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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: pro fox hunting sites

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  • Zohra Rawling
    --On Wednesday, January 2, 2002 12:51 AM +0000 gwernin ... That would simply be because I posted it to the wrong list and didn t even realize
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 1 8:18 PM
      --On Wednesday, January 2, 2002 12:51 AM +0000 gwernin <Gwernin@...>
      wrote:

      > I would submit that this thread is mundanely political and seriously
      > off topic for this list.
      >
      > Guernen Cimarguid


      That would simply be because I posted it to the wrong list and didn't even
      realize it, until you pointed it out.

      How extremely bizarre, I have never done that before.



      Although, I wonder how off topic it truly is.

      I think I will go research fox hunting in medieval times now.


      Ysabella
    • skyecatuk
      ... didn t even ... Sure, do. But please let s not get into the political discussion. There s a lot more to these groups than meets the eye... Lisa
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 4 4:44 AM
        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Zohra Rawling <zisaac@f...> wrote:

        > That would simply be because I posted it to the wrong list and
        didn't even
        > realize it, until you pointed it out.
        >
        > How extremely bizarre, I have never done that before.

        > Although, I wonder how off topic it truly is.
        >
        > I think I will go research fox hunting in medieval times now.

        Sure, do.

        But please let's not get into the political discussion. There's a lot
        more to these groups than meets the eye...

        Lisa
      • gwernin
        Fox hunting is mentioned in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (14th century) along with boar hunting and deer hunting. Guernen
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 4 6:59 AM
          Fox hunting is mentioned in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (14th
          century) along with boar hunting and deer hunting.

          Guernen
        • Steven Proctor
          Hmmm. I don t recall anything about fox hunting in Hawk and Hound, but that may just be a faulty memory. In Gaston Pheobus Livre de la Chasse (one of the
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 4 7:50 AM
            Hmmm. I don't recall anything about fox hunting in Hawk and Hound, but
            that may just be a faulty memory. In Gaston Pheobus' Livre de la Chasse
            (one of the seminal books on hunting in the middle ages) there is
            documentary evidence for fox hunting, pretty much as we think of it
            today (mounted hunters, pack of dogs, etc...), though it was probably
            more of a pest extermination sort of thing than a sport for it's own
            end. This would be at least as early as the 1390's. as the Pheobus died
            in 1391.

            The illumination can be found at
            http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i5_0058.jpg

            Pheobus himself has little good to say about them, in his commentary...

            "It is seldom that is it willing to leave its place and take to the
            countryside, as it trusts neither its speed or its defense, it being too
            weak, and if it does go forth it will always go under cover, even if it
            is only a single bramble, so long as it is covered. But when it sees
            that it will not be able to last , it goes to ground, and his its pits,
            which are its fortresses, and which it knows well. The Fox does not
            complain when it is killed, but will always defend itself to the best of
            its ability. It lives off vermin and carrion and refuse, but its best
            food, that which it prefers, are gelines (quail? I think it's quail...)
            and capons, ducks and geese, small wild birds, when it finds them,
            butterflies, crickets, milk, cheese and butter. It causes great damage
            to wild hares and wild rabbits, which they readily take and eat by their
            great subtlety and mischievousness, and not by speed. There are some
            that drive out like wolves, and some that go only to the villages for
            their prey. They are so malicious and subtle that neither men nor dogs
            can counteract or thwart their tricks. They remain usually in their
            forts, hedges, bushes or pits, close to the cities or villages, always
            making badly with hens and other things."

