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A&S help

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  • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
    Alright, they have posted a date for the East Kingdom Northern Lights A&S Pentathalon, so Brynn now starts her sewing maddness. Or more like Darn now I have
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
      Alright, they have posted a date for the East Kingdom Northern Lights
      A&S Pentathalon, so Brynn now starts her sewing maddness. Or more
      like "Darn now I have to document everything"
      Here is the question. Do you folks put your name on your
      documentation?
      The bloody rules don't say one way or the other.
      Last year I did have my name on everything and no one questioned it,
      in fact most people did include their names.
      However later in the year I was in another A&S competition where
      again the rules did not state it, but was critizied for having my
      name on the docs.
      Which do you folks prefer? I can understand not wanting to create
      bias in the judges, however how is one to get thier work out to be
      seen by others if their name is not on it?

      - Brynn the confused.
    • Lisa
      ... it, ... Hmmph - bad form to drop marks when they didn t make it clear if it was preferable to be anonymous. Personally I like to see names on stuff. That
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., s_krasley@r... wrote:
        > <snip>
        > Last year I did have my name on everything and no one questioned
        it,
        > in fact most people did include their names.
        > However later in the year I was in another A&S competition where
        > again the rules did not state it, but was critizied for having my
        > name on the docs.
        > Which do you folks prefer? I can understand not wanting to create
        > bias in the judges, however how is one to get thier work out to be
        > seen by others if their name is not on it?
        >
        > - Brynn the confused.

        Hmmph - bad form to drop marks when they didn't make it clear if it
        was preferable to be anonymous.

        Personally I like to see names on stuff. That way I know who I can go
        and talk to about something interesting.

        Lisa
      • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
        ... Put your name on the backs of the pages of documentation. If someone really wants to know, they ll look at the documentation every which way, including at
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
          At 03:26 PM 11/2/2001 +0000, you wrote:
          I can understand not wanting to create
          bias in the judges, however how is one to get thier work out to be
          seen by others if their name is not on it?

          Put your name on the backs of the pages of documentation.  If someone really wants to know, they'll look at the documentation every which way, including at the back.

          Smiles,
          Despina

        • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
          Me too. I love to talk to people about their work, especially if it s something I ve wanted to try. Or if it s a really nice peice of work I like to let them
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
            Me too. I love to talk to people about their work, especially if it's
            something I've wanted to try. Or if it's a really nice peice of work
            I like to let them know they did a fabulous job.

            - Brynn


            > Hmmph - bad form to drop marks when they didn't make it clear if it
            > was preferable to be anonymous.
            >
            > Personally I like to see names on stuff. That way I know who I can
            go
            > and talk to about something interesting.
            >
            > Lisa
          • rowengr@hotmail.com
            Sentiment on this point seems to vary from year to year, and area to area. Some years ago, anything entered in an A&S in this neck of the woods *had* to be
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
              Sentiment on this point seems to vary from year to year, and area to
              area. Some years ago, anything entered in an A&S in this neck of the
              woods *had* to be "anonymous" - or at least not have one's name on.
              (Although if everyone had seen you wearing that blackworked coif for
              the last six months, it was something of a giveaway.) Then some folk
              began to agitate against "anonymity," in part because performing arts
              competitors could not have it. At this point, things have slid 'round
              so that the preference is not only for the entrant to have their name
              on the documentation, but to linger in the vicinity to answer any
              questions the judges may have (which can be difficult if one wishes to
              attend a class, or has entries in, say, culinary, textile and
              perfoming arts. (Last Kingdom A&S the categories were in different
              rooms.)

              Since there don't seem to be laws about it, you might ask your A&S
              officer what they think the current local custom is. I rather like
              having my name on the documentation myself; that way if someone takes
              a copy (as happens sometimes) at least they know who wrote it. (I
              also usually make some extra copies of documentation, particularly of
              culinary or brewing entries, since I often get asked for it.)

