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Re:Talented until proven guilty, was OT: West Kingdom...

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  • wodeford
    ... Meant to respond to this earlier, and got sidetracked. How do they know that I m any GOOD at playing a hurdy gurdy? For that matter, Maud, how do you know?
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 1, 2002
      --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "maud_de_clayton" <dtjacobson@y...> wrote:
      > Dang! Sorry I missed it! I mentioned to a couple people I know that
      > you play a hurdygurdy, and they were mightily impressed. ;-)

      Meant to respond to this earlier, and got sidetracked. How do they
      know that I'm any GOOD at playing a hurdy gurdy? For that matter,
      Maud, how do you know? You've never actually heard me produce a note
      of music. ;-> I talk the talk, but do you really know if I walk the
      walk?

      I remember introducing myself on a bardic e-list awhile back and
      having a total stranger from a kingdom I've never been to tell me
      what a great bard I am without having anything to go on except my
      introductory e-mail.

      NOT that this is a Bad Thing (TM). But it definitely appears to be an
      SCA Thing. If a rank amateur shows up at open mike night, he faces
      the real risk of being booed off the stage. At an SCA bardic circle,
      he is guaranteed a courteous reception, polite applause,
      encouragement - no matter what his skill level. That's because the
      bardic circle audience has been there - battled the stage fright,
      forgotten the words, etc. My first bardic performance was such a
      disaster (I got the shakes so bad I could barely play) that friends
      and strangers alike came up to me for the rest of the event to ask if
      I was OK. Another time (Morwenna will remember this one), I saw a
      storyteller bolt from the room, be hotly pursued by Master John
      Lyttleton who evidently had some encouraging words for him, come back
      at the end of the round, get through his story, receive a hearty
      round of applause AND come back to tell another tale in round two.

      Just another one of those things that makes me go "Hmmm,"

      Jehanne
    • Sarah Michele Ford
      ... I d say that it s not just a bardic thing - look at how people with various awards are encouraged to bring tokens to A&S competitions to give to entries
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 1, 2002
        On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, wodeford wrote:

        > NOT that this is a Bad Thing (TM). But it definitely appears to be an
        > SCA Thing. If a rank amateur shows up at open mike night, he faces
        > the real risk of being booed off the stage. At an SCA bardic circle,
        > he is guaranteed a courteous reception, polite applause,
        > encouragement - no matter what his skill level. That's because the
        > bardic circle audience has been there - battled the stage fright,
        > forgotten the words, etc. My first bardic performance was such a
        > disaster (I got the shakes so bad I could barely play) that friends
        > and strangers alike came up to me for the rest of the event to ask if
        > I was OK. Another time (Morwenna will remember this one), I saw a
        > storyteller bolt from the room, be hotly pursued by Master John
        > Lyttleton who evidently had some encouraging words for him, come back
        > at the end of the round, get through his story, receive a hearty
        > round of applause AND come back to tell another tale in round two.

        I'd say that it's not just a bardic thing - look at how people with
        various awards are encouraged to bring tokens to A&S competitions to give
        to entries that particularly impress them. I saw this work to great
        effect at Northern Lights a few weeks ago - during the awards
        presentation, we were standing with a member of our Barony who tends to be
        shy and lack self-confidence. Her artwork, however, is incredible. She
        didn't win her category, but immediately after the presentations were
        over, a Laurel (who I recognized but don't know by name) came up to her
        and told her that her work was by far the strongest entry in the cateogory
        artistically, but that she needed to work on her documentation and other
        "competition nonsense." I just wanted to hug that Laurel, because Rebecca
        was so happy - it's encouragement like that that keeps people from giving
        up.

        I'd also link such behavior to our focus on teaching - not even the SCA as
        an educational nonprofit, but the fact that, at least among the A&S folks
        I know, teaching either on the individual level or the group level (with
        classes and such) tends to be very much encouraged and highly valued.
        Getting people who are nervous to perform facilitates the teaching aspect.

        Plus we're all supposed to be friends, right? ;^P

        Alianor

        Sarah Michele Ford
        /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
        Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
        reality is but an exception.
        --Jean Baudrillard
        \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
      • L Joseph
        ... OK, that s true. I m curious, however, as to whether the talented until proven guilty phenomenon applies to the other arts and sciences? ... True, and
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 1, 2002
          --- Sarah Michele Ford <sarah@...> wrote:
          > I'd say that it's not just a bardic thing - look at
          > how people with
          > various awards are encouraged to bring tokens to A&S
          > competitions to give
          > to entries that particularly impress them.
          OK, that's true. I'm curious, however, as to whether
          the "talented until proven guilty" phenomenon applies
          to the other arts and sciences?

          > Getting people who are nervous to perform
          > facilitates the teaching aspect.
          True, and one of the best things about attempting a
          performance art in the SCA.

