Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: 12th night dress?

Expand Messages
  • Ciorstan
    ... Yes. As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight armscye that doesn t necessarily match up to the body of the garment even with a LOT of
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
      > And this brings up a question. I kind of understand how Cynthia did
      > hers. I also have the Period Patterns Houppe pattern (#26) and I can
      > use the body from view V, the sleeves from view IV, and the neckline
      > from view VI, just adding fabric for the train. I'm not sure what to
      > do. Anyone have any comments???

      Yes. As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight armscye
      that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment even with a
      LOT of easing, and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a native
      Caidiot, and most Period Patterns drive me deep into Native Dialect,
      Your Rad Dude-ette-ness, ohmigawd!). Don't use the sleeve pieces exactly
      as given, both PP and the Rocking Horse Farm houp patterns are off in
      cut in the sleeve cap area.

      Without a photo, it's hard to describe the proper cut for the sleeve
      (Baroness Cynthia's website is down right now and I don't recall if she
      gives a diagram). What you want is an offset seam to offset the drape
      over the arm. You want to shift around the pattern piece so that when
      you raise your arm the sleeve will 'break' over your wrist; the lowest
      part of the sleeve shouldn't lie on the seam. The way the RR and PP
      sleeve patterns are cut, the shortest portion of the sleeve is in the
      inside seam next to the waist. When you raise your arm out in front of
      you with this type of cut, the break is all wrong and what you get is a
      twisting sleeve around your lower arm, creating the sensation of binding
      and dragging, since the weight of the sleeve will actually twist
      dramatically around your arm away from your body. It is an uncomfortable
      sensation. I subscribe to Beau Brummel's theory of wearing clothing:
      make sure it fits perfectly, put them on and then _forget about them_.
      Clothes should not be annoying, even subtly annoying.

      There are two really good diagrams I can think of in books right off
      hand. Holkeboer is not one of them; the houpelande pattern given is
      almost identical to the flawed one in Hill & Bucknell's Patterns of
      Fashion, and is wrong. You want Carl Koehler's "History of Costume," (a
      five-buck Dover paperback!), specifically the sleeve diagram next to the
      "Woman of Siena," who is wearing exactly this type of sleeve (I'd cite
      the page, but my Blond Husband has done the book filing again, *sigh*)--
      or an even better diagram, page 95 of Jean Hunnisett's Period Costume
      for Stage & Screen, Medieval - 1500." A sleeve cut in this manner will
      not give one the effect of twisting the sleeve around the forearm at
      all.

      I hope the following explanation makes sense: you want to offset the cut
      of the sleeve cap in such a way so that the sleeve cap makes a
      laying-down S shape; the rest of the pattern below the sleeve cap
      remains the same. The seam then falls on the inside arm and the
      shortest part of the sleeve falls directly on the wrist at rest in front
      of the body. I used a standard oxford-type-shirt sleeve pattern, split,
      to form the top of my houp sleeves, since I decided the PP wasn't worth
      buying way back when I built a houp for my husband.

      Very bad ascii art, out of proportion:

      - -
      / * \ <--- the * is the center top of the sleeve when
      set-in.
      \ / \_
      \___/

      Hope this helps. When cut in this manner, the sleeve ends up looking
      exactly like all those totally kewl representations of great flowing
      sleeves in artwork and sculpture, an effect I think greatly to be
      desired.

      ciorstan
    • Zohra Rawling
      --On Saturday, December 1, 2001 3:42 AM -0500 Jeanne Harney ... then we will both have gold underdresses ^_^ *snicker* we ll be cute Ysabella
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
        --On Saturday, December 1, 2001 3:42 AM -0500 Jeanne Harney
        <jeanne@...> wrote:

        > I'm thinking about making a black velvet sideless to go over the same
        > underdress, but then again, I got this GORGEOUS gold fabric for the
        > underdress today, and may want to save it for evening too. I'm kind of
        > embarrassed...I killed polyesters for this fabric, which is something I
        > never do, but it was what I wanted.


        then we will both have gold underdresses

        ^_^

        *snicker*

        we'll be cute


        Ysabella
      • unclrashid@aol.com
        ... totally ... has ... it has ... off ... the ... For donut & coxcomb see Cynthias articles on Mens & Womens Stuffed roll hats: http://www.virtue.to/articles/
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Jeanne Harney" <jeanne@p...> wrote:
          > Rashid chimed in with:
          > >This sounds wonderful! But I hope you won't forget the hat! No
          > >houppelande like this would be complete without some type of
          totally
          > >outrageous hat! I recommend an extra big version of the "donut &
          > >coxcomb" hat.
          >
          > Well, I kind of have to...since I'm the only one in the Barony who
          has
          > worn any hat, and now I have to teach them about hats, and I know
          it has
          > to be BIG to balance out the BIG dress. I don't think I can pull
          off
          > the hat Mistress Cynthia wore...can you send me a pic or a URL for
          the
          > donut and coxcomb?

          For donut & coxcomb see Cynthias articles on Mens & Womens Stuffed
          roll hats:

          http://www.virtue.to/articles/

          Cynthia seperates the men's & women's, but if you look at a lot of
          pictures, you will find that the women also wore a lot of the same
          styles as the men. But there were some styles that were for women
          only, which the men never wore, so the way she has them seperated
          makes sense from that perspective.

