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12th night dress?

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  • Jeanne Harney
    Ok. I think I have an idea about what to make for 12th night...I want a huge, full-circle houppelande, made of black cotton velveteen. I m talking 6 inches to
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 29, 2001
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      Ok. I think I have an idea about what to make for 12th night...I want a
      huge, full-circle houppelande, made of black cotton velveteen. I'm
      talking 6 inches to a foot of puddling in the front of the thing, and a
      4 or 5 foot train. Fur trimmed. Those sleeves that are slashed at the
      shoulder and hit the floor. V-necked. Then a goldish/brown brocade
      underdress/cotehardie. Is this even worth thinking about??
      And I have a serious question. I'm going to Kingdom 12th night for the
      Midrealm, and there's shopping, and classes, and all sorts of stuff all
      day long, THEN feast, then court. Would I wear something a little
      less...over the top for the day, then change for dinner/court? Or just
      traipse around in 25 pounds of fabric all day?

      Everyone I know says that houppes are the ugliest things they've ever
      seen. And the most impractical. And all the other negatives you can
      think of. But I want one...

      Jeanne
      whose husband will "match" in a gold del, and gold baggy pants with a
      black tunic, all in silk.


      "If I had been alive in the time of Rubens, I would have been revered as
      a fabulous model...Kate Moss, she would have been the paint
      brush." -Dawn French
    • Katharine of Cate Hall
      ... A houppelande such as you describe is the garment favored by all the most intelligent, attractive and charming men and women you could ever hope to meet.
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 29, 2001
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        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Jeanne Harney" <jeanne@p...> wrote:
        > Ok. I think I have an idea about what to make for 12th night...I
        >want a huge, full-circle houppelande Is this even worth thinking
        >about?? Everyone I know says that houppes are the ugliest things
        >they've ever seen. And the most impractical. And all the other
        >negatives you can think of. But I want one...

        A houppelande such as you describe is the garment favored by all the
        most intelligent, attractive and charming men and women you could
        ever hope to meet. The one you have in mind sounds wonderful! I'd
        just wear a simple gown during the day so that the full glory of the
        houppelande unfolds itself for the evening's festivities.

        Katharine of Cate Hall
      • Lisa
        ... ever ... can ... a ... Jeanne, have you seen Cynthia s site? http://www.virtue.to/articles/ She has a lot of information on houppelandes. They are her
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 30, 2001
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Jeanne Harney" <jeanne@p...> wrote:

          > Everyone I know says that houppes are the ugliest things they've
          ever
          > seen. And the most impractical. And all the other negatives you
          can
          > think of. But I want one...
          >
          > Jeanne
          > whose husband will "match" in a gold del, and gold baggy pants with
          a
          > black tunic, all in silk.
          >

          Jeanne, have you seen Cynthia's site?

          http://www.virtue.to/articles/

          She has a lot of information on houppelandes. They are her thing,
          definitely. Have a look at the Devonshire hunting tapestries one she
          made for when she joined the Laurels....

          Lisa
        • loom@verizon.net
          Be happy w/ your garb. Everyone dresses well and changes into even better garb for evening. I think you would be more comfortable saving the gown for
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 30, 2001
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            Be happy w/ your garb. Everyone dresses well and changes into even
            better garb for evening. I think you would be more comfortable
            saving the gown for court/feast/revel, but that is the chirurgeon
            talking. I just have a bad visual of someone stepping on your hem
            and having to die and me trying to treat/eval them and getting bodily
            fluids on MY garb. :)

            Midrealm 12th Night is a grat event for garb watching. Yours will be
            one to watch for.

            Shameless plug: I will be teaching both a weaving and massage class
            at 12th Night.