            Good luck, if you're looking for a copy of Hawk and Hound, by the way.
            It took Moruadh and I two years of concentrated searching to find one
            for her... :-)

            Ta

            Morgan



            Zohra Rawling wrote:

            > I entirely agree with you Lisa.
            > I have no desire for a political discussion (mainly because I am so
            > set in
            > my ways I cannot be budged LOL!)
            >
            > but on to something more on topic!
            >
            > I asked around and this is what I learned so far.
            >
            > It is only the beginning and I can't wait to get the book and look
            > through
            > the bibliography!
            >
            >
            > a quote from another list:
            >
            >
            > " I'm not certain that, in the Middle Ages (ca. 500 to 1400), there
            > were
            > organized foxhunts in the same sense that we think of them. The
            > earliest
            > reference that I'm able to find to an organized sport is 1740 and I
            > haven't
            > had any luck farther back. There is research on the hunting of foxes
            > during that period, but in terms of organized group hunts, the quarry
            > was
            > more likely to be stag, deer, and boar. From the time of William I,
            > royal
            > hunting preserves (e.g., The New Forest, where you can still have a
            > wonderful canter through relatively wild terrain) designated and that
            > was
            > where royal hunts, and only royal hunts, took place. Penalties for
            > illegally hunting in a royal preserve could be as drastic as death.
            >
            > One book that I can suggest that you might want to have a look at is
            > 'The
            > Hound and the Hawk: The Art of Medieval Hunting' by John Cummins.
            >
            > I would love to hear any other research or opinions about organized
            > foxhunting in medieval England. "
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > So the No talking about MODERN feelings of fox hunting (because I will
            > just
            > ignore it)...are there any comments?
            >
            >
            > Ysabella du Draguignan

            --
            "I could tell you stories about this road we shall be traveling," the
            old man told his young companions as he leaned on his staff and stroked
            his silver beard, "of how it was built by Dwarves of the Barad-dur in
            the days of Thranduil the Great, numberless years before the Elves of
            the Ered Luin left their silver woods in Lindon, sailed their ships over
            the Western Sea, and passed from the knowledge of men, but what would
            you learn from these tales, except that I squandered my college years
            reading far too much Tolkien instead of meeting girls."
          • skyecatuk
            ... will just ... My right elbow suggests the dates about right. I guess I m thinking that because the hunting jackets etc. look very 18th century inspired
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 4 7:57 AM
              --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Zohra Rawling <zisaac@f...> wrote:
              > So the No talking about MODERN feelings of fox hunting (because I
              will just
              > ignore it)...are there any comments?

              My right elbow suggests the dates about right. I guess I'm thinking
              that because the hunting jackets etc. look very 18th century inspired
              even now. One was in the window of my local second hand shop a few
              weeks back, and confirmed that for me, from my memories of the local
              hunt.

              Now, I was at the St. Fagan's Museum of Welsh Life in Cardiff at
              Christmas. They have a load of old Welsh buildings, and one of them's
              a cockpit. That's quite old, I think.

              http://www.nmgw.ac.uk/mwl/index.en.shtml

              Nuts, it doesn't say. I think it was either 1600 or 1700, so still
              before the time period.

              Lisa
            • Steven Proctor
              ... N sweat, glad to be of help. ... Hmmm. *I* would, and I m sure Moruadh would as well, though it kind of depends on how interested in hunt history you are.
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 4 8:52 AM
                Zohra Rawling wrote:

                > --On Friday, January 4, 2002 10:50 AM -0500 Steven Proctor
                > <sproctor@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Hmmm. I don't recall anything about fox hunting in Hawk and Hound,
                > but
                > > that may just be a faulty memory. In Gaston Pheobus' Livre de la
                > Chasse
                > > (one of the seminal books on hunting in the middle ages) there is
                > > documentary evidence for fox hunting, pretty much as we think of it
                > > today (mounted hunters, pack of dogs, etc...), though it was
                > probably
                > > more of a pest extermination sort of thing than a sport for it's own
                >
                > > end. This would be at least as early as the 1390's. as the Pheobus
                > died
                > > in 1391.
                >
                > Thank you so much!
                > This helps a great deal!

                N'sweat, glad to be of help.

                > Since you finally found a copy of "Hawk and Hound", do you feel it is
                > worth
                > the search?

                Hmmm. *I* would, and I'm sure Moruadh would as well, though it kind of
                depends on how interested in hunt history you are. It's well researched
                and well written, and contains a lot of good info (including, but not
                limited to, the different types of dogs for hunting, and their
                appropriate uses, and the appropriate horn calls to use during the
                hunt...) and I found it pretty fascinating. I'd recommend it to anyone
                looking for a book on hunting in period.

