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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Medieval Tailoring book?

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  • Marianne Perdomo Machin
    Anneke, many thanks for posting these!! I made a skirt from a Spanish example ca. 1500 that had these flounces. I m quite happy to learn that I can extend it
    Message 1 of 112 , Mar 1, 2002
      Anneke, many thanks for posting these!! I made a skirt from a Spanish example
      ca. 1500 that had these flounces. I'm quite happy to learn that I can "extend
      it back" a few decades. Maybe I do need the book after all.
      FWIW, in the Spanish cases I have seen the flounces may even be purely
      decorative. The one I copied, for example, has several small flounces, all
      above the knee. Another skirt used bigger flounces, lower down the skirt.
      These can be seen in the Hispanic Costume book.

      Happy weekend!

      Marianne

      > these "ruffles" _are_ period for 15th c flemish/french/burgundian
      > lower class/working women kirtles. And that's what the kirtle pattern
      > in question is for. I wouldn't call them ruffles, though. It's more
      > like a slightly gathered/pleated strip of fabric sewn to the hem to
      > extend the kirtle.
      >
      > The example Kass spoke of might be a fur lining that has been turned
      > up. Here's a picture of it:
      > http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th/weyden1.jpg
      > and the piecing in the skirt:
      > http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th/weyden2.jpg
      >
      > These are other examples of this fur thing:
      > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/g/goes/calvary/calvar21.jpg
      > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/m/master/flemalle/2/marriage.jpg
      > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/b/bouts/dirk_e/altar/passion2.jpg
      >
      > Example of this extending the skirt with another color fabric:
      > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/m/master/life/birth_m1.jpg
      >
      > Some examples of extending the skirt with same color fabric I put
      > into Files because at quick search I couldn't find where I got them.
      > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/m/memling/3mature2/25nobath.jpg
      >
      > On another note here's an example of shortening the skirt:
      > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/zgothic/miniatur/1402-450/00n_1400.jpg
      > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/m/memling/3mature1/17noadv1.jpg
      >
      > My working theory about these ruffles/flounces/things is that maybe
      > a) The hem got so damaged as to be beyond repare but the kirtle was
      > still wearable. So the damaged part was cut off and a new strip
      > attached.
      > b) The kirtle was a hand-me-down and too short for the wearer or too
      > long and needed adjustment.
      >
      > The book _is_ a good one! Certainly better than Knowne World
      > Handbook. It is not a MOL book, true, but it's much better than the
      > majority of costume books out there.
      >
      > The only question I had about the flat fronted kirtle has been
      > answered. The three panel front was inspired by the Fouquet Madonna
      > (Agnes Sorel) gown. I still wouldn't make a sleevless kirtle from
      > this pattern, though...
      >
      > I'm sorry, this is my opinion, YMMW.
      >
      > Anneke van deme Boerne
      > Reval
    • unclrashid
      ... of ... angle. ... that ... how ... a ... Ok, I ll add my 2 cents, also. I don t really want to argue about whether or not this is a flounce, because we
      Message 112 of 112 , Mar 6, 2002
        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "xina007eu" <Christina_Lemke@h...> wrote:

        >
        > none of these look like a proper flounce to me. Look how the folds
        of
        > the skirt continue straight into the "flounce" part. Also look how
        > the "flounce" or band doesn't stand away from the skirt at an
        angle.
        > It looks like this:
        >
        > | | skirt
        > | |
        > | |
        > | |
        > | |
        > ----------------------
        > | | "flounce" or band
        > ----------------------
        >
        >
        > I'd expect a silhouette like
        > | | skirt
        > | |
        > | |
        > | |
        > | |
        > ----------------------
        > / \
        > / \ flounce
        > --------------------------
        >
        > I don't see how one can achieve the first silhouette with a flounce
        > that is 1.4 or 1.5 times the circumference of the hem, assuming
        that
        > the flounce is of the same or a similar fabric as the skirt, and
        how
        > the folds of the skirt can continue straight into a flounce. Even
        > allowing for artistic license and non-naturalistic depiction, it is
        a
        > bit odd.
        >
        > Just my 2 cents ...
        >

        Ok, I'll add my 2 cents, also. I don't really want to argue about
        whether or not this is a flounce, because we may just be arguing
        semantics here. I do however believe that it is very defintitely a
        piece of fabric gathered or pleated onto the bottom of the kirtle.

        Also, I sew Victorian and Edwardian gowns for a local dance company
        so I know a lot about how gathered fabric hangs on a skirt. Just
        because the fabric is gathered does not automatically mean the
        flounce must flair out. That is dependent on many factors, including
        the ratio of the gathering, the weight, the drape, and the stiffness
        of the fabric. While any flounce will flair when you walk or spin,
        wool gathered at a ratio of 1.5 usually is too heavy to flair out
        like your second drawing without a lot of support underneath. If all
        gathered fabric automatically flaired out just because it was
        gathered, Edwardian dressmakers would not have need to use all the
        types of petticoats they invented with ruffles and flounces of
        horsehair and organdy and crinoline to support the flounced skirts

        My guess would be that this was a way of repairing an old, muddy,
        worn-out hem. You may notice in the pictures that they frequently
        pull up the outer skirt when tramping about outside. I beleive they
        wore the "best" kirtle on the outside and the underlayer may have
        been an older kirtle in poor condition. I bet the hem got really
        worn out and soiled. They might cut off the bottom few inches to
        reomove the soiled fabric and then need to add more fabric on to
        lengthen it. I know that when you sew a straight piece of fabric
        onto the bottom of a flared skirt, it destroys the original line of
        the skirt, and may even not be wide enough to walk in. Slightly
        gathering the added strip of fabric would solve this problem.

        I thought at one time that these slight gathers were the result of
        the dress being hemmed inside out, with a fairly deep hem, but
        the "flounces" in these new pictures posted are definitely too deep
        to be just the hem.

        Rashid
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