            Cassandra


            > And I have a serious question. I'm going to Kingdom 12th night for
            the
            > Midrealm, and there's shopping, and classes, and all sorts of stuff
            all
            > day long, THEN feast, then court. Would I wear something a little
            > less...over the top for the day, then change for dinner/court? Or
            just
            > traipse around in 25 pounds of fabric all day?
            >
            > Everyone I know says that houppes are the ugliest things they've
            ever
            > seen. And the most impractical. And all the other negatives you
            can
            > think of. But I want one...
            >
            > Jeanne
            > whose husband will "match" in a gold del, and gold baggy pants with
            a
            > black tunic, all in silk.
            >
            >
            > "If I had been alive in the time of Rubens, I would have been
            revered as
            > a fabulous model...Kate Moss, she would have been the paint
            > brush." -Dawn French
          • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
            Jeanne, Make it! Wear it! Love it! You ll be the envy of everyone there! If everyone you know thought they were terrible, I guess you don t know Morgan!
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 30, 2001
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              Jeanne,

              Make it! Wear it! Love it!

              You'll be the envy of everyone there!

              If 'everyone' you know thought they were terrible, I guess you don't know
              Morgan! The tremendous yardage that he puts into his beautiful houpes has
              gotten him onto at least one scroll!

              I guess it would mean you don't know me either, as I think houpes are
              scrumptious!

              Most people who hate certain types of garments are either intimidated by
              them and can't make them, or have never tried the style, or are operating
              on a preconcieved bias that is generally founded on a large untruth.

              Do it!

              Wear it for the evening activities though. I'd suggest changing about an
              hour before feast, so as to better be aware of it's limitations on your
              movements before you try to eat while wearing it.

              Smiles,
              Despina
            • unclrashid@aol.com
              ... want a ... and a ... the ... This sounds wonderful! But I hope you won t forget the hat! No houppelande like this would be complete without some type of
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 30, 2001
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                --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Jeanne Harney" <jeanne@p...> wrote:
                > Ok. I think I have an idea about what to make for 12th night...I
                want a
                > huge, full-circle houppelande, made of black cotton velveteen. I'm
                > talking 6 inches to a foot of puddling in the front of the thing,
                and a
                > 4 or 5 foot train. Fur trimmed. Those sleeves that are slashed at
                the
                > shoulder and hit the floor. V-necked. Then a goldish/brown brocade
                > underdress/cotehardie. Is this even worth thinking about??


                This sounds wonderful! But I hope you won't forget the hat! No
                houppelande like this would be complete without some type of totally
                outrageous hat! I recommend an extra big version of the "donut &
                coxcomb" hat.

                Also to just take it over the edge, maybe a baldric with a fringe of
                little bells!


                Rashid
              • Jeanne Harney
                Replying to several messages at once on the same topic. ... From: Katharine of Cate Hall
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
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                  <re: the houppe I wanna make for 12th night>
                  Replying to several messages at once on the same topic.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Katharine of Cate Hall" <catherinerogerscook@...>

                  A houppelande such as you describe is the garment favored by all the
                  > most intelligent, attractive and charming men and women you could
                  > ever hope to meet. The one you have in mind sounds wonderful! I'd
                  > just wear a simple gown during the day so that the full glory of the
                  > houppelande unfolds itself for the evening's festivities.

                  Yay! It's not just me. I think they're elegant...and I want something
                  "over the top" since I keep getting told that I'm the "expert" (quick!
                  someone save my Barony!) in garb for the area. I guess when most people
                  are wearing the Simplicity Irish gown or screwed up t-tunics I might be
                  a little more advanced than they are...but I'm NOT an expert. I just
                  like research.
                  I'm thinking about making a black velvet sideless to go over the same
                  underdress, but then again, I got this GORGEOUS gold fabric for the
                  underdress today, and may want to save it for evening too. I'm kind of
                  embarrassed...I killed polyesters for this fabric, which is something I
                  never do, but it was what I wanted.

                  From: "Lisa" <skyecat@...>

                  >Jeanne, have you seen Cynthia's site?

                  Yes! That is what gave me the inspiration for this dress!


                  >She has a lot of information on houppelandes. They are her thing,
                  >definitely. Have a look at the Devonshire hunting tapestries one she
                  >made for when she joined the Laurels....