                > > The illumination can be found at
                > > http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i5_0058.jpg
                >
                > That is wonderful.

                Isn't it though? The Livre de la Chasse is one of my favorite medieval
                manuscripts, though it's not one I get to use all that much in my
                illumination work. There's just not all that many 'huntsmen' type
                personae out there...

                > I love the size of the fox myself ^_^

                Heh. You should see some of the rabbits... :-)

                > I think I am going to paint this for the tent.

                Sounds cool. Have fun!

                > Again thank you so much Morgan this has been extremely helpful!
                > Do you mind if I sent it to another list?

                By all means, please do, if you think it's of interest there. I'm glad
                you found it helpful. :-)

                Ta

                Morgan



                --
                "I could tell you stories about this road we shall be traveling," the
                old man told his young companions as he leaned on his staff and stroked
                his silver beard, "of how it was built by Dwarves of the Barad-dur in
                the days of Thranduil the Great, numberless years before the Elves of
                the Ered Luin left their silver woods in Lindon, sailed their ships over
                the Western Sea, and passed from the knowledge of men, but what would
                you learn from these tales, except that I squandered my college years
                reading far too much Tolkien instead of meeting girls."
              • Zohra Rawling
                --On Friday, January 4, 2002 12:44 PM +0000 skyecatuk ... I entirely agree with you Lisa. I have no desire for a political discussion
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 4 9:08 AM
                  --On Friday, January 4, 2002 12:44 PM +0000 skyecatuk <skyecat@...>
                  wrote:

                  > Sure, do.
                  >
                  > But please let's not get into the political discussion. There's a lot
                  > more to these groups than meets the eye...
                  >
                  > Lisa

                  I entirely agree with you Lisa.
                  I have no desire for a political discussion (mainly because I am so set in
                  my ways I cannot be budged LOL!)

                  but on to something more on topic!

                  I asked around and this is what I learned so far.

                  It is only the beginning and I can't wait to get the book and look through
                  the bibliography!


                  a quote from another list:


                  " I'm not certain that, in the Middle Ages (ca. 500 to 1400), there were
                  organized foxhunts in the same sense that we think of them. The earliest
                  reference that I'm able to find to an organized sport is 1740 and I
                  haven't
                  had any luck farther back. There is research on the hunting of foxes
                  during that period, but in terms of organized group hunts, the quarry was
                  more likely to be stag, deer, and boar. From the time of William I, royal
                  hunting preserves (e.g., The New Forest, where you can still have a
                  wonderful canter through relatively wild terrain) designated and that was
                  where royal hunts, and only royal hunts, took place. Penalties for
                  illegally hunting in a royal preserve could be as drastic as death.

                  One book that I can suggest that you might want to have a look at is 'The
                  Hound and the Hawk: The Art of Medieval Hunting' by John Cummins.

                  I would love to hear any other research or opinions about organized
                  foxhunting in medieval England. "




                  So the No talking about MODERN feelings of fox hunting (because I will just
                  ignore it)...are there any comments?


                  Ysabella du Draguignan
                • Zohra Rawling
                  ... Oh I think I would get it for the horn calls alone!!!! ... I can understand, my husband has that sort of persona though ^_^ so I suppose we are out there,
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 4 9:24 AM
                    >
                    > Hmmm. *I* would, and I'm sure Moruadh would as well, though it kind of
                    > depends on how interested in hunt history you are. It's well researched
                    > and well written, and contains a lot of good info (including, but not
                    > limited to, the different types of dogs for hunting, and their
                    > appropriate uses, and the appropriate horn calls to use during the
                    > hunt...) and I found it pretty fascinating. I'd recommend it to anyone
                    > looking for a book on hunting in period.




                    Oh I think I would get it for the horn calls alone!!!!

                    >
                    > Isn't it though? The Livre de la Chasse is one of my favorite medieval
                    > manuscripts, though it's not one I get to use all that much in my
                    > illumination work. There's just not all that many 'huntsmen' type
                    > personae out there...


