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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: 12th night dress?

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  • Jeanne Harney
    Replying to several messages at once on the same topic. ... From: Katharine of Cate Hall
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
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      <re: the houppe I wanna make for 12th night>
      Replying to several messages at once on the same topic.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Katharine of Cate Hall" <catherinerogerscook@...>

      A houppelande such as you describe is the garment favored by all the
      > most intelligent, attractive and charming men and women you could
      > ever hope to meet. The one you have in mind sounds wonderful! I'd
      > just wear a simple gown during the day so that the full glory of the
      > houppelande unfolds itself for the evening's festivities.

      Yay! It's not just me. I think they're elegant...and I want something
      "over the top" since I keep getting told that I'm the "expert" (quick!
      someone save my Barony!) in garb for the area. I guess when most people
      are wearing the Simplicity Irish gown or screwed up t-tunics I might be
      a little more advanced than they are...but I'm NOT an expert. I just
      like research.
      I'm thinking about making a black velvet sideless to go over the same
      underdress, but then again, I got this GORGEOUS gold fabric for the
      underdress today, and may want to save it for evening too. I'm kind of
      embarrassed...I killed polyesters for this fabric, which is something I
      never do, but it was what I wanted.

      From: "Lisa" <skyecat@...>

      >Jeanne, have you seen Cynthia's site?

      Yes! That is what gave me the inspiration for this dress!


      >She has a lot of information on houppelandes. They are her thing,
      >definitely. Have a look at the Devonshire hunting tapestries one she
      >made for when she joined the Laurels....

      And this brings up a question. I kind of understand how Cynthia did
      hers. I also have the Period Patterns Houppe pattern (#26) and I can
      use the body from view V, the sleeves from view IV, and the neckline
      from view VI, just adding fabric for the train. I'm not sure what to
      do. Anyone have any comments??? I have heard terrible things about the
      instructions, etc on Period Patterns, but maybe it's because Mama made
      me build Butterick patterns from scratch when I was 12, and Butterick
      had a rep for writing instructions in Greek, but I don't have problems
      with them. (so far...)
      Also, what kind/color of fur would you use for trim? Or would you? The
      gold underdress fabric is a burnished/antique gold, and I don't think I
      can deal with a gold or gold/brown fur that'll match or look ok, so I'm
      thinking I may want to use just black. Would that be ok? Or should I
      skip the fur part altogether? Opinions???

      Then Cassandra said:
      >Be happy w/ your garb. Everyone dresses well and changes into even
      >better garb for evening. I think you would be more comfortable
      >saving the gown for court/feast/revel, but that is the chirurgeon
      >talking. I just have a bad visual of someone stepping on your hem
      >and having to die and me trying to treat/eval them and getting bodily
      >fluids on MY garb. :)

      This is what I didn't know. I've never been to any of these, but I
      remember the lists last year with all the "ohmygod, did you see that
      dress that soandso was wearing" and I got a little jealous, so I decided
      I was gonna play this year. I'll try not to have anyone bleed on my
      stuff, just for you!

      >Midrealm 12th Night is a grat event for garb watching. Yours will be
      >one to watch for.

      <blush> I hope so.

      >Shameless plug: I will be teaching both a weaving and massage class
      >at 12th Night.

      I'd like to hit both. Thanks for telling me.

      Then Despina said:

      >Make it! Wear it! Love it!

      >You'll be the envy of everyone there!

      Don't know about that, but I'm sure gonna try hard to make it come out
      right.

      >If 'everyone' you know thought they were terrible, I guess you don't
      know
      >Morgan! The tremendous yardage that he puts into his beautiful houpes
      has
      >gotten him onto at least one scroll!

      Yeah, but you've heard about the people in MY Barony...but that's ok.
      They may actually be willing to learn. We'll find out, as I shamelessly
      steal stuff and ideas from y'all and from other lists and start
      teaching...next Wednesday is my veil/barbette/wimple class. Wish me
      luck!!

      >I guess it would mean you don't know me either, as I think houpes are
      >scrumptious!

      Remind me if I drop a sleeve in the soup, or I trip over something and
      break my arm...

      >Most people who hate certain types of garments are either intimidated
      by
      >them and can't make them, or have never tried the style, or are
      operating
      >on a preconcieved bias that is generally founded on a large untruth.