                  And this brings up a question. I kind of understand how Cynthia did
                  hers. I also have the Period Patterns Houppe pattern (#26) and I can
                  use the body from view V, the sleeves from view IV, and the neckline
                  from view VI, just adding fabric for the train. I'm not sure what to
                  do. Anyone have any comments??? I have heard terrible things about the
                  instructions, etc on Period Patterns, but maybe it's because Mama made
                  me build Butterick patterns from scratch when I was 12, and Butterick
                  had a rep for writing instructions in Greek, but I don't have problems
                  with them. (so far...)
                  Also, what kind/color of fur would you use for trim? Or would you? The
                  gold underdress fabric is a burnished/antique gold, and I don't think I
                  can deal with a gold or gold/brown fur that'll match or look ok, so I'm
                  thinking I may want to use just black. Would that be ok? Or should I
                  skip the fur part altogether? Opinions???

                  Then Cassandra said:
                  >Be happy w/ your garb. Everyone dresses well and changes into even
                  >better garb for evening. I think you would be more comfortable
                  >saving the gown for court/feast/revel, but that is the chirurgeon
                  >talking. I just have a bad visual of someone stepping on your hem
                  >and having to die and me trying to treat/eval them and getting bodily
                  >fluids on MY garb. :)

                  This is what I didn't know. I've never been to any of these, but I
                  remember the lists last year with all the "ohmygod, did you see that
                  dress that soandso was wearing" and I got a little jealous, so I decided
                  I was gonna play this year. I'll try not to have anyone bleed on my
                  stuff, just for you!

                  >Midrealm 12th Night is a grat event for garb watching. Yours will be
                  >one to watch for.

                  <blush> I hope so.

                  >Shameless plug: I will be teaching both a weaving and massage class
                  >at 12th Night.

                  I'd like to hit both. Thanks for telling me.

                  Then Despina said:

                  >Make it! Wear it! Love it!

                  >You'll be the envy of everyone there!

                  Don't know about that, but I'm sure gonna try hard to make it come out
                  right.

                  >If 'everyone' you know thought they were terrible, I guess you don't
                  know
                  >Morgan! The tremendous yardage that he puts into his beautiful houpes
                  has
                  >gotten him onto at least one scroll!

                  Yeah, but you've heard about the people in MY Barony...but that's ok.
                  They may actually be willing to learn. We'll find out, as I shamelessly
                  steal stuff and ideas from y'all and from other lists and start
                  teaching...next Wednesday is my veil/barbette/wimple class. Wish me
                  luck!!

                  >I guess it would mean you don't know me either, as I think houpes are
                  >scrumptious!

                  Remind me if I drop a sleeve in the soup, or I trip over something and
                  break my arm...

                  >Most people who hate certain types of garments are either intimidated
                  by
                  >them and can't make them, or have never tried the style, or are
                  operating
                  >on a preconcieved bias that is generally founded on a large untruth.

                  Well, I do have someone who will help me if I get stuck (mothers are
                  good that way, and after all, she was a couture seamstress for years,
                  even though she mostly quilts now) and she's trying REALLY hard to
                  understand "conspicuous consumption" after being a depression baby and
                  feeling that when you make something if the scraps are bigger than the
                  palm of your hand that you "wasted" something.

                  >Wear it for the evening activities though. I'd suggest changing about
                  an
                  >hour before feast, so as to better be aware of it's limitations on your
                  >movements before you try to eat while wearing it.

                  I intend to wear it for a few hours several times, so I can learn to
                  curtsey, walk with the "puddle" fabric in front of me, and that sort of
                  thing. I just hope there aren't stairs at the site. THAT may make me
                  unladylike, as I hike the damned thing up and throw it over my shoulder
                  or something...

                  Rashid chimed in with:
                  >This sounds wonderful! But I hope you won't forget the hat! No
                  >houppelande like this would be complete without some type of totally
                  >outrageous hat! I recommend an extra big version of the "donut &
                  >coxcomb" hat.

                  Well, I kind of have to...since I'm the only one in the Barony who has
                  worn any hat, and now I have to teach them about hats, and I know it has
                  to be BIG to balance out the BIG dress. I don't think I can pull off
                  the hat Mistress Cynthia wore...can you send me a pic or a URL for the
                  donut and coxcomb? It appears that the butterfly hennin and the "oil
                  can" hats would both work...I just have to make sure that I dont' look
                  like the outfit is wearing ME...I'm not that big, only 5'1".