          Rashid
        • unclrashid@aol.com
          ... armscye ... with a ... exactly ... in ... she ... All the stuff I snipped here was an excellent description of the Houppelende sleeve issue! I would like
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Ciorstan <ciorstan@m...> wrote:
            > Anyone have any comments???
            >
            > Yes. As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight
            armscye
            > that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment even
            with a
            > LOT of easing, and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a native
            > Caidiot, and most Period Patterns drive me deep into Native Dialect,
            > Your Rad Dude-ette-ness, ohmigawd!). Don't use the sleeve pieces
            exactly
            > as given, both PP and the Rocking Horse Farm houp patterns are off
            in
            > cut in the sleeve cap area.
            >
            > Without a photo, it's hard to describe the proper cut for the sleeve
            > (Baroness Cynthia's website is down right now and I don't recall if
            she
            > gives a diagram..........


            All the stuff I snipped here was an excellent description of the
            Houppelende sleeve issue!

            I would like to add my two cents worth also.... it is confusing
            enough that sometimes I just make a muslin mockup and cut it with
            about 12 inches extra length on the sleeve cap end to allow for
            adjustments. Then I pin fit the sleeve cap making sure the "bell"
            or "trumpet" portion of the sleeve is oriented correctly. (you have
            to sit down and use either a fork or pen to make sure the sleeve does
            not pull at some weird angle) This usually results in the sleeve cap
            being twisted about 30 degrees from where you would have expected
            it. This makes a pattern such that you have to cut you left and
            right sleeves with the pattern flipped over from one to the next.

            This technique works best with a rather full sleeve. It does not
            work quite so well with the type of sleeve that is very fitted on the
            upper arm and then flares out from the elbow.

            Rashid
          • Jeanne Harney
            ... From: ... But here s my question...the view of the sleeve I want to use is...open. The pattern calls it lined floor-length split tube
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <unclrashid@...>

              > All the stuff I snipped here was an excellent description of the
              > Houppelende sleeve issue!

              But here's my question...the view of the sleeve I want to use is...open.
              The pattern calls it "lined floor-length split tube sleeves, and wrist
              length undersleeves", and they mention that they "cheat" by putting in a
              fake undersleeve and a fake insert at the neck instead of making a
              proper underdress, which of course, I'm doing. So...would any of this
              be relevant?? I keep looking, and I've printed out Mistress Cynthia's
              entire Houppelande section, but she uses a completely different sleeve
              construction than I'm planning.

              > I would like to add my two cents worth also.... it is confusing
              > enough that sometimes I just make a muslin mockup and cut it with
              > about 12 inches extra length on the sleeve cap end to allow for
              > adjustments. Then I pin fit the sleeve cap making sure the "bell"
              > or "trumpet" portion of the sleeve is oriented correctly. (you have
              > to sit down and use either a fork or pen to make sure the sleeve does
              > not pull at some weird angle) This usually results in the sleeve cap
              > being twisted about 30 degrees from where you would have expected
              > it. This makes a pattern such that you have to cut you left and
              > right sleeves with the pattern flipped over from one to the next.

              Once again, the sleeves never touch my arm from maybe 1 or 2 inches over
              the actual shoulder...and the underdress is fine. I have 2 from the
              design I'm using.

              Also...I found Ron's fabric today. He's gonna be gorgeous. I'm making
              him a "pseudo-period", or maybe it's period, but I haven't done any
              research, though he's bought a coat/del/thingie like this before at
              Pennsic. Basically like an open calf-length del, without the flap that
              wraps over and hooks diagonally on the front (doesn't tie or close at
              all) in a black satin brocade with gold dragons on it, trimmed in gold
              satin at cuffs, collar, and down the front opening, with the same gold
              satin pants and a black satin knee-length tunic. He likes the look, and
              if I can get him into ANYTHING besides a small kilt, I feel
              fortunate!!!

              Jeanne
              who has enough trouble getting Ron to play, especially because if he
              can't wear the small kilt he wants to be a grubby peasant. This is the
              first time in 4 years he's agreed to ANYTHING resembling nice garb.
            • Ariane Helou
              ... Oooooh....that explains it!! When I was working on my big fancy dress last month, I used (among several other references) the Period Patterns Elizabethan.
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 3, 2001
                Ciorstan wrote:
                >As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight armscye
                >that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment even with a
                >LOT of easing,

                Oooooh....that explains it!! When I was working on my big fancy dress last
                month, I used (among several other references) the Period Patterns
                Elizabethan. I recycled a perfectly-fitting bodice from an old dress, but
                cut the sleeve pieces from the pattern; they were significantly smaller
                than the armscye, and though I got them sewn in nicely, when I tried them
                on I found that they were vastly too tight, and there were several
                directions in which I couldn't move my arms! :-( I'm glad to know it's the
                pattern's fault, not my own incompetence in sewing (well maybe a little of
                that too...) ;-)

                >and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a native
                >Caidiot,

                LOL!!! I've never heard that before :-) Though I usually reside in the
                West, my permanent home is in the Barony of the Angels - does that make me
                a Caidiot too? <g>

                Vittoria
                (back to studying, Despina, I promise! your pictures are very cool, by the way)
              • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                ... Glad you re studying. *wink* Thanks for the compliment. Smiles, Despina
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 3, 2001
                  At 09:53 AM 12/3/2001 -0800, you wrote:
                  >Vittoria
                  >(back to studying, Despina, I promise! your pictures are very cool, by
                  >the way)

                  Glad you're studying. *wink* Thanks for the compliment.

                  Smiles,
                  Despina
                • Guernen Cimarguid
                  don t know why, but I just keep reading the title on this thread as 12th (century) night-dress... maybe I m tired? ;-) Guernen
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 3, 2001
                    don't know why, but I just keep reading the title on this thread as
                    12th (century) night-dress...

                    maybe I'm tired? ;-)

                    Guernen
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.