      Well, I do have someone who will help me if I get stuck (mothers are
      good that way, and after all, she was a couture seamstress for years,
      even though she mostly quilts now) and she's trying REALLY hard to
      understand "conspicuous consumption" after being a depression baby and
      feeling that when you make something if the scraps are bigger than the
      palm of your hand that you "wasted" something.

      >Wear it for the evening activities though. I'd suggest changing about
      an
      >hour before feast, so as to better be aware of it's limitations on your
      >movements before you try to eat while wearing it.

      I intend to wear it for a few hours several times, so I can learn to
      curtsey, walk with the "puddle" fabric in front of me, and that sort of
      thing. I just hope there aren't stairs at the site. THAT may make me
      unladylike, as I hike the damned thing up and throw it over my shoulder
      or something...

      Rashid chimed in with:
      >This sounds wonderful! But I hope you won't forget the hat! No
      >houppelande like this would be complete without some type of totally
      >outrageous hat! I recommend an extra big version of the "donut &
      >coxcomb" hat.

      Well, I kind of have to...since I'm the only one in the Barony who has
      worn any hat, and now I have to teach them about hats, and I know it has
      to be BIG to balance out the BIG dress. I don't think I can pull off
      the hat Mistress Cynthia wore...can you send me a pic or a URL for the
      donut and coxcomb? It appears that the butterfly hennin and the "oil
      can" hats would both work...I just have to make sure that I dont' look
      like the outfit is wearing ME...I'm not that big, only 5'1".

      I really appreciate all the encouragement. I needed to know I wasn't
      alone...this is NOT something that most people in my group would do.
      One of my best friends is going with me, and she's doing the black and
      gold theme as well (most of my Household is, and we're going to carry
      the theme through to table linens and such) is making a black brocade
      under-the-breast bodice and calling that "court garb". I love her,
      but...

      Jeanne
      Also to just take it over the edge, maybe a baldric with a fringe of
      little bells!
    • Ciorstan
      ... Yes. As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight armscye that doesn t necessarily match up to the body of the garment even with a LOT of
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
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        > And this brings up a question. I kind of understand how Cynthia did
        > hers. I also have the Period Patterns Houppe pattern (#26) and I can
        > use the body from view V, the sleeves from view IV, and the neckline
        > from view VI, just adding fabric for the train. I'm not sure what to
        > do. Anyone have any comments???

        Yes. As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight armscye
        that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment even with a
        LOT of easing, and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a native
        Caidiot, and most Period Patterns drive me deep into Native Dialect,
        Your Rad Dude-ette-ness, ohmigawd!). Don't use the sleeve pieces exactly
        as given, both PP and the Rocking Horse Farm houp patterns are off in
        cut in the sleeve cap area.

        Without a photo, it's hard to describe the proper cut for the sleeve
        (Baroness Cynthia's website is down right now and I don't recall if she
        gives a diagram). What you want is an offset seam to offset the drape
        over the arm. You want to shift around the pattern piece so that when
        you raise your arm the sleeve will 'break' over your wrist; the lowest
        part of the sleeve shouldn't lie on the seam. The way the RR and PP
        sleeve patterns are cut, the shortest portion of the sleeve is in the
        inside seam next to the waist. When you raise your arm out in front of
        you with this type of cut, the break is all wrong and what you get is a
        twisting sleeve around your lower arm, creating the sensation of binding
        and dragging, since the weight of the sleeve will actually twist
        dramatically around your arm away from your body. It is an uncomfortable
        sensation. I subscribe to Beau Brummel's theory of wearing clothing:
        make sure it fits perfectly, put them on and then _forget about them_.
        Clothes should not be annoying, even subtly annoying.

        There are two really good diagrams I can think of in books right off
        hand. Holkeboer is not one of them; the houpelande pattern given is
        almost identical to the flawed one in Hill & Bucknell's Patterns of
        Fashion, and is wrong. You want Carl Koehler's "History of Costume," (a
        five-buck Dover paperback!), specifically the sleeve diagram next to the
        "Woman of Siena," who is wearing exactly this type of sleeve (I'd cite
        the page, but my Blond Husband has done the book filing again, *sigh*)--
        or an even better diagram, page 95 of Jean Hunnisett's Period Costume
        for Stage & Screen, Medieval - 1500." A sleeve cut in this manner will
        not give one the effect of twisting the sleeve around the forearm at
        all.