                    I can understand, my husband has that sort of persona though ^_^

                    so I suppose we are out there, although a minority.

                    >
                    > > I love the size of the fox myself ^_^
                    >
                    > Heh. You should see some of the rabbits... :-)

                    LOL!

                    like that science fiction B movie?
                    Killer rabbits or something ha hah a


                    >
                    > By all means, please do, if you think it's of interest there. I'm glad
                    > you found it helpful. :-)
                    >


                    Great!

                    Thank you!

                    Ysabella
                  • k_a_kaiser
                    Good news - The Hound and the Hawk was reprinted last year. I had no problem getting it from Half.com, think you can also find it via amazon and/or
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 4 9:43 AM
                      Good news - "The Hound and the Hawk" was reprinted last year. I had
                      no problem getting it from Half.com, think you can also find it via
                      amazon and/or borders.com.

                      It's especially good if you're interested in the hunting practices in
                      Spain and France, the author is a language professor in Scotland and
                      had access to lots of period foreign language books.

                      -Ginevra


                      > > Hmmm. *I* would, and I'm sure Moruadh would as well, though it
                      kind of
                      > > depends on how interested in hunt history you are. It's well
                      researched
                      > > and well written, and contains a lot of good info (including, but
                      not
                      > > limited to, the different types of dogs for hunting, and their
                      > > appropriate uses, and the appropriate horn calls to use during the
                      > > hunt...) and I found it pretty fascinating. I'd recommend it to
                      anyone
                      > > looking for a book on hunting in period.
                    • skyecatuk
                      ... them s ... Brilliant for the interesting buildings. Not that much that s SCA period (some is). Didn t visit the galleries, not enough time, so I can t say
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 4 9:53 AM
                        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Zohra Rawling <zisaac@f...> wrote:
                        > > Now, I was at the St. Fagan's Museum of Welsh Life in Cardiff at
                        > > Christmas. They have a load of old Welsh buildings, and one of
                        them's
                        > > a cockpit. That's quite old, I think.
                        > >
                        > > http://www.nmgw.ac.uk/mwl/index.en.shtml
                        > >
                        >
                        > You visited this?!?
                        >
                        > Oh it looks amazing, on a side note what was it like?

                        Brilliant for the interesting buildings. Not that much that's SCA
                        period (some is). Didn't visit the galleries, not enough time, so I
                        can't say what they're like.

                        Very good if you're interested in this area. And it's Free!

                        They have a nice guide book which I'm betting could be posted out if
                        you asked them very nicely (and didn't try phoning at a weekend)

                        Lisa
                      • Zohra Rawling
                        ... oh fabulous!!!! Thank you! I will have to get that sometime soon. I really am extremely interested in the hunt calls and whether any are similar to call
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 4 9:56 AM
                          On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, k_a_kaiser wrote:

                          > Good news - "The Hound and the Hawk" was reprinted last year. I had
                          > no problem getting it from Half.com, think you can also find it via
                          > amazon and/or borders.com.



                          oh fabulous!!!!

                          Thank you!

                          I will have to get that sometime soon.
                          I really am extremely interested in the hunt calls and whether any are
                          similar to "call to post" in horse racing.


                          >
                          > It's especially good if you're interested in the hunting practices in
                          > Spain and France, the author is a language professor in Scotland and
                          > had access to lots of period foreign language books.


                          I am definitely interested in France since that is my persona's
                          nationality.



                          Ysabella
                        • Zohra Rawling
                          ... That is really good to know. It really looks like something I would like to visit sometime ... cool! Thank you for the information. Ysabella
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 4 10:00 AM
                            >
                            > Brilliant for the interesting buildings. Not that much that's SCA
                            > period (some is). Didn't visit the galleries, not enough time, so I
                            > can't say what they're like.


                            That is really good to know.

                            It really looks like something I would like to visit sometime


                            >
                            > Very good if you're interested in this area. And it's Free!

                            cool!