              Rowen



              --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., s_krasley@r... wrote:
              > Alright, they have posted a date for the East Kingdom Northern
              Lights
              > A&S Pentathalon, so Brynn now starts her sewing maddness. Or more
              > like "Darn now I have to document everything"
              > Here is the question. Do you folks put your name on your
              > documentation?
              <snip>
            • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
              ... Ah ha! And once again we hit on differences between kingdoms for A&S stuff. The reason I say to put it on the back is that the forms that we use in the
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                At 03:44 PM 11/2/2001 +0000, you wrote:

                Sentiment on this point seems to vary from year to year, and area to
                area.  Some years ago, anything entered in an A&S in this neck of the
                woods *had* to be "anonymous" - or at least not have one's name on. 
                (Although if everyone had seen you wearing that blackworked coif for
                the last six months, it was something of a giveaway.)  Then some folk
                began to agitate against "anonymity," in part because performing arts
                competitors could not have it.  At this point, things have slid 'round
                so that the preference is not only for the entrant to have their name
                on the documentation, but to linger in the vicinity to answer any
                questions the judges may have (which can be difficult if one wishes to
                attend a class, or has entries in, say, culinary, textile and
                perfoming arts.  (Last Kingdom A&S the categories were in different
                rooms.)

                Since there don't seem to be laws about it, you might ask your A&S
                officer what they think the current local custom is. 

                Ah ha!  And once again we hit on differences between kingdoms for A&S stuff.

                The reason I say to put it on the back is that the forms that we use in the Middle that stay with the entry and describe it, are two sided and one side is folded over and not seen by the judges.  But if the average person were to go past, they could see who did the work by turning over the card.

                I'm telling you, some sort of structure so that people know how to write their documentation and what is expected of them before the competition is a *good* thing.

                Smiles,
                Despina


              • ladymorwenna@yahoo.com
                ... I agree totally. I know we are the People s Republic of the East and no one wants to structure anyone s experience, but it isn t helpful not to give some
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                  > I'm telling you, some sort of structure so that people know how to
                  > write their documentation and what is expected of them before the
                  > competition is a *good* thing.
                  >
                  > Smiles,
                  > Despina

                  I agree totally. I know we are the "People's Republic of the East" and
                  no one wants to structure anyone's experience, but it isn't helpful
                  not to give some sort of guideline to both entrants and judges.

                  I used to do competitive costuming outside the SCA. The big
                  competition (for me) was the Historical Masquerade at Costume Con. I
                  was petrified the first time I entered because everyone told me that
                  the judges were all perfectionists and you had to document everything,
                  but there was no information available how to create documentation. I
                  know several costumers who were scared off and entered the less rigid
                  Science Fiction and Fantasy Masquerade instead.

                  I don't think we necessarily need a kingdom-wide documentation
                  stardard for all A&S competitions, but competition coordinators have a
                  responsibility to provide guidelines to entrants and judges.

                  Abigail/Morwenna
                • wodeford@yahoo.com
                  ... I was just about to comment that I don t enter bardic venues with a bag over my head, when Rowen beat me to the punch. ;- Sin boldly. Bias be damned.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                    --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., rowengr@h... wrote:
                    > Then some folk began to agitate against "anonymity," in part
                    > because performing arts competitors could not have it.
                    I was just about to comment that I don't enter bardic venues with a
                    bag over my head, when Rowen beat me to the punch. ;->

                    "Sin boldly." Bias be damned. The whole POINT of these dog-and-pony-
                    shows is to get people's work seen so the polling orders can award
                    (or withhold) shinies and danglies. The polling orders are made up of
                    fallible human beings (yeah, you over there with the laurel leaves,
                    you just THINK you Know Everything TM)who have their own biases and
                    agendas, regardless of what you do. At least embroidery doesn't have
                    to be "entertaining." (Oh my, did I say that in my outside voice?)

                    > Since there don't seem to be laws about it, you might ask your A&S
                    > officer what they think the current local custom is.

                    For that matter, check with whoever is running Northern Lights and
                    ask whether they want ID on your documentation. They can't penalize
                    you for complying with the competition rules.

                    Jehanne
                  • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
                    It would be very helpful if the coordinators would be more specific in documentation requirements. If I d not had Kass to guide me last year I wouldn t have
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                      It would be very helpful if the coordinators would be more specific
                      in documentation requirements. If I'd not had Kass to guide me last
                      year I wouldn't have had a clue as to how to even begin to document
                      anything. This year I'm draggng one or two newer Scadians along to
                      enter as well. I think I'll drop a note to the Coordinator and ask
                      for specifics to be posted to the event announcement just to help us
                      along.

