Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: 12th night dress?
- <re: the houppe I wanna make for 12th night>
Replying to several messages at once on the same topic.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Katharine of Cate Hall" <catherinerogerscook@...>
A houppelande such as you describe is the garment favored by all the
> most intelligent, attractive and charming men and women you could
> ever hope to meet. The one you have in mind sounds wonderful! I'd
> just wear a simple gown during the day so that the full glory of the
> houppelande unfolds itself for the evening's festivities.
Yay! It's not just me. I think they're elegant...and I want something
"over the top" since I keep getting told that I'm the "expert" (quick!
someone save my Barony!) in garb for the area. I guess when most people
are wearing the Simplicity Irish gown or screwed up t-tunics I might be
a little more advanced than they are...but I'm NOT an expert. I just
I'm thinking about making a black velvet sideless to go over the same
underdress, but then again, I got this GORGEOUS gold fabric for the
underdress today, and may want to save it for evening too. I'm kind of
embarrassed...I killed polyesters for this fabric, which is something I
never do, but it was what I wanted.
From: "Lisa" <skyecat@...>
>Jeanne, have you seen Cynthia's site?
Yes! That is what gave me the inspiration for this dress!
>She has a lot of information on houppelandes. They are her thing,
>definitely. Have a look at the Devonshire hunting tapestries one she
>made for when she joined the Laurels....
And this brings up a question. I kind of understand how Cynthia did
hers. I also have the Period Patterns Houppe pattern (#26) and I can
use the body from view V, the sleeves from view IV, and the neckline
from view VI, just adding fabric for the train. I'm not sure what to
do. Anyone have any comments??? I have heard terrible things about the
instructions, etc on Period Patterns, but maybe it's because Mama made
me build Butterick patterns from scratch when I was 12, and Butterick
had a rep for writing instructions in Greek, but I don't have problems
with them. (so far...)
Also, what kind/color of fur would you use for trim? Or would you? The
gold underdress fabric is a burnished/antique gold, and I don't think I
can deal with a gold or gold/brown fur that'll match or look ok, so I'm
thinking I may want to use just black. Would that be ok? Or should I
skip the fur part altogether? Opinions???
Then Cassandra said:
>Be happy w/ your garb. Everyone dresses well and changes into even
>better garb for evening. I think you would be more comfortable
>saving the gown for court/feast/revel, but that is the chirurgeon
>talking. I just have a bad visual of someone stepping on your hem
>and having to die and me trying to treat/eval them and getting bodily
>fluids on MY garb. :)
This is what I didn't know. I've never been to any of these, but I
remember the lists last year with all the "ohmygod, did you see that
dress that soandso was wearing" and I got a little jealous, so I decided
I was gonna play this year. I'll try not to have anyone bleed on my
stuff, just for you!
>Midrealm 12th Night is a grat event for garb watching. Yours will be
>one to watch for.
<blush> I hope so.
>Shameless plug: I will be teaching both a weaving and massage class
>at 12th Night.
I'd like to hit both. Thanks for telling me.
Then Despina said:
>Make it! Wear it! Love it!
>You'll be the envy of everyone there!
Don't know about that, but I'm sure gonna try hard to make it come out
>If 'everyone' you know thought they were terrible, I guess you don't
>Morgan! The tremendous yardage that he puts into his beautiful houpes
>gotten him onto at least one scroll!
Yeah, but you've heard about the people in MY Barony...but that's ok.
They may actually be willing to learn. We'll find out, as I shamelessly
steal stuff and ideas from y'all and from other lists and start
teaching...next Wednesday is my veil/barbette/wimple class. Wish me
>I guess it would mean you don't know me either, as I think houpes are
Remind me if I drop a sleeve in the soup, or I trip over something and
break my arm...
>Most people who hate certain types of garments are either intimidated
>them and can't make them, or have never tried the style, or are
>on a preconcieved bias that is generally founded on a large untruth.
Well, I do have someone who will help me if I get stuck (mothers are
good that way, and after all, she was a couture seamstress for years,
even though she mostly quilts now) and she's trying REALLY hard to
understand "conspicuous consumption" after being a depression baby and
feeling that when you make something if the scraps are bigger than the
palm of your hand that you "wasted" something.
>Wear it for the evening activities though. I'd suggest changing about
>hour before feast, so as to better be aware of it's limitations on your
>movements before you try to eat while wearing it.
I intend to wear it for a few hours several times, so I can learn to
curtsey, walk with the "puddle" fabric in front of me, and that sort of
thing. I just hope there aren't stairs at the site. THAT may make me
unladylike, as I hike the damned thing up and throw it over my shoulder
Rashid chimed in with:
>This sounds wonderful! But I hope you won't forget the hat! No
>houppelande like this would be complete without some type of totally
>outrageous hat! I recommend an extra big version of the "donut &
Well, I kind of have to...since I'm the only one in the Barony who has
worn any hat, and now I have to teach them about hats, and I know it has
to be BIG to balance out the BIG dress. I don't think I can pull off
the hat Mistress Cynthia wore...can you send me a pic or a URL for the
donut and coxcomb? It appears that the butterfly hennin and the "oil
can" hats would both work...I just have to make sure that I dont' look
like the outfit is wearing ME...I'm not that big, only 5'1".
