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Re: embroidery discovery

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  • ladymorwenna
    ... Now I m really frustrated that I spent all my time on the Oxburgh Hangings when I was at the V&A. I saw the Real Thing, but I have no notes or pictures.
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 31, 2002
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      > Hi everyone... you may remember a couple of weeks ago I posted about
      > my plans to use a detail from the Bostocke Sampler as a cushion...
      >
      > Well, as part of my planning I decided to get my hands on a copy of
      > King and Levey's *The Victoria and Albert Museum's Textile
      > Collection: Embroidery in Britain from 1200 to 1750* which has a
      > picture of the Real Thing (tm).

      Now I'm really frustrated that I spent all my time on the Oxburgh
      Hangings when I was at the V&A. I saw the Real Thing, but I have no
      notes or pictures.

      > Upon examination of the section I'm planning to do, I made a
      > discovery: there apparently used to be another bird in that tree!!!
      > Was the bird removed on purpose? Were those stitches simply lost?
      > I don't know; the latter seems a tad unlikely given the generally
      > good condition of the rest of the piece.

      I will check my books when I get home and see if there is any
      commentary on this missing bits. Guesses of the top of my head are
      either the missing bird was dyed with a color that made it rot, or the
      final result was not what was expected and it was ripped out (I saw
      this on a band sampler once).

      > I've uploaded a scan of the whole thing, the detail portion, and
      > Carol Hanson's (of dragonbear.com) chart of it. The missing bird
      > doesn't appear in her chart, but I think I may give myself severe
      > eyestrain and try to add it. (Severe eyestrain 'cause this will
      > require squinting really hard at the small picture to count holes
      > and translate those holes into where the heck the stitches were.)

      Check with the V&A's picture library. I'm positive that they've got
      the sampler in their files, and they might even have details
      photographed. It might reduce they eyestrain. I bought a color photo
      of one of the Oxburgh panels and I can see the individual stitches
      well enough to chart.

      > Alianor

      Morwenna
    • Sarah Michele Ford
      ... No, to the left of the elephant (which has also disappeared). Basically in the same place as the squirrel, only on the right side of the tree. I realize I
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 31, 2002
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        On Thu, 31 Jan 2002, Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil wrote:

        > So the bird of which you speak is currently located amongst the grass and
        > flowers, under the elephant, correct? As if it (the bird) were sitting on
        > the ground? And you think this bird should be in the tree with the
        > squirrel and pelican? I'm just trying to make it straight in my mind what
        > you're bringing across.

        No, to the left of the elephant (which has also disappeared). Basically
        in the same place as the squirrel, only on the right side of the tree.

        I realize I wasn't totally clear... and I've since discovered that the
        disappeared-bits dont' show up real well on all computers & with all
        browsers.

        Alianor

        Sarah Michele Ford
        /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
        Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
        reality is but an exception.
        --Jean Baudrillard
        \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
      • Sarah Michele Ford
        ... Ah, well... Last time I was at the V&A I didn t even realize all the treasures it holds... and now I don t know WHEN I ll be back in London with that
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 31, 2002
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          On Thu, 31 Jan 2002, ladymorwenna wrote:

          > > Hi everyone... you may remember a couple of weeks ago I posted about
          > > my plans to use a detail from the Bostocke Sampler as a cushion...
          > >
          > > Well, as part of my planning I decided to get my hands on a copy of
          > > King and Levey's *The Victoria and Albert Museum's Textile
          > > Collection: Embroidery in Britain from 1200 to 1750* which has a
          > > picture of the Real Thing (tm).
          >
          > Now I'm really frustrated that I spent all my time on the Oxburgh
          > Hangings when I was at the V&A. I saw the Real Thing, but I have no
          > notes or pictures.

          Ah, well... Last time I was at the V&A I didn't even realize all the
          treasures it holds... and now I don't know WHEN I'll be back in London
          with that much time on my hands again. WAH!

          >
          > > Upon examination of the section I'm planning to do, I made a
          > > discovery: there apparently used to be another bird in that tree!!!
          > > Was the bird removed on purpose? Were those stitches simply lost?
          > > I don't know; the latter seems a tad unlikely given the generally
          > > good condition of the rest of the piece.
          >
          > I will check my books when I get home and see if there is any
          > commentary on this missing bits. Guesses of the top of my head are
          > either the missing bird was dyed with a color that made it rot, or the
          > final result was not what was expected and it was ripped out (I saw
          > this on a band sampler once).

          Those were my guesses as well. But it's just so fascinating!

