaring', I'm betting. Meanwhile, that same
                  judge could stand there with the entrant, say the same things with
                  more wording, with eye contact, a friendly smile, a soothing tone,
                  and the entrant will nod vigorously, saying "Oh! I didn't realize
                  that!" and will listen gratefully. It's the magic of polite social
                  interaction -- and it's lost completely in the written word. (This
                  from a woman who writes for a living... Ai!)

                  Marcele
                • rowen_g
                  ... Probably a Very Good Point.(TM) There seems to have been a shift in this area away from attempted anonymous judging (and how *does* one do that for
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "demontsegur" <demontsegur@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > A-Hah! So, we're getting to another key problem: that of written
                    > critiques. How many times have we all marveled at the way someone's
                    > email has insulted, annoyed, or otherwise inflamed someone else who
                    > read it? Two people who in face-to-face conversation can get along
                    > wonderfully might end up hating each other through email...
                    >
                    > I posit that the written word is a scary tool when it comes to A&S
                    > judging for the same reason. Even carefully constructed notes can
                    > come across cold and 'uncaring', I'm betting. Meanwhile, that same
                    > judge could stand there with the entrant, say the same things with
                    > more wording, with eye contact, a friendly smile, a soothing tone,
                    > and the entrant will nod vigorously, saying "Oh! I didn't realize
                    > that!" and will listen gratefully. It's the magic of polite social
                    > interaction -- and it's lost completely in the written word. (This
                    > from a woman who writes for a living... Ai!)


                    Probably a Very Good Point.(TM) There seems to have been a shift in
                    this area away from attempted "anonymous" judging (and how *does* one
                    do that for performances...?) to face-to-face judging. I think it
                    makes the process easier and more understandable on both sides, and as
                    you say leads to fewer misunderstandings. (I'm still wondering about
                    the person who left me a comment on a necklace which I had string on
                    German silk beading thread, "next time use real stringing thread.")

                    Rowen
                  • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                    ... Hey, my last go-round it was really nice of one of the judges to suggest I use real vellum next time. Particularly since the piece was done on real vellum
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                      At 04:52 PM 4/3/2002 +0000, you wrote:
                      >I'm still wondering about
                      >the person who left me a comment on a necklace which I had string on
                      >German silk beading thread, "next time use real stringing thread.")

                      Hey, my last go-round it was really nice of one of the judges to suggest I
                      use real vellum next time. Particularly since the piece was done on real
                      vellum - and the documentation said it was vellum. *sigh*

                      Smiles,
                      Despina
                    • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                      ... Yes, the only problem I see with it is that it takes longer. Smiles, Despina
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                        At 04:52 PM 4/3/2002 +0000, you wrote:
                        >Probably a Very Good Point.(TM) There seems to have been a shift in
                        >this area away from attempted "anonymous" judging (and how *does* one
                        >do that for performances...?) to face-to-face judging. I think it
                        >makes the process easier and more understandable on both sides, and as
                        >you say leads to fewer misunderstandings.

                        Yes, the only problem I see with it is that it takes longer.

                        Smiles,
                        Despina
                      • ladybrynn
                        I will admit it gets very hard to work things in a mannor that will not be insulting, especailly if you have many items to judge and time gets short. One
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                          I will admit it gets very hard to work things in a mannor that will
                          not be insulting, especailly if you have many items to judge and time
                          gets short. One reason I always "try" to compliment work at the same
                          time as I make them down for something.

                          The best feed back I've gotten has always been afterwards when I was
                          able to talk to either the Judges or just others that do the same
                          work. Oddly enough tokens I've been given for my work have meant as
                          much or even more to me then simply winning a competition. Maybe it's
                          because I've been able to talk to those people and get substantial
                          feedback. For someone to single me out and praise my work I find is
                          one of the single highest compliments I can receive.

                          For all you peers out there (kingdom level or more) Tokens are
                          wonderful. They really do mean quite a alot to those you give them to.
                          Especially when you are unable to talk face to face the compliment
                          comes through.