                      - Brynn

                      > I agree totally. I know we are the "People's Republic of the East"
                      and
                      > no one wants to structure anyone's experience, but it isn't helpful
                      > not to give some sort of guideline to both entrants and judges.
                      >
                      > I used to do competitive costuming outside the SCA. The big
                      > competition (for me) was the Historical Masquerade at Costume Con.
                      I
                      > was petrified the first time I entered because everyone told me
                      that
                      > the judges were all perfectionists and you had to document
                      everything,
                      > but there was no information available how to create documentation.
                      I
                      > know several costumers who were scared off and entered the less
                      rigid
                      > Science Fiction and Fantasy Masquerade instead.
                      >
                      > I don't think we necessarily need a kingdom-wide documentation
                      > stardard for all A&S competitions, but competition coordinators
                      have a
                      > responsibility to provide guidelines to entrants and judges.
                      >
                      > Abigail/Morwenna
                    • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                      ... Kingdom requirements for kingdom A&S competitions eventually trickle down to the smaller competitions and are used as a starting point in many cases. I m
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                        At 04:12 PM 11/2/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                        I don't think we necessarily need a kingdom-wide documentation
                        stardard for all A&S competitions, but competition coordinators have a
                        responsibility to provide guidelines to entrants and judges.

                        Kingdom requirements for kingdom A&S competitions eventually trickle down to the smaller competitions and are used as a starting point in many cases.  I'm not advocating for a full blown system as we have in the Middle, but a little structure goes a long way.

                        Smiles,
                        Despina

                      • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
                        And will we be seeing you, Jehanne, in any of the period performance catagories? Since yes someday I want one of those Shiny, danglies I will put my name on
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                          And will we be seeing you, Jehanne, in any of the period performance
                          catagories?

                          Since yes someday I want one of those "Shiny, danglies" I will put my
                          name on the work, unless told otherwise.
                          I'm not totally motivated my accolades, I'd be doing my needlework
                          madness anyway, but hey a pat on the back now and then doesn't hurt.
                          Plus others now come to me and ask questions and seek help because
                          they have seen my work on display. (BAWhahahaha I drag them over to
                          the authentic, embroidery side)

                          - Brynn


                          > "Sin boldly." Bias be damned. The whole POINT of these dog-and-pony-
                          > shows is to get people's work seen so the polling orders can award
                          > (or withhold) shinies and danglies. The polling orders are made up
                          of
                          > fallible human beings (yeah, you over there with the laurel leaves,
                          > you just THINK you Know Everything TM)who have their own biases and
                          > agendas, regardless of what you do. At least embroidery doesn't
                          have
                          > to be "entertaining." (Oh my, did I say that in my outside voice?)
                          >
                          > > Since there don't seem to be laws about it, you might ask your
                          A&S
                          > > officer what they think the current local custom is.
                          >
                          > For that matter, check with whoever is running Northern Lights and
                          > ask whether they want ID on your documentation. They can't penalize
                          > you for complying with the competition rules.
                          >
                          > Jehanne
                        • rowengr@hotmail.com
                          ... I got stuck judging a non-SCA harp competition a few months ago. Since half the entrants were friends or relatives, I tried judging with my back to the
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., wodeford@y... wrote:
                            > I was just about to comment that I don't enter bardic venues with a
                            > bag over my head, when Rowen beat me to the punch. ;->

                            I got stuck judging a non-SCA harp competition a few months ago.
                            Since half the entrants were friends or relatives, I tried judging
                            with my back to the players. Didn't help a lot - I knew who was who
                            within a phrase or two. (I'd been supposed to enter, and dropped
                            because of some personal stuff, and the woman running the comp glommed
                            onto me because her judge has called in sick. Over the years I've
                            placed everywhere from first to last in that particular comp. Have
                            to play next year, though - judging was a lot harder. ;)

                            > The whole POINT of these dog-and-pony-
                            > shows is to get people's work seen so the polling orders can award
                            > (or withhold) shinies and danglies.

                            I suppose - I always find them useful to motivate me to get that
                            particular project finished. But I have to admit that I've been
                            sufficiently - let's say dissatisfied - with the results in some
                            competitions (not necessarily those in which I was entered) that I'm
                            seriously contemplating giving up competing and directing all my A&S
                            energies to teaching or judging.

                            > The polling orders are made up of
                            > fallible human beings (yeah, you over there with the laurel leaves,
                            > you just THINK you Know Everything TM)who have their own biases and
                            > agendas, regardless of what you do.

                            Er, right. <g> (Did I say I thought I knew everything? Most of you
                            good folk here seem to know a great deal more than I do about any
                            number of things. Ok, I'll take it you didn't mean me specifically)

                            > At least embroidery doesn't have
                            > to be "entertaining." (Oh my, did I say that in my outside voice?)