          >
          > > I've uploaded a scan of the whole thing, the detail portion, and
          > > Carol Hanson's (of dragonbear.com) chart of it. The missing bird
          > > doesn't appear in her chart, but I think I may give myself severe
          > > eyestrain and try to add it. (Severe eyestrain 'cause this will
          > > require squinting really hard at the small picture to count holes
          > > and translate those holes into where the heck the stitches were.)
          >
          > Check with the V&A's picture library. I'm positive that they've got
          > the sampler in their files, and they might even have details
          > photographed. It might reduce they eyestrain. I bought a color photo
          > of one of the Oxburgh panels and I can see the individual stitches
          > well enough to chart.

          I will. The scan actually shows up pretty well on my monitor, so it won't
          be too difficult to copy the stitches over to the chart I already have
          printed.

          Thanks for the help!

          Alianor

          Sarah Michele Ford
          /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
          Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
          reality is but an exception.
          --Jean Baudrillard
          \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
        • xina007eu
          The thread may simply have disintegrated. This happens with most blackwork because the dyes used for the black silk threads eat up the silk fibres so that all
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 31, 2002
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            The thread may simply have disintegrated. This happens with most
            blackwork because the dyes used for the black silk threads eat up the
            silk fibres so that all old blackwork (and probably other embroidery
            as well) is doomed - it self-destructs.
            Best regards,

            Christina

            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Sarah Michele Ford <sarah@s...> wrote:
            > Hi everyone... you may remember a couple of weeks ago I posted
            about my
            > plans to use a detail from the Bostocke Sampler as a cushion...
            >
            > Well, as part of my planning I decided to get my hands on a copy of
            King
            > and Levey's *The Victoria and Albert Museum's Textile
            > Collection: Embroidery in Britain from 1200 to 1750* which has a
            picture
            > of the Real Thing (tm).
            >
            > Upon examination of the section I'm planning to do, I made a
            > discovery: there apparently used to be another bird in that
            tree!!! Was
            > the bird removed on purpose? Were those stitches simply lost? I
            don't
            > know; the latter seems a tad unlikely given the generally good
            condition
            > of the rest of the piece.
            >
            > I've uploaded a scan of the whole thing, the detail portion, and
            Carol
            > Hanson's (of dragonbear.com) chart of it. The missing bird doesn't
            appear
            > in her chart, but I think I may give myself severe eyestrain and
            try to
            > add it. (Severe eyestrain 'cause this will require squinting
            really hard
            > at the small picture to count holes and translate those holes into
            where
            > the heck the stitches were.)
            >
            > I wonder if the bird really was supposed to be a part of the tree
            with the
            > pelican and the squirrel in it because 1) there's the relative-size
            issue.
            > The bird is the same size as the pelican, and some bigger than the
            > squirrel. My first inclination was to say "oh, it's a raven" but
            now I'm
            > not so sure. And 2) Right next to, and touching, the removed bird
            is what
            > appears to be an elephant, which is also missing. Clearly, the
            elephant
            > does not belong in the tree.
            >
            > The relevant files are:
            >
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/files/Alianor/pelitree.jpg
            > (the detail of the sampler)
            >
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/files/Alianor/bostocke.jpg
            > (most of the whole sampler - the pages of the book are a tad bigger
            than
            > the bed on the departmental scanner...)
            >
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/files/Alianor/Pelitree.gif
            > (Carol's chart of the relevant detail)
            >
            > Done rambling at you. Don't hurt your eyes too much squinting at
            the
            > images - it really does show up much better in real life.
            >
            > Alianor
            >
            > PS - Gaius, if you really want to freak Rusty's s**t out, tell him
            that
            > the Dark Melm of Sith and Jedi Melm say hi. Trust me, he'll know
            what you
            > mean.
            >
            > Sarah Michele Ford
            > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
            > Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
            > reality is but an exception.
            > --Jean Baudrillard
            > \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
          • Jeff Gedney
            I have taken the liberty of digitally enhancing the tree section of the Bostocke sampler, to show the needle holes more clearly, and added an outline of the
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 1, 2002
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              I have taken the liberty of digitally enhancing the tree section of the
              Bostocke sampler, to show the needle holes more clearly, and added an
              outline of the bird area in question.
              I note that one leg of the elephant reamins, so I think that the theory that
              the image just rotted off is quite likely.
              In the files section ... Alianor's stuff.

              I hope you don't mind Alianor, but I thought these pictures should be kept
              together...