                          - Brynn
                          >


                          > A-Hah! So, we're getting to another key problem: that of written
                          > critiques. How many times have we all marveled at the way someone's
                          > email has insulted, annoyed, or otherwise inflamed someone else who
                          > read it? Two people who in face-to-face conversation can get along
                          > wonderfully might end up hating each other through email...
                          >
                          > I posit that the written word is a scary tool when it comes to A&S
                          > judging for the same reason. Even carefully constructed notes can
                          > come across cold and 'uncaring', I'm betting. Meanwhile, that same
                          > judge could stand there with the entrant, say the same things with
                          > more wording, with eye contact, a friendly smile, a soothing tone,
                          > and the entrant will nod vigorously, saying "Oh! I didn't realize
                          > that!" and will listen gratefully. It's the magic of polite social
                          > interaction -- and it's lost completely in the written word. (This
                          > from a woman who writes for a living... Ai!)
                          >
                          > Marcele
                        • ladybrynn
                          I know they were being in period and didn t know how to read! - Brynn ... suggest I ... on real
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                            I know they were being in period and didn't know how to read!

                            - Brynn

                            >
                            > Hey, my last go-round it was really nice of one of the judges to
                            suggest I
                            > use real vellum next time. Particularly since the piece was done
                            on real
                            > vellum - and the documentation said it was vellum. *sigh*
                            >
                            > Smiles,
                            > Despina
                          • rowen_g
                            ... time gets short. It does indeed. Last fall at Kingdom A&S I had four items entered, and was judging 12, plus having been drafted for judging an unofficial
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                              --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "ladybrynn" <s_krasley@r...> wrote:
                              > I will admit it gets very hard to work things in a mannor that will
                              > not be insulting, especailly if you have many items to judge and
                              time gets short.

                              It does indeed. Last fall at Kingdom A&S I had four items entered,
                              and was judging 12, plus having been drafted for judging an unofficial
                              sonnet contest. (That was the day I decided to take a few years off
                              entering, and just offer to judge as much as possible.)

                              >One reason I always "try" to compliment work at the same
                              > time as I make them down for something.

                              I know - I always try to "sweeten" a criticism, even if the article is
                              pretty far out in 20th century field. ("That's a lovely color for
                              you, my lady - tell me a little more about your gown. I'm afraid I
                              don't quite recognize the style." Who knows, a new person may have
                              found the source I've been searching for for years.)

                              > The best feed back I've gotten has always been afterwards when I was
                              > able to talk to either the Judges or just others that do the same
                              > work. Oddly enough tokens I've been given for my work have meant as
                              > much or even more to me then simply winning a competition. Maybe
                              it's
                              > because I've been able to talk to those people and get substantial
                              > feedback. For someone to single me out and praise my work I find is
                              > one of the single highest compliments I can receive.

                              Sometimes it's better to have the good opinion of a person you respect
                              than to "win." :)

                              > For all you peers out there (kingdom level or more) Tokens are
                              > wonderful. They really do mean quite a alot to those you give them
                              to.
                              > Especially when you are unable to talk face to face the compliment
                              > comes through.

                              I've take to carrying various sorts of tokens at most events, not just
                              A&S ones. For example, at 12th Night another lady & I tracked down the
                              teenaged girls who were serving our tables, and gave them "thank-you"
                              tokens for especially good table service (fans and wrapped-up scented
                              bath-cubes, iirc.) For A&S events I like to use little green glass
                              leaf-pendants; some folk are getting enough to make themselves a
                              necklace. ;) A friend of mine keeps a supply of nice small things
                              appropriate for children, and gives one to any lad or lass who catches
                              her attention as being particularly well behaved that day. Our local
                              Crown has the custom of calling into court all folk who are attending
                              their first event, and giving out little "welcome" tokens.

                              Rowen
                            • ladymorwenna
                              ... [etc.] ... I think tokens are a lovely idea. Yevsha carries a small pouch of goodies, mostly rings, to give away in recognition of good services, courteous
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                                > I've take to carrying various sorts of tokens at most events, not
                                > just A&S ones. For example, at 12th Night another lady & I tracked
                                > down the teenaged girls who were serving our tables, and gave them
                                > "thank-you" tokens for especially good table service (fans and
                                > wrapped-up scented bath-cubes, iirc.)
                                [etc.]
                                >
                                > Rowen

                                I think tokens are a lovely idea. Yevsha carries a small pouch of
                                goodies, mostly rings, to give away in recognition of good services,
                                courteous acts, fine performances, or whatever he likes. He once gave
                                one to a 7 year old boy for not arguing about bedtime. : )

                                What has surprised me is that people are so touched by the gesture. I
                                know more than one person who wears their ring (or armband, etc.)
                                years later as a treasured item.

