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Theology help

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  • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
    Can anyone of you theology students help me out. I m looking for a copy of a bible, of course it has to be one that is older then the King James version. What
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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      Can anyone of you theology students help me out.
      I'm looking for a copy of a bible, of course it has to be
      one that is older then the King James version.
      What I'm saying is what is the oldest version of the Bible
      available? Either on the Web or for sale.
      I am compairing passages from one Bible to another, looking to
      see how much the interpretation has changed the meaning of things.
      Believe this is not my usual course of study so any help or direction
      is greatly appreciated.

      - Brynn
    • L Joseph
      ... Latin, Greek, Hebrew or English? Don t mean to scare you off, Brynn, but this question is even more complicated than you might think. Jehanne ===== I do
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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        --- s_krasley@... wrote:
        > Can anyone of you theology students help me out.
        > I'm looking for a copy of a bible, of course it has
        > to be
        > one that is older then the King James version.
        > What I'm saying is what is the oldest version of the
        > Bible
        > available? Either on the Web or for sale.

        Latin, Greek, Hebrew or English? Don't mean to scare
        you off, Brynn, but this question is even more
        complicated than you might think.

        Jehanne

        =====
        "I do but sing because I must, And pipe but as the linnets sing."
        Alfred, Lord Tennyson, "In Memoriam."

        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
        http://phone.yahoo.com
      • Cynthia Virtue
        There s a good chance that your question is answered in some detail at one of my favorite comparitive-religion sites: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ ... --
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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          There's a good chance that your question is answered in some detail at
          one of my favorite comparitive-religion sites:

          http://www.religioustolerance.org/


          s_krasley@... wrote:
          > What I'm saying is what is the oldest version of the Bible
          > available? Either on the Web or for sale.

          --
          Cynthia Virtue and/or
          Cynthia du Pré Argent

          Soon it will be October Fool's Day, the seaonally-adjusted "April Fool's
          Day" for the Southern Hemisphere.
        • Jeff Gedney
          ... Dont forget Aramaic, my dear. One must not forget the language actually spoken by the apostles. Yep, complicated. I think that a lot of stuff can be found
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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            >
            > Latin, Greek, Hebrew or English? Don't mean to scare
            > you off, Brynn, but this question is even more
            > complicated than you might think.
            >
            > Jehanne
            Dont forget Aramaic, my dear.
            One must not forget the language actually spoken by the apostles.

            Yep, complicated.

            I think that a lot of stuff can be found or got to from http://www.bible.org
            I am looking myself for a "breeches" bible, which a 1580's English "Neopuritan" would have carried.
            I have found them but they are rather expensive.

            Elias Gedney
            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
            Studium doscendi volutate quae cogi non potest constat.
            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
          • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
            Aramaic would be best if it s been translated to English. No...I would need it written in English since the only other languge I can read is French. Thanks,
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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              Aramaic would be best if it's been translated to English.
              No...I would need it written in English since the only other languge
              I can read is French.

              Thanks, Cynthia I will give the site you suggested a try.

              - Brynn

              --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Jeff Gedney <gedney1@i...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Latin, Greek, Hebrew or English? Don't mean to scare
              > > you off, Brynn, but this question is even more
              > > complicated than you might think.
              > >
              > > Jehanne
              > Dont forget Aramaic, my dear.
              > One must not forget the language actually spoken by the apostles.
              >
              > Yep, complicated.
              >
              > I think that a lot of stuff can be found or got to from
              http://www.bible.org
              > I am looking myself for a "breeches" bible, which a 1580's English
              "Neopuritan" would have carried.
              > I have found them but they are rather expensive.
              >
              > Elias Gedney
              > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
              > Studium doscendi volutate quae cogi non potest constat.
              > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
            • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
              ... The Leningrad Codex is the book for you! It was recently produced in a facsimile copy - I worked for one of the major editors while the project was
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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                At 07:16 PM 9/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                Aramaic would be best if it's been translated to English.
                No...I would need it written in English since the only other languge
                I can read is French.

                The Leningrad Codex is the book for you! 