                            Thank you for the information.


                            Ysabella
                          • gwernin
                            ... mmm ... I think you re mixing them up with someone else. They re not free (unless possibly to students?) but they are good value. Some of the exhibits are
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 4 10:15 AM
                              > Very good if you're interested in this area. And it's Free!
                              > Lisa

                              mmm ... I think you're mixing them up with someone else. They're not
                              free (unless possibly to students?) but they are good value. Some of
                              the exhibits are fascinating ... mostly post-period but a lot of
                              agricultural stuff doesn't seem to have changed much.

                              And easily combined with a visit to the National Museum of Wales in
                              Cardiff city center, which has some neat bronze age/iron age/Roman
                              stuff.

                              Guernen
                            • John Larsen
                              I don t know much about hunting, but a search path might be the French Horn. The French Horn (or Cor in French) was designed backwards to be able to play while
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jan 4 10:17 AM
                                I don't know much about hunting, but a search path might be the French Horn. The French Horn (or Cor in French) was designed backwards to be able to play while riding in conjunction with the hunt. Originally, it was only used in the orchestra when a piece wanted to "simulate" the hunt. I know of description of the horn going back to the early 17th century, so the development of the horn must pre-date that by some time. If the horn was standardized in development by this time, it follows that the hunt was also.
                                 
                                Additionally, Count Franz Anton von Sporck started the Order of St. Hubert in the mid 17th century. St. Hubert, as we all know, is the patron saint of Hunting. So the hunt was we developed enough by this time to form some kind of club.
                                 
                                Hope this is of assistance.

                                Watt of Folkstone
                                (John Larsen)
                                Shire of Cote du Ciel, Artemisia

                              • rowen_g
                                ... not ... I think St F s had some very late or just post-period textile bits in one of the indoor galleries. And a grand collection of triple-strung Welsh
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jan 4 10:29 AM
                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "gwernin" <Gwernin@a...> wrote:
                                  > > Very good if you're interested in this area. And it's Free!
                                  > > Lisa
                                  >
                                  > mmm ... I think you're mixing them up with someone else. They're
                                  not
                                  > free (unless possibly to students?) but they are good value. Some of
                                  > the exhibits are fascinating ... mostly post-period but a lot of
                                  > agricultural stuff doesn't seem to have changed much.
                                  >
                                  > And easily combined with a visit to the National Museum of Wales in
                                  > Cardiff city center, which has some neat bronze age/iron age/Roman
                                  > stuff.
                                  >
                                  > Guernen

                                  I think St F's had some very late or just post-period textile bits in
                                  one of the indoor galleries. And a grand collection of triple-strung
                                  Welsh harps (also post-SCA, but still wonderful.) Hmm... I seem to
                                  remember some late-period other musical instruments, but as it
                                  happened I was gawking at the harps and didn't pay close attention.

                                  Rowen
                                • Zohra Rawling
                                  ... Yes it was quite helpful! I find this all extremely interesting! The MET has a wonderful instrumental area, which also has a few hunting horns. one of
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jan 4 10:35 AM
                                    >
                                    > Hope this is of assistance.



                                    Yes it was quite helpful!

                                    I find this all extremely interesting!



                                    The MET has a wonderful instrumental area, which also has a few hunting
                                    horns. one of which is decorative only. (GORGEOUS btw)


                                    Ysabella
                                  • Zohra Rawling
                                    --On Friday, January 4, 2002 10:50 AM -0500 Steven Proctor ... Thank you so much! This helps a great deal! Since you finally found a copy of Hawk and Hound ,
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jan 4 10:59 AM
                                      --On Friday, January 4, 2002 10:50 AM -0500 Steven Proctor
                                      <sproctor@...> wrote:

                                      > Hmmm. I don't recall anything about fox hunting in Hawk and Hound, but
                                      > that may just be a faulty memory. In Gaston Pheobus' Livre de la Chasse
                                      > (one of the seminal books on hunting in the middle ages) there is
                                      > documentary evidence for fox hunting, pretty much as we think of it
                                      > today (mounted hunters, pack of dogs, etc...), though it was probably
                                      > more of a pest extermination sort of thing than a sport for it's own
                                      > end. This would be at least as early as the 1390's. as the Pheobus died
                                      > in 1391.