                                I think it's something more people should do. Rewarding skill and
                                service isn't just a job for the royalty.

                                Morwenna
                                who usually wears an extra ring, just in case.
                              • L Joseph
                                ... It s sort of the Japanese equivalent of the surcoat. I was thinking of making one for a friend who does Japanese, but he s had recent health problems and
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                                  --- ladybrynn <s_krasley@...> wrote:
                                  > Now your Jinbaori, tell me more, this sounds very
                                  > intriging.

                                  It's sort of the Japanese equivalent of the surcoat. I
                                  was thinking of making one for a friend who does
                                  Japanese, but he's had recent health problems and it's
                                  doubtful he'll be fighting again.

                                  Found this image of a 16th century wool jinbaori
                                  on-line.
                                  http://www.tnm.go.jp/scripts/col/MOD1.en.idc?X=I393

                                  And this one, also 16th century, in leather:
                                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/36.htm

                                  And this opulent silk one:
                                  http://www.kyohaku.go.jp/meihin/senshoku/mht114e.htm

                                  Jehanne

                                  =====
                                  "I do but sing because I must, And pipe but as the linnets sing."
                                  Alfred, Lord Tennyson, "In Memoriam."

                                  __________________________________________________
                                  Do You Yahoo!?
                                  Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
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                                • wodeford
                                  ... I agree, and it s something I ve been meaning to start doing myself. I remember how nice it felt when somebody from the camp across the way walked up to me
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "ladymorwenna" <ladymorwenna@y...> wrote:
                                    > I think it's something more people should do. Rewarding skill and
                                    > service isn't just a job for the royalty.

                                    I agree, and it's something I've been meaning to start doing myself.
                                    I remember how nice it felt when somebody from the camp across the
                                    way walked up to me and gave me a Snickers bar because he enjoyed my
                                    playing. "Wow, a paid gig!" I value that memory just as much as the
                                    tokens received from Queens Marieke and Jana and Princess Roxane
                                    (East) for performances with the Tropes.

                                    BTW, at their investiture in January, their Highnesses of Cynagua
                                    (West) presented the members of their guard with brass brooches
                                    inscribed with a Latin motto about excellence (can't remember exactly
                                    what it was) and told them that if they encounter anyone who inspires
                                    them to pass on the brooch.

                                    Everybody appreciates a pat on the back.

                                    Jehanne
                                  • ladybrynn
                                    OOooooo Pretty. What a very interesting piece. That silk couldn t have been worn for fighting, could it? - Brynn
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                                      OOooooo Pretty. What a very interesting piece.
                                      That silk couldn't have been worn for fighting, could it?

                                      - Brynn


                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., L Joseph <wodeford@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- ladybrynn <s_krasley@r...> wrote:
                                      > > Now your Jinbaori, tell me more, this sounds very
                                      > > intriging.
                                      >
                                      > It's sort of the Japanese equivalent of the surcoat. I
                                      > was thinking of making one for a friend who does
                                      > Japanese, but he's had recent health problems and it's
                                      > doubtful he'll be fighting again.
                                      >
                                      > Found this image of a 16th century wool jinbaori
                                      > on-line.
                                      > http://www.tnm.go.jp/scripts/col/MOD1.en.idc?X=I393
                                      >
                                      > And this one, also 16th century, in leather:
                                      > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/36.htm
                                      >
                                      > And this opulent silk one:
                                      > http://www.kyohaku.go.jp/meihin/senshoku/mht114e.htm
                                      >
                                      > Jehanne
                                      >
                                      > =====
                                      > "I do but sing because I must, And pipe but as the linnets sing."
                                      > Alfred, Lord Tennyson, "In Memoriam."
                                      >
                                      > __________________________________________________
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                                      > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
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                                    • Tatsushu .
                                      ... I think I tear my own heart out, throw it on the floor, and kick it around a little bit before entering stuff in competition. Hey, gives it that period
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                                        >You were lucky. So often I see someone that has put their heart and
                                        >soul into a piece, but didn't do enough research or understand the
                                        >importance of using period materials. Or even worse not provide
                                        >documentation. I see them in tears afterwards because they didn't win
                                        >or scored badly. So often it scares them away from ever trying again
                                        >when they should look at it as a learning experience.