                It was recently produced in a facsimile copy - I worked for one of the major editors while the project was ongoing. (this copy is not cheap, at publication it was in the three number before the decimal point range.)  It was written around 980-1010 C.E., probably in Cairo and most likely copied from another text.   There are other fragments and pieces around that are older, but this is the oldest surviving complete book. It is written in the Masoretic text and it is used today as the basis (as well as a few other fragmentary texts) for most modernly printed Hebrew bibles.

                Hope this helps,
                Despina

                There is more to life than increasing its speed.
                --Gandhi

              • Jeff Gedney
                ... You will not find many english translations that go any earlier than the Reformation. One of the earliest is the Geneva bible if 1560. that is the one that
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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                  On Friday, September 28, 2001 3:26 PM, Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil [SMTP:aheilvei@...] wrote:
                  > At 07:16 PM 9/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                  > >Aramaic would be best if it's been translated to English.
                  > >No...I would need it written in English since the only other languge
                  > >I can read is French.

                  You will not find many english translations that go any earlier than the Reformation.
                  One of the earliest is the Geneva bible if 1560. that is the one that I got Elias instead of Elijah from

                  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1583290001

                  Here is an online and free text of the 1599 edition of the Geneva bible:
                  http://bible.christiansunite.com/genindex.shtml

                  you might find more here, too:
                  http://bible.crosswalk.com/

                  Hope this helps

                  Elias Gedney
                  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                  Studium doscendi volutate quae cogi non potest constat.
                  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... Heck, that s not hard. One of the advantages of being Eastern Orthodox is that we get to rely on Greek (first generational) texts and translations without
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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                    s_krasley@... wrote:

                    > Can anyone of you theology students help me out.
                    > I'm looking for a copy of a bible, of course it has to be
                    > one that is older then the King James version.
                    > What I'm saying is what is the oldest version of the Bible
                    > available? Either on the Web or for sale.
                    > I am compairing passages from one Bible to another, looking to
                    > see how much the interpretation has changed the meaning of things.
                    > Believe this is not my usual course of study so any help or direction
                    > is greatly appreciated.

                    Heck, that's not hard. One of the advantages of being Eastern Orthodox is
                    that we get to rely on Greek (first generational) texts and translations
                    without having to weed through one language piggybacked on another's
                    translation...

                    Among other books I have here is a four volume set on the Gospels that
                    interlinearly cites every extant variant on early Greek texts ( dozens of
                    sources).

                    What specifically are you looking for?

                    http://mdavies.for.ilstu.edu/bible/ is useful perhaps for online playing.

                    Effingham
                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... Something I forgot -- you also have to know the *source* of the translations. Certain modern habits, like inclusive editing has destroyed many of the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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                      s_krasley@... wrote:

                      >
                      > I am compairing passages from one Bible to another, looking to
                      > see how much the interpretation has changed the meaning of things.
                      > Believe this is not my usual course of study so any help or direction
                      > is greatly appreciated.
                      >

                      Something I forgot -- you also have to know the *source* of the
                      translations. Certain modern habits, like "inclusive" editing has destroyed
                      many of the meanings of texts as they'd been taught for millennia.

                      First Psalm begins, "Blessed is the man who walks not in the council of the
                      ungodly..." and many new translations say such things as "Blessed are
                      they...", oblivious to the fact that for 2,000 years the Church has taught
                      that that is a prophetic text and the "Man" referred to is specific --
                      Christ -- not any generic man.


                      Effingham
                      Former seminarian. Can ya tell? <G>
                    • L Joseph
                      ... In other words, Good News For Modern Man is RIGHT OUT. Re Elias previous post on period English bibles, the Boston Camerata s Renaissance Christmas
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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                        --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
                        > Something I forgot -- you also have to know the
                        > *source* of the
                        > translations. Certain modern habits, like
                        > "inclusive" editing has destroyed
                        > many of the meanings of texts as they'd been taught
                        > for millennia.

                        In other words, "Good News For Modern Man" is RIGHT
                        OUT.