                                      Thank you so much!

                                      This helps a great deal!

                                      Since you finally found a copy of "Hawk and Hound", do you feel it is worth
                                      the search?



                                      >
                                      > The illumination can be found at
                                      > http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i5_0058.jpg


                                      That is wonderful.

                                      I love the size of the fox myself ^_^


                                      I think I am going to paint this for the tent.

                                      Again thank you so much Morgan this has been extremely helpful!

                                      Do you mind if I sent it to another list?


                                      Ysabella
                                    • Zohra Rawling
                                      --On Friday, January 4, 2002 3:57 PM +0000 skyecatuk wrote: re: jackets much of what is used in English riding hasn t changed since
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jan 4 11:08 AM
                                        --On Friday, January 4, 2002 3:57 PM +0000 skyecatuk <skyecat@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        re: jackets

                                        much of what is used in English riding hasn't changed since regency period.

                                        In fact I am purchasing a shade belly for competition ^_^

                                        required clothing are white riding breeches, blue or black jacket.
                                        Top hat riding helmet and tall boots.



                                        >
                                        > Now, I was at the St. Fagan's Museum of Welsh Life in Cardiff at
                                        > Christmas. They have a load of old Welsh buildings, and one of them's
                                        > a cockpit. That's quite old, I think.
                                        >
                                        > http://www.nmgw.ac.uk/mwl/index.en.shtml
                                        >

                                        You visited this?!?

                                        Oh it looks amazing, on a side note what was it like?



                                        > Nuts, it doesn't say. I think it was either 1600 or 1700, so still
                                        > before the time period.
                                        >


                                        Thanks!

                                        Ysabella
                                      • skyecatuk
                                        ... not ... Umm - went a couple of weeks ago. The main bit of the museum (the houses etc) was free. The guide book was £1.95. I don t think the galleries
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jan 8 4:27 AM
                                          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "gwernin" <Gwernin@a...> wrote:
                                          > > Very good if you're interested in this area. And it's Free!
                                          > > Lisa
                                          >
                                          > mmm ... I think you're mixing them up with someone else. They're
                                          not
                                          > free (unless possibly to students?) but they are good value.

                                          Umm - went a couple of weeks ago. The main bit of the museum (the
                                          houses etc) was free. The guide book was £1.95. I don't think the
                                          galleries charged, but since I didn't visit them, I could be wrong.

                                          Lisa
                                        • gwernin
                                          ... see my post yesterday. Last time I was there (summer 2000) there still was a charge. guernen
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jan 8 6:31 AM
                                            > Umm - went a couple of weeks ago. The main bit of the museum (the
                                            > houses etc) was free. The guide book was £1.95. I don't think the
                                            > galleries charged, but since I didn't visit them, I could be wrong.
                                            >
                                            > Lisa

                                            see my post yesterday. Last time I was there (summer 2000) there
                                            still was a charge.

                                            guernen
                                          • skyecatuk
                                            ... the ... wrong. ... Got it. don t mind me. Chronological post reader. Free museums are a Good Thing. I have to admit I was surprised that it was free.
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jan 8 6:47 AM
                                              --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "gwernin" <Gwernin@a...> wrote:
                                              > > Umm - went a couple of weeks ago. The main bit of the museum (the
                                              > > houses etc) was free. The guide book was £1.95. I don't think
                                              the
                                              > > galleries charged, but since I didn't visit them, I could be
                                              wrong.
                                              > >
                                              > > Lisa
                                              >
                                              > see my post yesterday. Last time I was there (summer 2000) there
                                              > still was a charge.
                                              >
                                              > guernen

                                              Got it. don't mind me. Chronological post reader.

                                              Free museums are a Good Thing. I have to admit I was surprised that
                                              it was free. Definitely a good deal!

                                              Lisa
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