                            "Ah, an amusing little vintage of stitchery." <g>

                            > For that matter, check with whoever is running Northern Lights and
                            > ask whether they want ID on your documentation. They can't penalize
                            > you for complying with the competition rules.

                            Good idea.

                            Rowen
                          • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                            Hey ROWEN! *SMACK* Welcome back to reality, where we love you and when we speak of such people as Master Knows IT All or Mistress Laurel Smarter Than You,
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                              Hey ROWEN!   *SMACK*  Welcome back to reality, where we love you and when we speak of such people as Master Knows IT All or Mistress Laurel Smarter Than You, we do not speak of anyone on this list - including you. :^P

                              We now return you to your regular list.........

                              Smiles,
                              Despina

                              At 04:43 PM 11/2/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                              > The polling orders are made up of
                              > fallible human beings (yeah, you over there with the laurel leaves,
                              > you just THINK you Know Everything TM)who have their own biases and
                              > agendas, regardless of what you do.

                              Er, right.  <g>   (Did I say I thought I knew everything?  Most of you
                              good folk here seem to know a great deal more than I do about any
                              number of things.  Ok, I'll take it you didn't mean me specifically)
                            • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
                              I understand. Since I hope this time next year to having an A&S competition here in the southern region of the East I m just looking for all the information I
                              Message 14 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                I understand. Since I hope this time next year to having an A&S
                                competition here in the southern region of the East I'm just looking
                                for all the information I can get to make everyone's life easier.
                                Even if it's nothing more then stating Documentation is required with
                                each piece. That Documention should include Name (?) materials, and
                                references/bibliography. Also simply guidelines for the judges will
                                be a must.

                                - Brynn


                                - In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" <aheilvei@u...>
                                wrote:
                                > At 04:12 PM 11/2/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                                > >I don't think we necessarily need a kingdom-wide documentation
                                > >stardard for all A&S competitions, but competition coordinators
                                have a
                                > >responsibility to provide guidelines to entrants and judges.
                                >
                                > Kingdom requirements for kingdom A&S competitions eventually
                                trickle down
                                > to the smaller competitions and are used as a starting point in
                                many
                                > cases. I'm not advocating for a full blown system as we have in
                                the
                                > Middle, but a little structure goes a long way.
                                >
                                > Smiles,
                                > Despina
                              • rowengr@hotmail.com
                                ... when ... Smarter ... Oh good - I d much rather be smacked. (Yes, we all know a few folk who cannot get over themselves, and not all of them are
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" <aheilvei@u...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Hey ROWEN! *SMACK* Welcome back to reality, where we love you and
                                  when
                                  > we speak of such people as Master Knows IT All or Mistress Laurel
                                  Smarter
                                  > Than You, we do not speak of anyone on this list - including you.
                                  :^P
                                  >
                                  > We now return you to your regular list.........
                                  >

                                  Oh good - I'd much rather be smacked. <g> (Yes, we all know a few
                                  folk who cannot get over themselves, and not all of them are bedecked
                                  with medallions either. Poor things, they can't be having a very good
                                  time.)

                                  Oh, hey, btw - the feathers are on their way.

                                  Rowen
                                • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
                                  ... a bag over my head, when Rowen beat me to the punch. ;- Would that make you the unknown Bard if you did have a bag on your head? ... Don t you just love a
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                    > > I was just about to comment that I don't enter bardic venues with
                                    a bag over my head, when Rowen beat me to the punch. ;->

                                    Would that make you the unknown Bard if you did have a bag on your
                                    head?


                                    >Have to play next year, though - judging was a lot harder. ;)


                                    Don't you just love a challenge?


                                    > > The whole POINT of these dog-and-pony-
                                    > > shows is to get people's work seen so the polling orders can
                                    award
                                    > > (or withhold) shinies and danglies.
                                    >
                                    > I suppose - I always find them useful to motivate me to get that
                                    > particular project finished. But I have to admit that I've been
                                    > sufficiently - let's say dissatisfied - with the results in some
                                    > competitions (not necessarily those in which I was entered) that
                                    I'm
                                    > seriously contemplating giving up competing and directing all my
                                    A&S
                                    > energies to teaching or judging.


                                    But YOU WILL BE TEACHING OR JUDGING which is just as important as
                                    entering some so often badly needed. I'm sure even if you knew every
                                    person you had to judge you'd be fair in the scores.
                                    Oh to have judges that don't have personal adgendas.....