          > Plus we're all supposed to be friends, right? ;^P
          Can you critique your friends? Or strangers? I had to
          judge two performances on the subject of Lochac's
          becoming a kingdom last week. I remember scribbling
          "simple does not equal period" on the judging sheet
          for the one entrant, who did a multi-verse, eminently
          singable song with a refrain one could get the
          audience to join in on - and whose idea of
          documentation was a statement that rhymed verse was
          period. I also wrote, "Breathe, smile, you can do
          this" because the entrant buried her nose in her copy,
          didn't dare make eye contact and did this wincy little
          "I suck, I'm sorry you had to sit through that"
          curtsey when we applauded. I would've liked to have
          collared her for a pep talk afterward, but she
          vanished. Oh well....

          Jehanne

          =====
          "I do but sing because I must, And pipe but as the linnets sing."
          Alfred, Lord Tennyson, "In Memoriam."

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
          http://greetings.yahoo.com/
        • Sarah Michele Ford
          ... Hrm... that part I don t know about. Maybe it s more likely in bardic arts because they re so much more ... associated with the creator/performer. ... And
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 1, 2002
            On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, L Joseph wrote:

            >
            > --- Sarah Michele Ford <sarah@...> wrote:
            > > I'd say that it's not just a bardic thing - look at
            > > how people with
            > > various awards are encouraged to bring tokens to A&S
            > > competitions to give
            > > to entries that particularly impress them.
            > OK, that's true. I'm curious, however, as to whether
            > the "talented until proven guilty" phenomenon applies
            > to the other arts and sciences?

            Hrm... that part I don't know about. Maybe it's more likely in bardic
            arts because they're so much more ... associated with the
            creator/performer.

            > > Getting people who are nervous to perform
            > > facilitates the teaching aspect.
            > True, and one of the best things about attempting a
            > performance art in the SCA.

            And one of the only reasons I'm even considering it for next year. Well,
            that and Henry opening his big mouth about a 12-category challenge for
            NLXII.

            >
            > > Plus we're all supposed to be friends, right? ;^P
            > Can you critique your friends? Or strangers? I had to
            > judge two performances on the subject of Lochac's
            > becoming a kingdom last week. I remember scribbling
            > "simple does not equal period" on the judging sheet
            > for the one entrant, who did a multi-verse, eminently
            > singable song with a refrain one could get the
            > audience to join in on - and whose idea of
            > documentation was a statement that rhymed verse was
            > period. I also wrote, "Breathe, smile, you can do
            > this" because the entrant buried her nose in her copy,
            > didn't dare make eye contact and did this wincy little
            > "I suck, I'm sorry you had to sit through that"
            > curtsey when we applauded. I would've liked to have
            > collared her for a pep talk afterward, but she
            > vanished. Oh well....

            I think the "we're all friends" things works both ways - we maybe feel
            more welcome to critique because it's a (relatively) freindly environment,
            but we're also more likely to be supportive of even not-so-great
            performances because we can see ourselves perhaps someday being there or
            have already been there ourselves.

            And now I seem to be rambling. ;^)

            Alianor

            Sarah Michele Ford
            /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
            Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
            reality is but an exception.
            --Jean Baudrillard
            \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
          • L Joseph
            ... Don t know. It s pretty difficult to argue with the qualities of something as tangible as a scroll or blackworked coif. Performance is ephemeral, perhaps
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 1, 2002
              --- Sarah Michele Ford <sarah@...> wrote:
              > Hrm... that part I don't know about. Maybe it's
              > more likely in bardic arts because they're so much
              > more ... associated with the creator/performer.
              Don't know. It's pretty difficult to argue with the
              qualities of something as tangible as a scroll or
              blackworked coif. Performance is ephemeral, perhaps
              that's why people are giving me the benefit of the
              doubt. ;->

              > And one of the only reasons I'm even considering it
              > for next year.
              Really? What sort of performance are you interested in
              doing?

              > I think the "we're all friends" things works both
              > ways - we maybe feel
              > more welcome to critique because it's a (relatively)
              > freindly environment,
              > but we're also more likely to be supportive of even
              > not-so-great
              > performances because we can see ourselves perhaps
              > someday being there or
              > have already been there ourselves.
              Support yes, I'm not so certain about criticism - some
              people can accept it, learn from it and grow in their
              art. Some people just want you to praise them and will
              get offended if you critique their work. Gotta be
              careful with that.

              Jehanne

              =====
              "I do but sing because I must, And pipe but as the linnets sing."
              Alfred, Lord Tennyson, "In Memoriam."

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
              http://greetings.yahoo.com/
            • Sarah Michele Ford
              ... Playin my recorder. I need to scope some music (suggestions? ) and get to practicing, since I haven t with any regularity in years. LIke I
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 1, 2002
                On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, L Joseph wrote:

                > > And one of the only reasons I'm even considering it
                > > for next year.
                > Really? What sort of performance are you interested in
                > doing?

                Playin' my recorder. I need to scope some music (suggestions? <nudge
                nudge>) and get to practicing, since I haven't with any regularity in
                years. LIke I said, it's all Henry's fault.

