Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: 12th night dress?
> And this brings up a question. I kind of understand how Cynthia didYes. As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight armscye
> hers. I also have the Period Patterns Houppe pattern (#26) and I can
> use the body from view V, the sleeves from view IV, and the neckline
> from view VI, just adding fabric for the train. I'm not sure what to
> do. Anyone have any comments???
that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment even with a
LOT of easing, and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a native
Caidiot, and most Period Patterns drive me deep into Native Dialect,
Your Rad Dude-ette-ness, ohmigawd!). Don't use the sleeve pieces exactly
as given, both PP and the Rocking Horse Farm houp patterns are off in
cut in the sleeve cap area.
Without a photo, it's hard to describe the proper cut for the sleeve
(Baroness Cynthia's website is down right now and I don't recall if she
gives a diagram). What you want is an offset seam to offset the drape
over the arm. You want to shift around the pattern piece so that when
you raise your arm the sleeve will 'break' over your wrist; the lowest
part of the sleeve shouldn't lie on the seam. The way the RR and PP
sleeve patterns are cut, the shortest portion of the sleeve is in the
inside seam next to the waist. When you raise your arm out in front of
you with this type of cut, the break is all wrong and what you get is a
twisting sleeve around your lower arm, creating the sensation of binding
and dragging, since the weight of the sleeve will actually twist
dramatically around your arm away from your body. It is an uncomfortable
sensation. I subscribe to Beau Brummel's theory of wearing clothing:
make sure it fits perfectly, put them on and then _forget about them_.
Clothes should not be annoying, even subtly annoying.
There are two really good diagrams I can think of in books right off
hand. Holkeboer is not one of them; the houpelande pattern given is
almost identical to the flawed one in Hill & Bucknell's Patterns of
Fashion, and is wrong. You want Carl Koehler's "History of Costume," (a
five-buck Dover paperback!), specifically the sleeve diagram next to the
"Woman of Siena," who is wearing exactly this type of sleeve (I'd cite
the page, but my Blond Husband has done the book filing again, *sigh*)--
or an even better diagram, page 95 of Jean Hunnisett's Period Costume
for Stage & Screen, Medieval - 1500." A sleeve cut in this manner will
not give one the effect of twisting the sleeve around the forearm at
I hope the following explanation makes sense: you want to offset the cut
of the sleeve cap in such a way so that the sleeve cap makes a
laying-down S shape; the rest of the pattern below the sleeve cap
remains the same. The seam then falls on the inside arm and the
shortest part of the sleeve falls directly on the wrist at rest in front
of the body. I used a standard oxford-type-shirt sleeve pattern, split,
to form the top of my houp sleeves, since I decided the PP wasn't worth
buying way back when I built a houp for my husband.
Very bad ascii art, out of proportion:
/ * \ <--- the * is the center top of the sleeve when
\ / \_
Hope this helps. When cut in this manner, the sleeve ends up looking
exactly like all those totally kewl representations of great flowing
sleeves in artwork and sculpture, an effect I think greatly to be
- --On Saturday, December 1, 2001 3:42 AM -0500 Jeanne Harney
> I'm thinking about making a black velvet sideless to go over the samethen we will both have gold underdresses
> underdress, but then again, I got this GORGEOUS gold fabric for the
> underdress today, and may want to save it for evening too. I'm kind of
> embarrassed...I killed polyesters for this fabric, which is something I
> never do, but it was what I wanted.
we'll be cute
- --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Jeanne Harney" <jeanne@p...> wrote:
> Rashid chimed in with:totally
> >This sounds wonderful! But I hope you won't forget the hat! No
> >houppelande like this would be complete without some type of
> >outrageous hat! I recommend an extra big version of the "donut &has
> >coxcomb" hat.
> Well, I kind of have to...since I'm the only one in the Barony who
> worn any hat, and now I have to teach them about hats, and I knowit has
> to be BIG to balance out the BIG dress. I don't think I can pulloff
> the hat Mistress Cynthia wore...can you send me a pic or a URL forthe
> donut and coxcomb?For donut & coxcomb see Cynthias articles on Mens & Womens Stuffed
Cynthia seperates the men's & women's, but if you look at a lot of
pictures, you will find that the women also wore a lot of the same
styles as the men. But there were some styles that were for women
only, which the men never wore, so the way she has them seperated
makes sense from that perspective.