                                    > Er, right. <g> (Did I say I thought I knew everything? Most of
                                    you
                                    > good folk here seem to know a great deal more than I do about any
                                    > number of things. Ok, I'll take it you didn't mean me specifically)

                                    We are always learning, when we stop doing that "We DIE".

                                    - Brynn , who doesn't know everything, but her kids think she does. ;)
                                  • wodeford@yahoo.com
                                    ... Oh, sticky one. I m sure you did the best you could to judge fairly. ... I wouldn t compete at all (I think arts as horse race is silly), except that it s
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., rowengr@h... wrote:
                                      > I got stuck judging a non-SCA harp competition a few months ago.
                                      > Since half the entrants were friends or relatives, I tried judging
                                      > with my back to the players. Didn't help a lot - I knew who was
                                      > who within a phrase or two. (I'd been supposed to enter, and
                                      > dropped because of some personal stuff, and the woman running the
                                      > comp glommed onto me because her judge has called in sick. Over
                                      > the years I've placed everywhere from first to last in that
                                      > particular comp. Have to play next year, though - judging was a
                                      > lot harder. ;)
                                      Oh, sticky one. I'm sure you did the best you could to judge fairly.
                                      >
                                      > I suppose - I always find them useful to motivate me to get that
                                      > particular project finished. But I have to admit that I've been
                                      > sufficiently - let's say dissatisfied - with the results in some
                                      > competitions (not necessarily those in which I was entered) that
                                      > I'm seriously contemplating giving up competing and directing all
                                      > my A&S energies to teaching or judging.
                                      I wouldn't compete at all (I think arts as horse race is silly),
                                      except that it's frequently the only venue at the events in my area
                                      for performers to do their thing. (Yes, Gaius, I know: camping every
                                      weekend, bardic circles up the wazoo, pizza with pineapple, dogs and
                                      cats living together....)

                                      > Er, right. <g> (Did I say I thought I knew everything? Most of
                                      > you good folk here seem to know a great deal more than I do about
                                      > any number of things. Ok, I'll take it you didn't mean me
                                      > specifically)
                                      Goodness, no. I don't think it includes any of the peers on this
                                      list, actually, who are a good bunch. However, that type exists.

                                      > "Ah, an amusing little vintage of stitchery." <g>
                                      "I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me."

                                      Jehanne
                                    • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                                      ... reminds me of a song I heard and couldn t turn off I was laughing so hard, it s by a country singer named Toby Kieth, called I wanna talk about me and
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                        At 05:04 PM 11/2/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                                        Oh good - I'd much rather be smacked.  <g>   (Yes, we all know a few
                                        folk who cannot get over themselves, and not all of them are bedecked
                                        with medallions either.  Poor things, they can't be having a very good
                                        time.)

                                        reminds me of a song I heard and couldn't turn off I was laughing so hard, it's by a country singer named Toby Kieth, called 'I wanna talk about me" and I'm just looking for the right person to sing it to under my breath..........


                                        We talk about your work, how your boss is a jerk
                                        We talk about your church and your head when it hurts
                                        We talk about the troubles you've been havin' with your brother
                                        'Bout your daddy and your mother and your crazy ex-lover
                                        We talk about your friends and the places that you've been
                                        We talk about your skin and the dimples on your chin
                                        The polish on your toes and a run in your hose
                                        And God knows we're gonna talk about your clothes
                                        You know talkin' about you makes me smile
                                        But every once in a while

                                        Chorus

                                        I wanna talk about me, (I) wanna talk about I
                                        (I) wanna talk about number one, ol' my me my
                                        What I think, what I like, what I know, what I want, what I see
                                        (How) I like talkin' about you you you you usually
                                        But occasionally
                                        I wanna talk about me (me me me me me me)
                                        I wanna talk about me

                                        2nd Verse

                                        We talk about your dreams, and we talk about your schemes
                                        Your high school team and your moisturizer cream
                                        We talk about your Nana up in Muncie, Indiana
                                        We talk about your Grandma down in Alabama
                                        We talk about your guys of every shape and size
                                        The ones that you despise and the ones you idolize
                                        We talk about your heart, 'bout your brains and your smarts
                                        About your medical charts and
                                        when you start
                                        You know talkin' about you makes me grin
                                        But every now and then

                                        (Repeat Chorus)

                                        Bridge

                                        I wanna talk about me (me me me me me)
                                        I wanna talk about me (me me me me me)
                                        You you you you you you you you you you you you you
                                        I wanna talk about me

                                        (Repeat Chorus)

                                        I wanna talk about me (me me me me me)
                                        No, me




                                        Oh, hey, btw - the feathers are on their way. 