                >
                > > I think the "we're all friends" things works both
                > > ways - we maybe feel
                > > more welcome to critique because it's a (relatively)
                > > freindly environment,
                > > but we're also more likely to be supportive of even
                > > not-so-great
                > > performances because we can see ourselves perhaps
                > > someday being there or
                > > have already been there ourselves.
                > Support yes, I'm not so certain about criticism - some
                > people can accept it, learn from it and grow in their
                > art. Some people just want you to praise them and will
                > get offended if you critique their work. Gotta be
                > careful with that.

                Heh, yeah. As opposed to me, who took my stuff to NL for the express
                purpose of being told what was wrong with it, 'cause I hadn't gotten much
                constructive criticism locally.

                Alianor

                Sarah Michele Ford
                /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
                Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
                reality is but an exception.
                --Jean Baudrillard
                \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
              • L Joseph
                ... Try http://www.courtlymusicunlimited.com/Music.html for sheet music specifically for recorder. I hear they ve got a decent selection. Jehanne ===== I do
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 1, 2002
                  --- Sarah Michele Ford <sarah@...> wrote:
                  > Playin' my recorder. I need to scope some music
                  > (suggestions? <nudge
                  > nudge>) and get to practicing, since I haven't with
                  > any regularity in
                  > years. LIke I said, it's all Henry's fault.
                  Try http://www.courtlymusicunlimited.com/Music.html
                  for sheet music specifically for recorder. I hear
                  they've got a decent selection.

                  Jehanne


                  =====
                  "I do but sing because I must, And pipe but as the linnets sing."
                  Alfred, Lord Tennyson, "In Memoriam."

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
                  http://greetings.yahoo.com/
                • Sarah Michele Ford
                  ... Looks quite promising, thanks for the tip! Not too expensive, either. Now if only I knew if I should be getting easy or medium or advanced music...
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 2, 2002
                    On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, L Joseph wrote:

                    > Try http://www.courtlymusicunlimited.com/Music.html
                    > for sheet music specifically for recorder. I hear
                    > they've got a decent selection.

                    Looks quite promising, thanks for the tip! Not too expensive,
                    either. Now if only I knew if I should be getting "easy" or "medium" or
                    "advanced" music... ;^)

                    Alianor

                    Sarah Michele Ford
                    /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
                    Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
                    reality is but an exception.
                    --Jean Baudrillard
                    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
                  • maud_de_clayton
                    ... that ... note ... How can one tell if a hurdy-gurdy is being played badly? It all sounds like somebody torturing a cat to me. 8-D Seriously though, IIRC,
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 8, 2002
                      --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "wodeford" <wodeford@y...> wrote:
                      > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "maud_de_clayton" <dtjacobson@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > > Dang! Sorry I missed it! I mentioned to a couple people I know
                      that
                      > > you play a hurdygurdy, and they were mightily impressed. ;-)
                      >
                      > Meant to respond to this earlier, and got sidetracked. How do they
                      > know that I'm any GOOD at playing a hurdy gurdy? For that matter,
                      > Maud, how do you know? You've never actually heard me produce a
                      note
                      > of music. ;-> I talk the talk, but do you really know if I walk the
                      > walk?
                      >
                      How can one tell if a hurdy-gurdy is being played badly? It all
                      sounds like somebody torturing a cat to me. 8-D

                      Seriously though, IIRC, somebody that can't play a hurdy-gurdy can't
                      get any notes out of it. Besides, you seem to be able to "talk the
                      talk" so well, you give the appearance of knowing something about
                      music. So I'll stick by my judgment. ;-)

                      Maud
                    • wodeford
                      ... Or a choir of drunken bees.... ;- ... There have been times when those bees just don t want to cooperate! I spend as much time tinkering with that box as
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 8, 2002
                        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "maud_de_clayton" <dtjacobson@y...> wrote:

                        > How can one tell if a hurdy-gurdy is being played badly? It all
                        > sounds like somebody torturing a cat to me. 8-D
                        Or a choir of drunken bees.... ;->

                        > Seriously though, IIRC, somebody that can't play a hurdy-gurdy
                        > can't get any notes out of it.
                        There have been times when those bees just don't want to cooperate! I
                        spend as much time tinkering with that box as playing it - though
                        switching from powdered to solid rosin has helped, as has the
                        relatively low (as opposed to the "swamps of Jersey") humidity. [Sir
                        Gaston and I have been chatting via e-mail as he's trying to build
                        one and we've gone off in all sorts of fascinating tangents, pun
                        intended, as we try to figure out just how musical instruments work.]

                        > Besides, you seem to be able to "talk the talk" so well, you give
                        > the appearance of knowing something about music. So I'll stick by
                        > my judgment. ;-)
                        Well, I've been trying to do my homework. I'm about a third of the
                        way through the "Antiquity and the Middle Ages" volume in the Music
                        and Society Series. Music theory has not been my strong suit, so this
                        sort of thing really IS homework.

                        Sounds like London was wonderful. For good or ill, I was there three
                        times - all before I'd ever discovered the SCA. When I think of the
                        damage I could've done at the British Library alone....

                        Welcome back,
                        Jehanne
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