              Elias Gedney

              ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
              Studium doscendi volutate quae cogi non potest constat.
              ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Sarah Michele Ford [mailto:sarah@...]
              > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:19 PM
              > To: authentic_sca@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [Authentic_SCA] embroidery discovery
              >
              >
              > Hi everyone... you may remember a couple of weeks ago I posted about my
              > plans to use a detail from the Bostocke Sampler as a cushion...
              >
              > Well, as part of my planning I decided to get my hands on a copy of King
              > and Levey's *The Victoria and Albert Museum's Textile
              > Collection: Embroidery in Britain from 1200 to 1750* which has a picture
              > of the Real Thing (tm).
              >
              > Upon examination of the section I'm planning to do, I made a
              > discovery: there apparently used to be another bird in that tree!!! Was
              > the bird removed on purpose? Were those stitches simply lost? I don't
              > know; the latter seems a tad unlikely given the generally good condition
              > of the rest of the piece.
              >
              > I've uploaded a scan of the whole thing, the detail portion, and Carol
              > Hanson's (of dragonbear.com) chart of it. The missing bird
              > doesn't appear
              > in her chart, but I think I may give myself severe eyestrain and try to
              > add it. (Severe eyestrain 'cause this will require squinting really hard
              > at the small picture to count holes and translate those holes into where
              > the heck the stitches were.)
              >
              > I wonder if the bird really was supposed to be a part of the
              > tree with the
              > pelican and the squirrel in it because 1) there's the
              > relative-size issue.
              > The bird is the same size as the pelican, and some bigger than the
              > squirrel. My first inclination was to say "oh, it's a raven" but now I'm
              > not so sure. And 2) Right next to, and touching, the removed
              > bird is what
              > appears to be an elephant, which is also missing. Clearly, the elephant
              > does not belong in the tree.
              >
              > The relevant files are:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/files/Alianor/pelitree.jpg
              > (the detail of the sampler)
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/files/Alianor/bostocke.jpg
              > (most of the whole sampler - the pages of the book are a tad bigger than
              > the bed on the departmental scanner...)
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/files/Alianor/Pelitree.gif
              > (Carol's chart of the relevant detail)
              >
              > Done rambling at you. Don't hurt your eyes too much squinting at the
              > images - it really does show up much better in real life.
              >
              > Alianor
              >
              > PS - Gaius, if you really want to freak Rusty's s**t out, tell him that
              > the Dark Melm of Sith and Jedi Melm say hi. Trust me, he'll
              > know what you
              > mean.
              >
              > Sarah Michele Ford
              > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
              > Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
              > reality is but an exception.
              > --Jean Baudrillard
              > \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
              >
              >
              >
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              >
              >
              >
            • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
              ... Very cool and thank you Elias, I can now see what it is that she is speaking of. I hope you do put in the other bird, Alianor! It would be wonderful!
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 1, 2002
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                At 09:25 AM 2/1/2002 -0500, you wrote:
                >I have taken the liberty of digitally enhancing the tree section of the
                >Bostocke sampler, to show the needle holes more clearly, and added an
                >outline of the bird area in question.
                >I note that one leg of the elephant reamins, so I think that the theory that
                >the image just rotted off is quite likely.
                >In the files section ... Alianor's stuff.

                Very cool and thank you Elias, I can now see what it is that she is
                speaking of.

                I hope you do put in the other bird, Alianor! It would be wonderful!

                Smiles,
                Despina
              • Sarah Michele Ford
                ... Of course I don t mind! Thank you! It wasn t until I wanted to show my discovery to Matatias last night that I found that it wasn t too clear in some
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 1, 2002
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                  On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Jeff Gedney wrote:

                  > I have taken the liberty of digitally enhancing the tree section of the
                  > Bostocke sampler, to show the needle holes more clearly, and added an
                  > outline of the bird area in question.
                  > I note that one leg of the elephant reamins, so I think that the theory that
                  > the image just rotted off is quite likely.
                  > In the files section ... Alianor's stuff.
                  >
                  > I hope you don't mind Alianor, but I thought these pictures should be kept
                  > together...

                  Of course I don't mind! Thank you! It wasn't until I wanted to show my
                  discovery to Matatias last night that I found that it wasn't too clear in
                  some instances (I'd already looked at it with both a "real" monitor and my
                  laptop...)

                  Alianor

                  Sarah Michele Ford
                  /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
                  Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
                  reality is but an exception.
                  --Jean Baudrillard
                  \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
                • Sarah Michele Ford
                  ... I intend to, and here s why. When I eventually get around to making and registering arms, they re going to have ravens on them (for Ravenglass) - probably
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 1, 2002
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                    On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil wrote:

                    > I hope you do put in the other bird, Alianor! It would be wonderful!

                    I intend to, and here's why. When I eventually get around to making and
                    registering arms, they're going to have ravens on them (for Ravenglass) -
                    probably 3. If I make the bird black/dark grey like the squirrel,
                    voila! A raven, and a personal mark on something that's going to be a
                    gift for a friend.

                    Yay!

                    Alianor

                    Sarah Michele Ford
                    /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
                    Illusion is the general rule of the universe;
                    reality is but an exception.
                    --Jean Baudrillard
                    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
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