                                        ooooooooo feathers......... I am so beside myself with happiness!

                                        Smiles,
                                        Despina

                                      • wodeford@yahoo.com
                                        ... In VERMONT? In MARCH? Are you mad? I m hoping to do something at 100 Minutes War though. Jehanne, who can t think that far in advance
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., s_krasley@r... wrote:
                                          > And will we be seeing you, Jehanne, in any of the period
                                          > performance catagories?

                                          In VERMONT? In MARCH? Are you mad?

                                          I'm hoping to do something at 100 Minutes War though.

                                          Jehanne, who can't think that far in advance
                                        • rowengr@hotmail.com
                                          ... with ... Hmm, now I m comtemplating a bag-on-head performance of some kind... Oh, wanted to tell you folk about a prop I used recently. I was
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., s_krasley@r... wrote:
                                            > > > I was just about to comment that I don't enter bardic venues
                                            with
                                            > a bag over my head, when Rowen beat me to the punch. ;->
                                            >
                                            > Would that make you the unknown Bard if you did have a bag on your
                                            > head?

                                            Hmm, now I'm comtemplating a bag-on-head performance of some kind...
                                            <g>

                                            Oh, wanted to tell you folk about a "prop" I used recently. I was
                                            singing a piece I wrote (tune and structure in a particular Gaelic
                                            style, but in English) which is "Oran nan Bean-Nighe" or the song
                                            (supposedly) sung by the Washer-at-the-Ford. (folkloric explantion
                                            available upon request) At any rate, I was finished up my
                                            introduction, and mentioning that the Washer is usually seen as a
                                            woman wearing a ragged green gown (I was wearing a new green outfit,)
                                            with her long grey hair streaming about her, whereon I pulled out the
                                            single wooden pin that was holding up my hair, and the silvery-grey
                                            stuff dropped down to my waist.... I heard one slightly uneasy
                                            "urrr" from someone in the audience, and was later told by someone
                                            else "nice prop." <g>


                                            > > seriously contemplating giving up competing and directing all my
                                            > A&S
                                            > > energies to teaching or judging.
                                            >
                                            > But YOU WILL BE TEACHING OR JUDGING which is just as important as
                                            > entering some so often badly needed. I'm sure even if you knew every
                                            > person you had to judge you'd be fair in the scores.
                                            > Oh to have judges that don't have personal adgendas.....

                                            Well, of course I have agendas & biases, just like everyone does - I
                                            just try not to let them be deciding factors when I'm judging.

                                            Rowen
                                          • Lisa
                                            ... outfit,) ... the ... And for those that haven t met her - Rowan has V nice hair! When I grow up I want it Lisa
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                              --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., rowengr@h... wrote:

                                              > Oh, wanted to tell you folk about a "prop" I used recently. I was
                                              > singing a piece I wrote (tune and structure in a particular Gaelic
                                              > style, but in English) which is "Oran nan Bean-Nighe" or the song
                                              > (supposedly) sung by the Washer-at-the-Ford. (folkloric explantion
                                              > available upon request) At any rate, I was finished up my
                                              > introduction, and mentioning that the Washer is usually seen as a
                                              > woman wearing a ragged green gown (I was wearing a new green
                                              outfit,)
                                              > with her long grey hair streaming about her, whereon I pulled out
                                              the
                                              > single wooden pin that was holding up my hair, and the silvery-grey
                                              > stuff dropped down to my waist.... I heard one slightly uneasy
                                              > "urrr" from someone in the audience, and was later told by someone
                                              > else "nice prop." <g>
                                              >

                                              <G> And for those that haven't met her - Rowan has V nice hair!