                        Re Elias' previous post on period English bibles, the
                        Boston Camerata's "Renaissance Christmas" includes
                        readings of the Gospel in what sounds like Middle
                        English - I'll see if I can dig it out when I get home
                        and I'll let you know what source it's from. I think
                        it may predate the Geneva, but can't remember for
                        certain.
                        (And a "Doh!" for omitting Aramaic! I've been
                        struggling at work with laryngitis all day and can
                        only attribute this to a case of cerebral flatulence.)


                        Jehanne

                        =====
                        "I do but sing because I must, And pipe but as the linnets sing."
                        Alfred, Lord Tennyson, "In Memoriam."

                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
                        http://phone.yahoo.com
                      • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
                        Yes That is what I m looking for. Thanks. Now will have to check out Library loan. _ Brynn ... languge ... the ... cheap, at ... range.) It ... copied ...
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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                          Yes That is what I'm looking for. Thanks.
                          Now will have to check out Library loan.

                          _ Brynn

                          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" <aheilvei@u...>
                          wrote:
                          > At 07:16 PM 9/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                          > >Aramaic would be best if it's been translated to English.
                          > >No...I would need it written in English since the only other
                          languge
                          > >I can read is French.
                          >
                          > The Leningrad Codex is the book for you!
                          >
                          > It was recently produced in a facsimile copy - I worked for one of
                          the
                          > major editors while the project was ongoing. (this copy is not
                          cheap, at
                          > publication it was in the three number before the decimal point
                          range.) It
                          > was written around 980-1010 C.E., probably in Cairo and most likely
                          copied
                          > from another text. There are other fragments and pieces around
                          that are
                          > older, but this is the oldest surviving complete book. It is
                          written in the
                          > Masoretic text and it is used today as the basis (as well as a few
                          other
                          > fragmentary texts) for most modernly printed Hebrew bibles.
                          >
                          > Hope this helps,
                          > Despina
                          >
                          > ----------
                          > There is more to life than increasing its speed.
                          > --Gandhi
                        • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
                          You folks are all just wonderful, So many sources to look at. Thank-you. As I hit more specfic passages I may again ask your help. I am arguing with my husband
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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                            You folks are all just wonderful, So many sources to look at.
                            Thank-you.
                            As I hit more specfic passages I may again ask your help.
                            I am arguing with my husband and several others that translations
                            have been lost and or changed.
                            I was hoping to site several different texts, using the same passage
                            to prove my point. One in the group is a hard line Baptist that
                            thinks "HIS" version of the bible is the only correct one.
                            I have to find out which one he is using to make a complete
                            comparison but I do know it's one of the more modern versions, like
                            "Good News for Modern Man"
                            Some day I'll learn to keep my mouth shut when they start to argue
                            religion. Or worse they argue Creation vs Evolution.

                            - Brynn

                            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@i...> wrote:
                            > s_krasley@r... wrote:
                            >
                            > > Can anyone of you theology students help me out.
                            > > I'm looking for a copy of a bible, of course it has to be
                            > > one that is older then the King James version.
                            > > What I'm saying is what is the oldest version of the Bible
                            > > available? Either on the Web or for sale.
                            > > I am compairing passages from one Bible to another, looking to
                            > > see how much the interpretation has changed the meaning of things.
                            > > Believe this is not my usual course of study so any help or
                            direction
                            > > is greatly appreciated.
                            >
                            > Heck, that's not hard. One of the advantages of being Eastern
                            Orthodox is
                            > that we get to rely on Greek (first generational) texts and
                            translations
                            > without having to weed through one language piggybacked on another's
                            > translation...
                            >
                            > Among other books I have here is a four volume set on the Gospels
                            that
                            > interlinearly cites every extant variant on early Greek texts (
                            dozens of
                            > sources).
                            >
                            > What specifically are you looking for?
                            >
                            > http://mdavies.for.ilstu.edu/bible/ is useful perhaps for online
                            playing.
                            >
                            > Effingham
                          • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                            ... OOPS. I m not sure if they put a translation in with the facsimile. Sorry about that. Something you can do is to get a copy of the Leningrad Codex and
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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                              At 08:22 PM 9/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                              Yes That is what I'm looking for.  Thanks.
                              Now will have to check out Library loan.