                                        I think I tear my own heart out, throw it on the floor, and kick it around a
                                        little bit before entering stuff in competition. Hey, gives it that 'period
                                        rugged' look, right ;)

                                        >Now your Jinbaori, tell me more, this sounds very intriging.

                                        Listed in "Armor and Costumes: Unique Style of the 16th and 17th Century
                                        Warlords" (Japanese with some English translations) it is listed as
                                        Hirashaji Sode-susobetsu-dzuke Jinbaori, a 16th century Jinbaori belonging
                                        to the Nambu family. What was initially interesting to me was the very
                                        'European' look to the garment. It was of scarlet wool, with yellow trim
                                        around the different 'parts' of the garment. One of the really interesting
                                        things was the way it can be worn in several different manners. This was
                                        done (as I found out later) by using small buttons through tiny loops (kind
                                        of like hooks and eyes, I guess).

                                        The main body of the garment is almost a square vest, open in the front,
                                        which overlaps slightly, and flaring towards the bottom. The collar around
                                        the neck is seperate from the piece that travels down the body, and it is
                                        split into tails in the back.

                                        Two large sleeves can be attached to the sides, as can a long swath of cloth
                                        at the bottom, whose name I forget at the moment.

                                        In all, the original garment was 124.7 centimeters from the top of the
                                        collar to the bottom hem, and 67.35 cm from the back of the neck to the hem
                                        of the sleeve.

                                        -Ii

                                        Thus, I was not too terribly surprised to find it in another book, "Nanban
                                        fukushoku no kenkyuu", a study on the impact of western clothing on the
                                        Japanese garment culture.

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                                      • Tatsushu .
                                        My guess would be that it depends on the person and what kind of fighting they are doing. If they were sitting somewhere and mostly directing things, I
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                                          My guess would be that it depends on the person and what kind of 'fighting'
                                          they are doing. If they were sitting somewhere and mostly directing things,
                                          I imagine it would have been. I know that the crossed rakes was used--I
                                          believe that was Kobayakawa's at the Battle of Sekigahara. The one shown on
                                          the armor I also imagine would have been worn. The heavy brocade--probably
                                          depends.

                                          Nonetheless, looking good and distinctive seems to have been a part of
                                          Japanese warfare.

                                          -Ii

                                          >
                                          >OOooooo Pretty. What a very interesting piece.
                                          >That silk couldn't have been worn for fighting, could it?
                                          >
                                          >- Brynn
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >--- In Authentic_SCA@y..., L Joseph <wodeford@y...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > --- ladybrynn <s_krasley@r...> wrote:
                                          > > > Now your Jinbaori, tell me more, this sounds very
                                          > > > intriging.
                                          > >
                                          > > It's sort of the Japanese equivalent of the surcoat. I
                                          > > was thinking of making one for a friend who does
                                          > > Japanese, but he's had recent health problems and it's
                                          > > doubtful he'll be fighting again.
                                          > >
                                          > > Found this image of a 16th century wool jinbaori
                                          > > on-line.
                                          > > http://www.tnm.go.jp/scripts/col/MOD1.en.idc?X=I393
                                          > >
                                          > > And this one, also 16th century, in leather:
                                          > > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/36.htm
                                          > >
                                          > > And this opulent silk one:
                                          > > http://www.kyohaku.go.jp/meihin/senshoku/mht114e.htm
                                          > >
                                          > > Jehanne
                                          > >
                                          > > =====
                                          > > "I do but sing because I must, And pipe but as the linnets sing."
                                          > > Alfred, Lord Tennyson, "In Memoriam."
                                          > >
                                          > > __________________________________________________
                                          > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                          > > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
                                          > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • Will Harrington
                                          I d be really impressed if you could string a necklace on unreal stringing thread. Just imagine the power that would take to convince the beads to line up and
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                                            I'd be really impressed if you could string a necklace on unreal stringing
                                            thread. Just imagine the power that would take to convince the beads to
                                            line up and hang together just so with naught but air holding them together.