                                              When I grow up I want it <VBG>

                                              Lisa
                                            • rowengr@hotmail.com
                                              ... Why, thank you (blush). (Lisa has lovely dark red hair - very enviable. :) Rowen
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                                --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Lisa" <skyecat@h...> wrote:
                                                > <G> And for those that haven't met her - Rowan has V nice hair!
                                                >
                                                > When I grow up I want it <VBG>


                                                Why, thank you (blush). (Lisa has lovely dark red hair - very
                                                enviable. :)

                                                Rowen
                                              • Ariane Helou
                                                ... I m curious...who s Washer-at-the-Ford? ... Wow, cool! :-) Vittoria
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                                  Rowen wrote:
                                                  >Oh, wanted to tell you folk about a "prop" I used recently. I was
                                                  >singing a piece I wrote (tune and structure in a particular Gaelic
                                                  >style, but in English) which is "Oran nan Bean-Nighe" or the song
                                                  >(supposedly) sung by the Washer-at-the-Ford. (folkloric explantion
                                                  >available upon request)

                                                  I'm curious...who's Washer-at-the-Ford?

                                                  >At any rate, I was finished up my
                                                  >introduction, and mentioning that the Washer is usually seen as a
                                                  >woman wearing a ragged green gown (I was wearing a new green outfit,)
                                                  >with her long grey hair streaming about her, whereon I pulled out the
                                                  >single wooden pin that was holding up my hair, and the silvery-grey
                                                  >stuff dropped down to my waist.... I heard one slightly uneasy
                                                  >"urrr" from someone in the audience, and was later told by someone
                                                  >else "nice prop." <g>

                                                  Wow, cool! :-)

                                                  Vittoria
                                                • rowengr@hotmail.com
                                                  ... Ok, insert folkloric explanation.... Here s a chunk from the documentation for the song. The Bean-Nighe, or Washer at the Ford, is mentioned in a number
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Ariane Helou <ahelou@u...> wrote:
                                                    > > "Oran nan Bean-Nighe" or the song
                                                    > >(supposedly) sung by the Washer-at-the-Ford. (folkloric explantion
                                                    > >available upon request)
                                                    >
                                                    > I'm curious...who's Washer-at-the-Ford?

                                                    Ok, insert folkloric explanation.... Here's a chunk from the
                                                    documentation for the song.

                                                    "The Bean-Nighe, or Washer at the Ford, is mentioned in a number of
                                                    early Gaelic sources; the earliest written reference occurs in an 8th
                                                    century version of Aided Con Chulainn, ('The Death of Cu Chulainn.')
                                                    She is referred to in a 9th century Irish manuscript, Togail Bruidne
                                                    Da Choca, ('The Destruction of Da Choca') as well as the 13th century
                                                    Annals of Lough Ce, where she appears as an aspect of Badb, an early
                                                    Irish war goddess.

                                                    She appears as a woman, usually old (she is often termed the
                                                    Cailleach, or Hag,) with long grey hair streaming about her, often
                                                    dressed in a ragged green gown, and washing a shirt or shirts at the
                                                    ford of a stream. She was often heard wailing and lamenting; some
                                                    references to her mention only the sound of a woman's voice sobbing by
                                                    the water. The sight of her is a warning of death or disaster,
                                                    sometimes to the seer, at other times to someone close to them. It was
                                                    considered particularly ill-omened to encounter her on the way to a
                                                    battle, and farther ill luck to look directly at her face. It may be
                                                    noted that the Scots Gaelic word for shirt, leine, can also be used in
                                                    a literary context to mean "shroud."

                                                    The bean-nighe (literally, "washing-woman") is considered the
                                                    precursor of the slightly later bean-sidhe, (lit. "fairy-woman") or
                                                    banshee. Even in modern times, the banshee has been referred to in
                                                    Ireland as "the washerwoman." The earlier tradition, of the death
                                                    warning in the form of a woman mourning and lamenting while washing
                                                    shirts at the ford of a stream, was preserved to a greater extent in
                                                    the folklore of Western Scotland."

                                                    She goes by a lot of other names, too - Ludaig, Glasrig, Green or Grey
                                                    Lady (and so on.) There are a few instances in Gaelic folklore of
                                                    humans who have contrived to trick or bargain with her, or otherwise
                                                    win her favor.

                                                    Rowen

                                                    (who has *tons* of info on Scottish folklore)
                                                  • rowengr@hotmail.com
                                                    ... washing ... Yep - that s one of the most comman versions. Sometimes it s sand or seaweed if the doomed individual is going to drown. Almost always seems
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Zohra Rawling <zisaac@f...> wrote:
                                                      > --On Friday, November 2, 2001 6:34 PM +0000 rowengr@h... wrote:
                                                      > > The earlier tradition, of the death
                                                      > > warning in the form of a woman mourning and lamenting while
                                                      washing
                                                      > > shirts at the ford of a stream,
                                                      >
                                                      > I was always told she was washing the blood out of clothing as well.
                                                      > Does that sound familiar to you?