                  I really appreciate all the encouragement. I needed to know I wasn't
                  alone...this is NOT something that most people in my group would do.
                  One of my best friends is going with me, and she's doing the black and
                  gold theme as well (most of my Household is, and we're going to carry
                  the theme through to table linens and such) is making a black brocade
                  under-the-breast bodice and calling that "court garb". I love her,
                  but...

                  Jeanne
                  Also to just take it over the edge, maybe a baldric with a fringe of
                  little bells!
                • Ciorstan
                  ... Yes. As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight armscye that doesn t necessarily match up to the body of the garment even with a LOT of
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
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                    > And this brings up a question. I kind of understand how Cynthia did
                    > hers. I also have the Period Patterns Houppe pattern (#26) and I can
                    > use the body from view V, the sleeves from view IV, and the neckline
                    > from view VI, just adding fabric for the train. I'm not sure what to
                    > do. Anyone have any comments???

                    Yes. As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight armscye
                    that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment even with a
                    LOT of easing, and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a native
                    Caidiot, and most Period Patterns drive me deep into Native Dialect,
                    Your Rad Dude-ette-ness, ohmigawd!). Don't use the sleeve pieces exactly
                    as given, both PP and the Rocking Horse Farm houp patterns are off in
                    cut in the sleeve cap area.

                    Without a photo, it's hard to describe the proper cut for the sleeve
                    (Baroness Cynthia's website is down right now and I don't recall if she
                    gives a diagram). What you want is an offset seam to offset the drape
                    over the arm. You want to shift around the pattern piece so that when
                    you raise your arm the sleeve will 'break' over your wrist; the lowest
                    part of the sleeve shouldn't lie on the seam. The way the RR and PP
                    sleeve patterns are cut, the shortest portion of the sleeve is in the
                    inside seam next to the waist. When you raise your arm out in front of
                    you with this type of cut, the break is all wrong and what you get is a
                    twisting sleeve around your lower arm, creating the sensation of binding
                    and dragging, since the weight of the sleeve will actually twist
                    dramatically around your arm away from your body. It is an uncomfortable
                    sensation. I subscribe to Beau Brummel's theory of wearing clothing:
                    make sure it fits perfectly, put them on and then _forget about them_.
                    Clothes should not be annoying, even subtly annoying.

                    There are two really good diagrams I can think of in books right off
                    hand. Holkeboer is not one of them; the houpelande pattern given is
                    almost identical to the flawed one in Hill & Bucknell's Patterns of
                    Fashion, and is wrong. You want Carl Koehler's "History of Costume," (a
                    five-buck Dover paperback!), specifically the sleeve diagram next to the
                    "Woman of Siena," who is wearing exactly this type of sleeve (I'd cite
                    the page, but my Blond Husband has done the book filing again, *sigh*)--
                    or an even better diagram, page 95 of Jean Hunnisett's Period Costume
                    for Stage & Screen, Medieval - 1500." A sleeve cut in this manner will
                    not give one the effect of twisting the sleeve around the forearm at
                    all.

                    I hope the following explanation makes sense: you want to offset the cut
                    of the sleeve cap in such a way so that the sleeve cap makes a
                    laying-down S shape; the rest of the pattern below the sleeve cap
                    remains the same. The seam then falls on the inside arm and the
                    shortest part of the sleeve falls directly on the wrist at rest in front
                    of the body. I used a standard oxford-type-shirt sleeve pattern, split,
                    to form the top of my houp sleeves, since I decided the PP wasn't worth
                    buying way back when I built a houp for my husband.