        I hope the following explanation makes sense: you want to offset the cut
        of the sleeve cap in such a way so that the sleeve cap makes a
        laying-down S shape; the rest of the pattern below the sleeve cap
        remains the same. The seam then falls on the inside arm and the
        shortest part of the sleeve falls directly on the wrist at rest in front
        of the body. I used a standard oxford-type-shirt sleeve pattern, split,
        to form the top of my houp sleeves, since I decided the PP wasn't worth
        buying way back when I built a houp for my husband.

        Very bad ascii art, out of proportion:

        - -
        / * \ <--- the * is the center top of the sleeve when
        set-in.
        \ / \_
        \___/

        Hope this helps. When cut in this manner, the sleeve ends up looking
        exactly like all those totally kewl representations of great flowing
        sleeves in artwork and sculpture, an effect I think greatly to be
        desired.

        ciorstan
      • Zohra Rawling
        --On Saturday, December 1, 2001 3:42 AM -0500 Jeanne Harney ... then we will both have gold underdresses ^_^ *snicker* we ll be cute Ysabella
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
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          --On Saturday, December 1, 2001 3:42 AM -0500 Jeanne Harney
          <jeanne@...> wrote:

          > I'm thinking about making a black velvet sideless to go over the same
          > underdress, but then again, I got this GORGEOUS gold fabric for the
          > underdress today, and may want to save it for evening too. I'm kind of
          > embarrassed...I killed polyesters for this fabric, which is something I
          > never do, but it was what I wanted.


          then we will both have gold underdresses

          ^_^

          *snicker*

          we'll be cute


          Ysabella
        • unclrashid@aol.com
          ... totally ... has ... it has ... off ... the ... For donut & coxcomb see Cynthias articles on Mens & Womens Stuffed roll hats: http://www.virtue.to/articles/
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Jeanne Harney" <jeanne@p...> wrote:
            > Rashid chimed in with:
            > >This sounds wonderful! But I hope you won't forget the hat! No
            > >houppelande like this would be complete without some type of
            totally
            > >outrageous hat! I recommend an extra big version of the "donut &
            > >coxcomb" hat.
            >
            > Well, I kind of have to...since I'm the only one in the Barony who
            has
            > worn any hat, and now I have to teach them about hats, and I know
            it has
            > to be BIG to balance out the BIG dress. I don't think I can pull
            off
            > the hat Mistress Cynthia wore...can you send me a pic or a URL for
            the
            > donut and coxcomb?

            For donut & coxcomb see Cynthias articles on Mens & Womens Stuffed
            roll hats:

            http://www.virtue.to/articles/

            Cynthia seperates the men's & women's, but if you look at a lot of
            pictures, you will find that the women also wore a lot of the same
            styles as the men. But there were some styles that were for women
            only, which the men never wore, so the way she has them seperated
            makes sense from that perspective.

            Rashid
          • unclrashid@aol.com
            ... armscye ... with a ... exactly ... in ... she ... All the stuff I snipped here was an excellent description of the Houppelende sleeve issue! I would like
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Ciorstan <ciorstan@m...> wrote:
              > Anyone have any comments???
              >
              > Yes. As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight
              armscye
              > that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment even
              with a
              > LOT of easing, and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a native
              > Caidiot, and most Period Patterns drive me deep into Native Dialect,
              > Your Rad Dude-ette-ness, ohmigawd!). Don't use the sleeve pieces
              exactly
              > as given, both PP and the Rocking Horse Farm houp patterns are off
              in
              > cut in the sleeve cap area.
              >
              > Without a photo, it's hard to describe the proper cut for the sleeve
              > (Baroness Cynthia's website is down right now and I don't recall if
              she
              > gives a diagram..........


              All the stuff I snipped here was an excellent description of the
              Houppelende sleeve issue!

              I would like to add my two cents worth also.... it is confusing
              enough that sometimes I just make a muslin mockup and cut it with
              about 12 inches extra length on the sleeve cap end to allow for
              adjustments. Then I pin fit the sleeve cap making sure the "bell"
              or "trumpet" portion of the sleeve is oriented correctly. (you have
              to sit down and use either a fork or pen to make sure the sleeve does
              not pull at some weird angle) This usually results in the sleeve cap
              being twisted about 30 degrees from where you would have expected
              it. This makes a pattern such that you have to cut you left and
              right sleeves with the pattern flipped over from one to the next.