                              OOPS.  I'm not sure if they put a translation in with the facsimile.  Sorry about that.  Something you can do is to get a copy of the Leningrad Codex and compare it with something such as, say the Jerusalem Bible for the writing to see how similar it is and go with the translation there.  Or, you could get a Brown, Driver, and Briggs English Hebrew Lexicon as well as the companion book (can't remember the title but it's large and the cover is yellow paperback).  The second book lists each word in the Bible and it's meaning, so you can kind of do your own translation checking again against the Leningrad Codex, but it's not foolproof.

                              Smiles,
                              Despina
                            • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
                              Understood. I will compare them all. What Language is the Leningrad Codex in and the Jerusalem Bible? Just to be sure, because sometimes I m so dense. _ Brynn
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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                                Understood. I will compare them all.
                                What Language is the Leningrad Codex in and the Jerusalem Bible?
                                Just to be sure, because sometimes I'm so dense.

                                _ Brynn

                                --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" <aheilvei@u...>
                                wrote:
                                > At 08:22 PM 9/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                                > >Yes That is what I'm looking for. Thanks.
                                > >Now will have to check out Library loan.
                                >
                                > OOPS. I'm not sure if they put a translation in with the
                                facsimile. Sorry
                                > about that. Something you can do is to get a copy of the Leningrad
                                Codex
                                > and compare it with something such as, say the Jerusalem Bible for
                                the
                                > writing to see how similar it is and go with the translation
                                there. Or,
                                > you could get a Brown, Driver, and Briggs English Hebrew Lexicon as
                                well as
                                > the companion book (can't remember the title but it's large and the
                                cover
                                > is yellow paperback). The second book lists each word in the Bible
                                and
                                > it's meaning, so you can kind of do your own translation checking
                                again
                                > against the Leningrad Codex, but it's not foolproof.
                                >
                                > Smiles,
                                > Despina
                              • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
                                Effingham you are evil...I like you. - Brynn ... same OT ... Esdras,
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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                                  Effingham you are evil...I like you.

                                  - Brynn


                                  >
                                  > Ask him, if you want to see his head explode, if his Bible has the
                                  same OT
                                  > that Jesus and the Apostles quoted from, and if not, WHY not...
                                  >
                                  > (Hint: 95% chance it isn't, unless it contains Tobit, Sirach,
                                  Esdras,
                                  > Maccabees....)
                                  >
                                  > Effingham
                                • Anthony J. Bryant
                                  ... Ask him, if you want to see his head explode, if his Bible has the same OT that Jesus and the Apostles quoted from, and if not, WHY not... (Hint: 95%
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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                                    s_krasley@... wrote:

                                    > You folks are all just wonderful, So many sources to look at.
                                    > Thank-you.
                                    > As I hit more specfic passages I may again ask your help.
                                    > I am arguing with my husband and several others that translations
                                    > have been lost and or changed.
                                    > I was hoping to site several different texts, using the same passage
                                    > to prove my point. One in the group is a hard line Baptist that
                                    > thinks "HIS" version of the bible is the only correct one.

                                    Ask him, if you want to see his head explode, if his Bible has the same OT
                                    that Jesus and the Apostles quoted from, and if not, WHY not...

                                    (Hint: 95% chance it isn't, unless it contains Tobit, Sirach, Esdras,
                                    Maccabees....)

                                    Effingham
                                  • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                                    ... You re not dense, you just don t know the answer - totally different things. Leningrad Codex and Jerusalem Bible are both in Hebrew. As I said before,
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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                                      At 08:41 PM 9/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                                      Understood. I will compare them all.
                                      What Language is the Leningrad Codex in and the Jerusalem Bible?
                                      Just to be sure, because sometimes I'm so dense.

                                      You're not dense, you just don't know the answer - totally different things.

                                      Leningrad Codex and Jerusalem Bible are both in Hebrew.  As I said before, there are fragments (some in Aramaic - still the legal language of the Jewish people - and some in Hebrew) that are older than the Leningrad Codex, but no complete manuscript of the bible.  The Jerusalem Bible is a modern bible put out with Hebrew on one page and English translation on the facing page.  I'll try to remember to look at the BDB yellow book and send you the title and ISBN.  It will probably be your most helpful tool in this search.