                    Very bad ascii art, out of proportion:

                    - -
                    / * \ <--- the * is the center top of the sleeve when
                    set-in.
                    \ / \_
                    \___/

                    Hope this helps. When cut in this manner, the sleeve ends up looking
                    exactly like all those totally kewl representations of great flowing
                    sleeves in artwork and sculpture, an effect I think greatly to be
                    desired.

                    ciorstan
                  • Zohra Rawling
                    --On Saturday, December 1, 2001 3:42 AM -0500 Jeanne Harney ... then we will both have gold underdresses ^_^ *snicker* we ll be cute Ysabella
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
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                      --On Saturday, December 1, 2001 3:42 AM -0500 Jeanne Harney
                      <jeanne@...> wrote:

                      > I'm thinking about making a black velvet sideless to go over the same
                      > underdress, but then again, I got this GORGEOUS gold fabric for the
                      > underdress today, and may want to save it for evening too. I'm kind of
                      > embarrassed...I killed polyesters for this fabric, which is something I
                      > never do, but it was what I wanted.


                      then we will both have gold underdresses

                      ^_^

                      *snicker*

                      we'll be cute


                      Ysabella
                    • unclrashid@aol.com
                      ... totally ... has ... it has ... off ... the ... For donut & coxcomb see Cynthias articles on Mens & Womens Stuffed roll hats: http://www.virtue.to/articles/
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
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                        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Jeanne Harney" <jeanne@p...> wrote:
                        > Rashid chimed in with:
                        > >This sounds wonderful! But I hope you won't forget the hat! No
                        > >houppelande like this would be complete without some type of
                        totally
                        > >outrageous hat! I recommend an extra big version of the "donut &
                        > >coxcomb" hat.
                        >
                        > Well, I kind of have to...since I'm the only one in the Barony who
                        has
                        > worn any hat, and now I have to teach them about hats, and I know
                        it has
                        > to be BIG to balance out the BIG dress. I don't think I can pull
                        off
                        > the hat Mistress Cynthia wore...can you send me a pic or a URL for
                        the
                        > donut and coxcomb?

                        For donut & coxcomb see Cynthias articles on Mens & Womens Stuffed
                        roll hats:

                        http://www.virtue.to/articles/

                        Cynthia seperates the men's & women's, but if you look at a lot of
                        pictures, you will find that the women also wore a lot of the same
                        styles as the men. But there were some styles that were for women
                        only, which the men never wore, so the way she has them seperated
                        makes sense from that perspective.

                        Rashid
                      • unclrashid@aol.com
                        ... armscye ... with a ... exactly ... in ... she ... All the stuff I snipped here was an excellent description of the Houppelende sleeve issue! I would like
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
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                          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Ciorstan <ciorstan@m...> wrote:
                          > Anyone have any comments???
                          >
                          > Yes. As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight
                          armscye
                          > that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment even
                          with a
                          > LOT of easing, and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a native
                          > Caidiot, and most Period Patterns drive me deep into Native Dialect,
                          > Your Rad Dude-ette-ness, ohmigawd!). Don't use the sleeve pieces
                          exactly
                          > as given, both PP and the Rocking Horse Farm houp patterns are off
                          in
                          > cut in the sleeve cap area.
                          >
                          > Without a photo, it's hard to describe the proper cut for the sleeve
                          > (Baroness Cynthia's website is down right now and I don't recall if
                          she
                          > gives a diagram..........


                          All the stuff I snipped here was an excellent description of the
                          Houppelende sleeve issue!

                          I would like to add my two cents worth also.... it is confusing
                          enough that sometimes I just make a muslin mockup and cut it with
                          about 12 inches extra length on the sleeve cap end to allow for
                          adjustments. Then I pin fit the sleeve cap making sure the "bell"
                          or "trumpet" portion of the sleeve is oriented correctly. (you have
                          to sit down and use either a fork or pen to make sure the sleeve does
                          not pull at some weird angle) This usually results in the sleeve cap
                          being twisted about 30 degrees from where you would have expected
                          it. This makes a pattern such that you have to cut you left and
                          right sleeves with the pattern flipped over from one to the next.

                          This technique works best with a rather full sleeve. It does not
                          work quite so well with the type of sleeve that is very fitted on the
                          upper arm and then flares out from the elbow.

                          Rashid
                        • Jeanne Harney
                          ... From: ... But here s my question...the view of the sleeve I want to use is...open. The pattern calls it lined floor-length split tube
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 1, 2001
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <unclrashid@...>

                            > All the stuff I snipped here was an excellent description of the
                            > Houppelende sleeve issue!