I really appreciate all the encouragement. I needed to know I wasn't
alone...this is NOT something that most people in my group would do.
One of my best friends is going with me, and she's doing the black and
gold theme as well (most of my Household is, and we're going to carry
the theme through to table linens and such) is making a black brocade
under-the-breast bodice and calling that "court garb". I love her,
Also to just take it over the edge, maybe a baldric with a fringe of
> And this brings up a question. I kind of understand how Cynthia didYes. As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight armscye
> hers. I also have the Period Patterns Houppe pattern (#26) and I can
> use the body from view V, the sleeves from view IV, and the neckline
> from view VI, just adding fabric for the train. I'm not sure what to
> do. Anyone have any comments???
that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment even with a
LOT of easing, and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a native
Caidiot, and most Period Patterns drive me deep into Native Dialect,
Your Rad Dude-ette-ness, ohmigawd!). Don't use the sleeve pieces exactly
as given, both PP and the Rocking Horse Farm houp patterns are off in
cut in the sleeve cap area.
Without a photo, it's hard to describe the proper cut for the sleeve
(Baroness Cynthia's website is down right now and I don't recall if she
gives a diagram). What you want is an offset seam to offset the drape
over the arm. You want to shift around the pattern piece so that when
you raise your arm the sleeve will 'break' over your wrist; the lowest
part of the sleeve shouldn't lie on the seam. The way the RR and PP
sleeve patterns are cut, the shortest portion of the sleeve is in the
inside seam next to the waist. When you raise your arm out in front of
you with this type of cut, the break is all wrong and what you get is a
twisting sleeve around your lower arm, creating the sensation of binding
and dragging, since the weight of the sleeve will actually twist
dramatically around your arm away from your body. It is an uncomfortable
sensation. I subscribe to Beau Brummel's theory of wearing clothing:
make sure it fits perfectly, put them on and then _forget about them_.
Clothes should not be annoying, even subtly annoying.
There are two really good diagrams I can think of in books right off
hand. Holkeboer is not one of them; the houpelande pattern given is
almost identical to the flawed one in Hill & Bucknell's Patterns of
Fashion, and is wrong. You want Carl Koehler's "History of Costume," (a
five-buck Dover paperback!), specifically the sleeve diagram next to the
"Woman of Siena," who is wearing exactly this type of sleeve (I'd cite
the page, but my Blond Husband has done the book filing again, *sigh*)--
or an even better diagram, page 95 of Jean Hunnisett's Period Costume
for Stage & Screen, Medieval - 1500." A sleeve cut in this manner will
not give one the effect of twisting the sleeve around the forearm at
I hope the following explanation makes sense: you want to offset the cut
of the sleeve cap in such a way so that the sleeve cap makes a
laying-down S shape; the rest of the pattern below the sleeve cap
remains the same. The seam then falls on the inside arm and the
shortest part of the sleeve falls directly on the wrist at rest in front
of the body. I used a standard oxford-type-shirt sleeve pattern, split,
to form the top of my houp sleeves, since I decided the PP wasn't worth
buying way back when I built a houp for my husband.
Very bad ascii art, out of proportion:
/ * \ <--- the * is the center top of the sleeve when
\ / \_
Hope this helps. When cut in this manner, the sleeve ends up looking
exactly like all those totally kewl representations of great flowing
sleeves in artwork and sculpture, an effect I think greatly to be
- --On Saturday, December 1, 2001 3:42 AM -0500 Jeanne Harney
> I'm thinking about making a black velvet sideless to go over the samethen we will both have gold underdresses
> underdress, but then again, I got this GORGEOUS gold fabric for the
> underdress today, and may want to save it for evening too. I'm kind of
> embarrassed...I killed polyesters for this fabric, which is something I
> never do, but it was what I wanted.
we'll be cute
- --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Jeanne Harney" <jeanne@p...> wrote:
> Rashid chimed in with:totally
> >This sounds wonderful! But I hope you won't forget the hat! No
> >houppelande like this would be complete without some type of
> >outrageous hat! I recommend an extra big version of the "donut &has
> >coxcomb" hat.
> Well, I kind of have to...since I'm the only one in the Barony who
> worn any hat, and now I have to teach them about hats, and I knowit has
> to be BIG to balance out the BIG dress. I don't think I can pulloff
> the hat Mistress Cynthia wore...can you send me a pic or a URL forthe
> donut and coxcomb?For donut & coxcomb see Cynthias articles on Mens & Womens Stuffed
Cynthia seperates the men's & women's, but if you look at a lot of
pictures, you will find that the women also wore a lot of the same
styles as the men. But there were some styles that were for women
only, which the men never wore, so the way she has them seperated
makes sense from that perspective.