                                      Smiles and good weekend,
                                      Despina

                                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                                      ... Thank you... Then my work here is done! Effingham Up, up... and awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 28, 2001
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                                        s_krasley@... wrote:

                                        > Effingham you are evil...I like you.
                                        >

                                        Thank you...

                                        <superman pose> Then my work here is done! </superman pose>


                                        Effingham

                                        Up, up... and awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
                                      • Christina_Lemke@hotmail.com
                                        Hi Brynn, when you are looking at older translations (into Middle English, Early Modern English, Early Modern German etc.) you must be aware that the meaning
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Oct 1, 2001
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                                          Hi Brynn,

                                          when you are looking at older translations (into Middle English,
                                          Early Modern English, Early Modern German etc.) you must be aware
                                          that the meaning of the words in the target language may have changed
                                          over the centuries. Don't fall into the "New Criticism trap"!

                                          Is there a specific passage you are looking at, or whose meaning you
                                          want to investigate? Then your best starting point would be the
                                          original text (Hebrew or Greek) compared in the oldest extant
                                          manuscripts, plus an extensively annotated translation by an
                                          excellent modern translator. Then compare with the Bishop's Bible,
                                          Geneva Bible, etc.

                                          Are you interested mostly in translations into English or would you
                                          also be interested e.g. in Martin Luther's translation into German?
                                          Although Luther's translation has been reworked and more modern
                                          German translations exist, certain passages (e.g. Psalm 23) are kept
                                          in Luther's translation in modern German Bibles (the Protestant ones
                                          only, of course - the Catholic Bible is different). These passages
                                          are usually formatted differently, e.g. in italic.

                                          Best regards,

                                          Christina

                                          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., s_krasley@r... wrote:
                                          > Can anyone of you theology students help me out.
                                          > I'm looking for a copy of a bible, of course it has to be
                                          > one that is older then the King James version.
                                          > What I'm saying is what is the oldest version of the Bible
                                          > available? Either on the Web or for sale.
                                          > I am compairing passages from one Bible to another, looking to
                                          > see how much the interpretation has changed the meaning of things.
                                          > Believe this is not my usual course of study so any help or
                                          direction
                                          > is greatly appreciated.
                                          >
                                          > - Brynn
                                        • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
                                          Thanks Christina, I ll remember that as I start my translations. Maybe what I will wind up doing is several translation from different sources to see how they
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Oct 2, 2001
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                                            Thanks Christina, I'll remember that as I start my translations.
                                            Maybe what I will wind up doing is several translation from different
                                            sources to see how they differ.

                                            - Brynn

                                            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Christina_Lemke@h... wrote:
                                            > Hi Brynn,
                                            >
                                            > when you are looking at older translations (into Middle English,
                                            > Early Modern English, Early Modern German etc.) you must be aware
                                            > that the meaning of the words in the target language may have
                                            changed
                                            > over the centuries. Don't fall into the "New Criticism trap"!
                                            >
                                            > Is there a specific passage you are looking at, or whose meaning
                                            you
                                            > want to investigate? Then your best starting point would be the
                                            > original text (Hebrew or Greek) compared in the oldest extant
                                            > manuscripts, plus an extensively annotated translation by an
                                            > excellent modern translator. Then compare with the Bishop's Bible,
                                            > Geneva Bible, etc.
                                            >
                                            > Are you interested mostly in translations into English or would you
                                            > also be interested e.g. in Martin Luther's translation into German?
                                            > Although Luther's translation has been reworked and more modern
                                            > German translations exist, certain passages (e.g. Psalm 23) are
                                            kept
                                            > in Luther's translation in modern German Bibles (the Protestant
                                            ones
                                            > only, of course - the Catholic Bible is different). These passages
                                            > are usually formatted differently, e.g. in italic.
                                            >
                                            > Best regards,
                                            >
                                            > Christina
                                            >
                                            >
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