                            But here's my question...the view of the sleeve I want to use is...open.
                            The pattern calls it "lined floor-length split tube sleeves, and wrist
                            length undersleeves", and they mention that they "cheat" by putting in a
                            fake undersleeve and a fake insert at the neck instead of making a
                            proper underdress, which of course, I'm doing. So...would any of this
                            be relevant?? I keep looking, and I've printed out Mistress Cynthia's
                            entire Houppelande section, but she uses a completely different sleeve
                            construction than I'm planning.

                            > I would like to add my two cents worth also.... it is confusing
                            > enough that sometimes I just make a muslin mockup and cut it with
                            > about 12 inches extra length on the sleeve cap end to allow for
                            > adjustments. Then I pin fit the sleeve cap making sure the "bell"
                            > or "trumpet" portion of the sleeve is oriented correctly. (you have
                            > to sit down and use either a fork or pen to make sure the sleeve does
                            > not pull at some weird angle) This usually results in the sleeve cap
                            > being twisted about 30 degrees from where you would have expected
                            > it. This makes a pattern such that you have to cut you left and
                            > right sleeves with the pattern flipped over from one to the next.

                            Once again, the sleeves never touch my arm from maybe 1 or 2 inches over
                            the actual shoulder...and the underdress is fine. I have 2 from the
                            design I'm using.

                            Also...I found Ron's fabric today. He's gonna be gorgeous. I'm making
                            him a "pseudo-period", or maybe it's period, but I haven't done any
                            research, though he's bought a coat/del/thingie like this before at
                            Pennsic. Basically like an open calf-length del, without the flap that
                            wraps over and hooks diagonally on the front (doesn't tie or close at
                            all) in a black satin brocade with gold dragons on it, trimmed in gold
                            satin at cuffs, collar, and down the front opening, with the same gold
                            satin pants and a black satin knee-length tunic. He likes the look, and
                            if I can get him into ANYTHING besides a small kilt, I feel
                            fortunate!!!

                            Jeanne
                            who has enough trouble getting Ron to play, especially because if he
                            can't wear the small kilt he wants to be a grubby peasant. This is the
                            first time in 4 years he's agreed to ANYTHING resembling nice garb.
                          • Ariane Helou
                            ... Oooooh....that explains it!! When I was working on my big fancy dress last month, I used (among several other references) the Period Patterns Elizabethan.
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 3, 2001
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                              Ciorstan wrote:
                              >As a rule, Period Patterns are drafted with a high, tight armscye
                              >that doesn't necessarily match up to the body of the garment even with a
                              >LOT of easing,

                              Oooooh....that explains it!! When I was working on my big fancy dress last
                              month, I used (among several other references) the Period Patterns
                              Elizabethan. I recycled a perfectly-fitting bodice from an old dress, but
                              cut the sleeve pieces from the pattern; they were significantly smaller
                              than the armscye, and though I got them sewn in nicely, when I tried them
                              on I found that they were vastly too tight, and there were several
                              directions in which I couldn't move my arms! :-( I'm glad to know it's the
                              pattern's fault, not my own incompetence in sewing (well maybe a little of
                              that too...) ;-)

                              >and their directions suck loudly (sorry, I'm a native
                              >Caidiot,

                              LOL!!! I've never heard that before :-) Though I usually reside in the
                              West, my permanent home is in the Barony of the Angels - does that make me
                              a Caidiot too? <g>

                              Vittoria
                              (back to studying, Despina, I promise! your pictures are very cool, by the way)
                            • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                              ... Glad you re studying. *wink* Thanks for the compliment. Smiles, Despina
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 3, 2001
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                                At 09:53 AM 12/3/2001 -0800, you wrote:
                                >Vittoria
                                >(back to studying, Despina, I promise! your pictures are very cool, by
                                >the way)

                                Glad you're studying. *wink* Thanks for the compliment.

                                Smiles,
                                Despina
                              • Guernen Cimarguid
                                don t know why, but I just keep reading the title on this thread as 12th (century) night-dress... maybe I m tired? ;-) Guernen
                                Message 15 of 15 , Dec 3, 2001
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                                  don't know why, but I just keep reading the title on this thread as
                                  12th (century) night-dress...

                                  maybe I'm tired? ;-)

                                  Guernen
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