              This technique works best with a rather full sleeve. It does not
              work quite so well with the type of sleeve that is very fitted on the
              upper arm and then flares out from the elbow.

              Rashid
            • Jeanne Harney
              ... From: ... But here s my question...the view of the sleeve I want to use is...open. The pattern calls it lined floor-length split tube
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <unclrashid@...>

                > All the stuff I snipped here was an excellent description of the
                > Houppelende sleeve issue!

                But here's my question...the view of the sleeve I want to use is...open.
                The pattern calls it "lined floor-length split tube sleeves, and wrist
                length undersleeves", and they mention that they "cheat" by putting in a
                fake undersleeve and a fake insert at the neck instead of making a
                proper underdress, which of course, I'm doing. So...would any of this
                be relevant?? I keep looking, and I've printed out Mistress Cynthia's
                entire Houppelande section, but she uses a completely different sleeve
                construction than I'm planning.

                > I would like to add my two cents worth also.... it is confusing
                > enough that sometimes I just make a muslin mockup and cut it with
                > about 12 inches extra length on the sleeve cap end to allow for
                > adjustments. Then I pin fit the sleeve cap making sure the "bell"
                > or "trumpet" portion of the sleeve is oriented correctly. (you have
                > to sit down and use either a fork or pen to make sure the sleeve does
                > not pull at some weird angle) This usually results in the sleeve cap
                > being twisted about 30 degrees from where you would have expected
                > it. This makes a pattern such that you have to cut you left and
                > right sleeves with the pattern flipped over from one to the next.

                Once again, the sleeves never touch my arm from maybe 1 or 2 inches over
                the actual shoulder...and the underdress is fine. I have 2 from the
                design I'm using.

                Also...I found Ron's fabric today. He's gonna be gorgeous. I'm making
                him a "pseudo-period", or maybe it's period, but I haven't done any
                research, though he's bought a coat/del/thingie like this before at
                Pennsic. Basically like an open calf-length del, without the flap that
                wraps over and hooks diagonally on the front (doesn't tie or close at
                all) in a black satin brocade with gold dragons on it, trimmed in gold
                satin at cuffs, collar, and down the front opening, with the same gold
                satin pants and a black satin knee-length tunic. He likes the look, and
                if I can get him into ANYTHING besides a small kilt, I feel
                fortunate!!!

                Jeanne
                who has enough trouble getting Ron to play, especially because if he
                can't wear the small kilt he wants to be a grubby peasant. This is the
                first time in 4 years he's agreed to ANYTHING resembling nice garb.
              • Ariane Helou
                ... Oooooh....that explains it!! When I was working on my big fancy dress last month, I used (among several other references) the Period Patterns Elizabethan.
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 3, 2001
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                  Ciorstan wrote:
                  >As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight armscye
                  >that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment even with a
                  >LOT of easing,

                  Oooooh....that explains it!! When I was working on my big fancy dress last
                  month, I used (among several other references) the Period Patterns
                  Elizabethan. I recycled a perfectly-fitting bodice from an old dress, but
                  cut the sleeve pieces from the pattern; they were significantly smaller
                  than the armscye, and though I got them sewn in nicely, when I tried them
                  on I found that they were vastly too tight, and there were several
                  directions in which I couldn't move my arms! :-( I'm glad to know it's the
                  pattern's fault, not my own incompetence in sewing (well maybe a little of
                  that too...) ;-)

                  >and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a native
                  >Caidiot,

                  LOL!!! I've never heard that before :-) Though I usually reside in the
                  West, my permanent home is in the Barony of the Angels - does that make me
                  a Caidiot too? <g>

                  Vittoria
                  (back to studying, Despina, I promise! your pictures are very cool, by the way)
                • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                  ... Glad you re studying. *wink* Thanks for the compliment. Smiles, Despina
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 3, 2001
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                    At 09:53 AM 12/3/2001 -0800, you wrote:
                    >Vittoria
                    >(back to studying, Despina, I promise! your pictures are very cool, by
                    >the way)

                    Glad you're studying. *wink* Thanks for the compliment.

                    Smiles,
                    Despina
                  • Guernen Cimarguid
                    don t know why, but I just keep reading the title on this thread as 12th (century) night-dress... maybe I m tired? ;-) Guernen
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 3, 2001
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                      don't know why, but I just keep reading the title on this thread as
                      12th (century) night-dress...

                      maybe I'm tired? ;-)

                      Guernen
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