                                                      Yep - that's one of the most comman versions. Sometimes it's sand or
                                                      seaweed if the doomed individual is going to drown. Almost always
                                                      seems to be shirts. I haven't tried codifying exactly what she's
                                                      washing out for whom, but it would be an interesting study.

                                                      Rowen
                                                    • wodeford@yahoo.com
                                                      ... What else would she be washing? If I recall correctly, the Irish and Scots commonly wore some sort of leine (shirt) as their basic garment, right? Great
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., rowengr@h... wrote:

                                                        > Almost always seems to be shirts. I haven't tried codifying
                                                        > exactly what she's washing out for whom, but it would be an
                                                        > interesting study.

                                                        What else would she be washing? If I recall correctly, the Irish and
                                                        Scots commonly wore some sort of leine (shirt) as their basic
                                                        garment, right?

                                                        Great story, by the way!

                                                        Jehanne
                                                      • Zohra Rawling
                                                        ... I was always told she was washing the blood out of clothing as well. Does that sound familiar to you? Ysabella
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                                          --On Friday, November 2, 2001 6:34 PM +0000 rowengr@... wrote:

                                                          > The earlier tradition, of the death
                                                          > warning in the form of a woman mourning and lamenting while washing
                                                          > shirts at the ford of a stream, was preserved to a greater extent in
                                                          > the folklore of Western Scotland."



                                                          I was always told she was washing the blood out of clothing as well.
                                                          Does that sound familiar to you?

                                                          Ysabella
                                                        • Zohra Rawling
                                                          ... Oh that is interesting about the symbolism of what fate the seer will find. I hadn t heard about the seaweed or sand. Very interesting! As for what she may
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                                            > Yep - that's one of the most comman versions. Sometimes it's sand or
                                                            > seaweed if the doomed individual is going to drown. Almost always
                                                            > seems to be shirts. I haven't tried codifying exactly what she's
                                                            > washing out for whom, but it would be an interesting study.
                                                            >


                                                            Oh that is interesting about the symbolism of what fate the seer will find.
                                                            I hadn't heard about the seaweed or sand.
                                                            Very interesting!

                                                            As for what she may be washing, I have just heard shirts, tunics...funny
                                                            never seem to be pants.hmmm

                                                            But those can just be lazy translations.
                                                            LOL!


                                                            Ysabella
                                                          • Danielle Nunn-Weinberg
                                                            So, you re saying you meant me instead? : ) Cheers, Gwendoline (who *originally* took it as a non-specific comment)
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Nov 2, 2001
                                                              So, you're saying you meant me instead? : )

                                                              Cheers,
                                                              Gwendoline (who *originally* took it as a non-specific comment)

                                                              At 10:49 AM 11/2/2001 -0600, you wrote:
                                                              >Hey ROWEN! *SMACK* Welcome back to reality, where we love you and when
                                                              >we speak of such people as Master Knows IT All or Mistress Laurel Smarter
                                                              >Than You, we do not speak of anyone on this list - including you. :^P
                                                              >
                                                              >We now return you to your regular list.........
                                                              >
                                                              >Smiles,
                                                              >Despina
                                                              >
                                                              >At 04:43 PM 11/2/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                                                              >> > The polling orders are made up of
                                                              >> > fallible human beings (yeah, you over there with the laurel leaves,
                                                              >> > you just THINK you Know Everything TM)who have their own biases and
                                                              >> > agendas, regardless of what you do.
                                                              >>
                                                              >>Er, right. <g> (Did I say I thought I knew everything? Most of you
                                                              >>good folk here seem to know a great deal more than I do about any
                                                              >>number of things. Ok, I'll take it you didn't mean me specifically)
                                                            • Lisa
                                                              ... Wmy thank you, Rowan . Pssst. Don t tell anyone, but it s not real! My natural colour is mouse. At least I think it is. It s at least ten years since
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Nov 5, 2001
                                                                --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., rowengr@h... wrote:

                                                                > Why, thank you (blush). (Lisa has lovely dark red hair - very
                                                                > enviable. :)
                                                                >
                                                                > Rowen

                                                                Wmy thank you, Rowan <G>. Pssst. Don't tell anyone, but it's not real!

                                                                My natural colour is mouse. At least I think it is. It's at least ten
                                                                years since I've seen it. <G>

                                                                Lisa
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