- --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Ciorstan <ciorstan@m...> wrote:
> Anyone have any comments???armscye
> Yes. As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight
> that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment evenwith a
> LOT of easing, and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a nativeexactly
> Caidiot, and most Period Patterns drive me deep into Native Dialect,
> Your Rad Dude-ette-ness, ohmigawd!). Don't use the sleeve pieces
> as given, both PP and the Rocking Horse Farm houp patterns are offin
> cut in the sleeve cap area.she
> Without a photo, it's hard to describe the proper cut for the sleeve
> (Baroness Cynthia's website is down right now and I don't recall if
> gives a diagram..........All the stuff I snipped here was an excellent description of the
Houppelende sleeve issue!
I would like to add my two cents worth also.... it is confusing
enough that sometimes I just make a muslin mockup and cut it with
about 12 inches extra length on the sleeve cap end to allow for
adjustments. Then I pin fit the sleeve cap making sure the "bell"
or "trumpet" portion of the sleeve is oriented correctly. (you have
to sit down and use either a fork or pen to make sure the sleeve does
not pull at some weird angle) This usually results in the sleeve cap
being twisted about 30 degrees from where you would have expected
it. This makes a pattern such that you have to cut you left and
right sleeves with the pattern flipped over from one to the next.
This technique works best with a rather full sleeve. It does not
work quite so well with the type of sleeve that is very fitted on the
upper arm and then flares out from the elbow.
----- Original Message -----
> All the stuff I snipped here was an excellent description of the
> Houppelende sleeve issue!
But here's my question...the view of the sleeve I want to use is...open.
The pattern calls it "lined floor-length split tube sleeves, and wrist
length undersleeves", and they mention that they "cheat" by putting in a
fake undersleeve and a fake insert at the neck instead of making a
proper underdress, which of course, I'm doing. So...would any of this
be relevant?? I keep looking, and I've printed out Mistress Cynthia's
entire Houppelande section, but she uses a completely different sleeve
construction than I'm planning.
> I would like to add my two cents worth also.... it is confusing
> enough that sometimes I just make a muslin mockup and cut it with
> about 12 inches extra length on the sleeve cap end to allow for
> adjustments. Then I pin fit the sleeve cap making sure the "bell"
> or "trumpet" portion of the sleeve is oriented correctly. (you have
> to sit down and use either a fork or pen to make sure the sleeve does
> not pull at some weird angle) This usually results in the sleeve cap
> being twisted about 30 degrees from where you would have expected
> it. This makes a pattern such that you have to cut you left and
> right sleeves with the pattern flipped over from one to the next.
Once again, the sleeves never touch my arm from maybe 1 or 2 inches over
the actual shoulder...and the underdress is fine. I have 2 from the
design I'm using.
Also...I found Ron's fabric today. He's gonna be gorgeous. I'm making
him a "pseudo-period", or maybe it's period, but I haven't done any
research, though he's bought a coat/del/thingie like this before at
Pennsic. Basically like an open calf-length del, without the flap that
wraps over and hooks diagonally on the front (doesn't tie or close at
all) in a black satin brocade with gold dragons on it, trimmed in gold
satin at cuffs, collar, and down the front opening, with the same gold
satin pants and a black satin knee-length tunic. He likes the look, and
if I can get him into ANYTHING besides a small kilt, I feel
who has enough trouble getting Ron to play, especially because if he
can't wear the small kilt he wants to be a grubby peasant. This is the
first time in 4 years he's agreed to ANYTHING resembling nice garb.
- Ciorstan wrote:
>As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight armscyeOooooh....that explains it!! When I was working on my big fancy dress last
>that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment even with a
>LOT of easing,
month, I used (among several other references) the Period Patterns
Elizabethan. I recycled a perfectly-fitting bodice from an old dress, but
cut the sleeve pieces from the pattern; they were significantly smaller
than the armscye, and though I got them sewn in nicely, when I tried them
on I found that they were vastly too tight, and there were several
directions in which I couldn't move my arms! :-( I'm glad to know it's the
pattern's fault, not my own incompetence in sewing (well maybe a little of
that too...) ;-)
>and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a nativeLOL!!! I've never heard that before :-) Though I usually reside in the
West, my permanent home is in the Barony of the Angels - does that make me
a Caidiot too? <g>
(back to studying, Despina, I promise! your pictures are very cool, by the way)
- At 09:53 AM 12/3/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>VittoriaGlad you're studying. *wink* Thanks for the compliment.
>(back to studying, Despina, I promise! your pictures are very cool, by