                                            Dorje
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "rowen_g" <rowengr@...>
                                            To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 8:52 AM
                                            Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: A&S critiques; the written word


                                            > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "demontsegur" <demontsegur@y...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > A-Hah! So, we're getting to another key problem: that of written
                                            > > critiques. How many times have we all marveled at the way someone's
                                            > > email has insulted, annoyed, or otherwise inflamed someone else who
                                            > > read it? Two people who in face-to-face conversation can get along
                                            > > wonderfully might end up hating each other through email...
                                            > >
                                            > > I posit that the written word is a scary tool when it comes to A&S
                                            > > judging for the same reason. Even carefully constructed notes can
                                            > > come across cold and 'uncaring', I'm betting. Meanwhile, that same
                                            > > judge could stand there with the entrant, say the same things with
                                            > > more wording, with eye contact, a friendly smile, a soothing tone,
                                            > > and the entrant will nod vigorously, saying "Oh! I didn't realize
                                            > > that!" and will listen gratefully. It's the magic of polite social
                                            > > interaction -- and it's lost completely in the written word. (This
                                            > > from a woman who writes for a living... Ai!)
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Probably a Very Good Point.(TM) There seems to have been a shift in
                                            > this area away from attempted "anonymous" judging (and how *does* one
                                            > do that for performances...?) to face-to-face judging. I think it
                                            > makes the process easier and more understandable on both sides, and as
                                            > you say leads to fewer misunderstandings. (I'm still wondering about
                                            > the person who left me a comment on a necklace which I had string on
                                            > German silk beading thread, "next time use real stringing thread.")
                                            >
                                            > Rowen
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                          • Will Harrington
                                            ... Or maybe they didn t consider it documented if the name of the lamb that donated the vellum wasn t given? Dorje
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Apr 3, 2002
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                                              > I know they were being in period and didn't know how to read!
                                              >
                                              > - Brynn
                                              Or maybe they didn't consider it documented if the name of the lamb that
                                              "donated" the vellum wasn't given?

                                              Dorje
                                            • Carolle M Cox
                                              Hear, Hear!!! I cherish the little Japanese beads and my daughter truly appreciated the candy from our last effort. Especially because the judging schedule
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Apr 4, 2002
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                                                Hear, Hear!!! I cherish the little Japanese beads and my daughter truly
                                                appreciated the candy from our last effort. Especially because the judging
                                                schedule got messed over and we were both away from the table (i teaching,
                                                my daughter doing what teens do) when the judges stopped by.

                                                Gerita

                                                > For all you peers out there (kingdom level or more) Tokens are
                                                > wonderful. They really do mean quite a alot to those you give them to.
                                                > Especially when you are unable to talk face to face the compliment
                                                > comes through.
                                                >
                                                > - Brynn
                                              • maud_de_clayton
                                                ... wrote: ... the web or ... *then* does ... reads ... the ... Kudos to the Middle Kingdom for their criteria! I stumbled on the web site a couple of
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Apr 8, 2002
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                                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" <aheilvei@u...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  <snip>
                                                  >
                                                  > The Middle Kingdom has a set of criteria that can be accessed on
                                                  the web or
                                                  > asked for or sent for from any MoAS. If one reads the criteria
                                                  *then* does
                                                  > the work, it will come out much better. If one does the work, then
                                                  reads
                                                  > the criteria, at least one will have a better idea of how to write
                                                  the
                                                  > documentation and what to expect for scores.
                                                  >
                                                  Kudos to the Middle Kingdom for their criteria!

                                                  I stumbled on the web site a couple of years ago, and when we were
                                                  revising the A&S Manual for Adria, I relied upon it heavily to
                                                  develop matrices for scoring the "Scope" portion of both cooking and
                                                  weaving entries. It was a tremendous help, because the matrices
                                                  needed to cover a broad range of abilities, from rank beginners to
                                                  Laurel-level. We've used them for the past year, and the matrices are
                                                  pretty accurate.

                                                  Please pass along my heart-felt thanks to all the people that put it
                                                  together.

                                                  Maud
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