- --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Ciorstan <ciorstan@m...> wrote:
> Anyone have any comments???armscye
> Yes. As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight
> that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment evenwith a
> LOT of easing, and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a nativeexactly
> Caidiot, and most Period Patterns drive me deep into Native Dialect,
> Your Rad Dude-ette-ness, ohmigawd!). Don't use the sleeve pieces
> as given, both PP and the Rocking Horse Farm houp patterns are offin
> cut in the sleeve cap area.she
> Without a photo, it's hard to describe the proper cut for the sleeve
> (Baroness Cynthia's website is down right now and I don't recall if
> gives a diagram..........All the stuff I snipped here was an excellent description of the
Houppelende sleeve issue!
I would like to add my two cents worth also.... it is confusing
enough that sometimes I just make a muslin mockup and cut it with
about 12 inches extra length on the sleeve cap end to allow for
adjustments. Then I pin fit the sleeve cap making sure the "bell"
or "trumpet" portion of the sleeve is oriented correctly. (you have
to sit down and use either a fork or pen to make sure the sleeve does
not pull at some weird angle) This usually results in the sleeve cap
being twisted about 30 degrees from where you would have expected
it. This makes a pattern such that you have to cut you left and
right sleeves with the pattern flipped over from one to the next.
This technique works best with a rather full sleeve. It does not
work quite so well with the type of sleeve that is very fitted on the
upper arm and then flares out from the elbow.
----- Original Message -----
> All the stuff I snipped here was an excellent description of the
> Houppelende sleeve issue!
But here's my question...the view of the sleeve I want to use is...open.
The pattern calls it "lined floor-length split tube sleeves, and wrist
length undersleeves", and they mention that they "cheat" by putting in a
fake undersleeve and a fake insert at the neck instead of making a
proper underdress, which of course, I'm doing. So...would any of this
be relevant?? I keep looking, and I've printed out Mistress Cynthia's
entire Houppelande section, but she uses a completely different sleeve
construction than I'm planning.
> I would like to add my two cents worth also.... it is confusing
> enough that sometimes I just make a muslin mockup and cut it with
> about 12 inches extra length on the sleeve cap end to allow for
> adjustments. Then I pin fit the sleeve cap making sure the "bell"
> or "trumpet" portion of the sleeve is oriented correctly. (you have
> to sit down and use either a fork or pen to make sure the sleeve does
> not pull at some weird angle) This usually results in the sleeve cap
> being twisted about 30 degrees from where you would have expected
> it. This makes a pattern such that you have to cut you left and
> right sleeves with the pattern flipped over from one to the next.
Once again, the sleeves never touch my arm from maybe 1 or 2 inches over
the actual shoulder...and the underdress is fine. I have 2 from the
design I'm using.
Also...I found Ron's fabric today. He's gonna be gorgeous. I'm making
him a "pseudo-period", or maybe it's period, but I haven't done any
research, though he's bought a coat/del/thingie like this before at
Pennsic. Basically like an open calf-length del, without the flap that
wraps over and hooks diagonally on the front (doesn't tie or close at
all) in a black satin brocade with gold dragons on it, trimmed in gold
satin at cuffs, collar, and down the front opening, with the same gold
satin pants and a black satin knee-length tunic. He likes the look, and
if I can get him into ANYTHING besides a small kilt, I feel
who has enough trouble getting Ron to play, especially because if he
can't wear the small kilt he wants to be a grubby peasant. This is the
first time in 4 years he's agreed to ANYTHING resembling nice garb.
- Ciorstan wrote:
>As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight armscyeOooooh....that explains it!! When I was working on my big fancy dress last
>that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment even with a
>LOT of easing,
month, I used (among several other references) the Period Patterns
Elizabethan. I recycled a perfectly-fitting bodice from an old dress, but
cut the sleeve pieces from the pattern; they were significantly smaller
than the armscye, and though I got them sewn in nicely, when I tried them
on I found that they were vastly too tight, and there were several
directions in which I couldn't move my arms! :-( I'm glad to know it's the
pattern's fault, not my own incompetence in sewing (well maybe a little of
that too...) ;-)
>and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a nativeLOL!!! I've never heard that before :-) Though I usually reside in the
West, my permanent home is in the Barony of the Angels - does that make me
a Caidiot too? <g>
(back to studying, Despina, I promise! your pictures are very cool, by the way)
- At 09:53 AM 12/3/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>VittoriaGlad you're studying. *wink* Thanks for the compliment.
>(back to studying, Despina, I promise! your pictures are very cool, by