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Re: Help with Italian Renn doublet

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  • ivinian@hotmail.com
    ... Men s ... Ooh! Thank you. I m working from view .. er.. 2, I think. The V-back, with a 3 long skirty-thing. It s all done except for the closures! I found
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 1, 2001
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      --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Sunny Medlock" <sunnyday78723@y...> wrote:
      > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., ivinian@h... wrote:
      > > I'm hoping that someone here can help me with a project that is
      > > nearing completion -- an Italian Renn doublet (1480s-ish).
      > >
      > > I'm getting to the point where I have to decide how it's going to
      > > close. The directions (Period Patterns.. bleh)
      >
      > I understand your frustration with Period Patterns. Is it #43
      Men's
      > Italian Renaissance Garments? Which view are you making? Let me
      > look up some sources and get back to you.
      >
      > Elisabetta

      Ooh! Thank you. I'm working from view .. er.. 2, I think. The V-back,
      with a 3" long skirty-thing. It's all done except for the closures!

      I found a portrait enlargement of a woman's bodice that had rings
      just sewn onto the fabric -- not holes in the fabric, just rings over
      it -- that looks very appealing. I imagine it's pretty applicable,
      men's to women's laces like that.

      Thanks, Elisabetta! It is very greatly appreciated.

      Aoda
    • Sunny Medlock
      ... back, with a 3 long skirty-thing. It s all done except for the closures! I am very familiar with that pattern. I m wondering, have you had difficulty
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 1, 2001
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        > Ooh! Thank you. I'm working from view .. er.. 2, I think. The V-
        back, with a 3" long skirty-thing. It's all done except for the
        closures!

        I am very familiar with that pattern. I'm wondering, have you had
        difficulty with the gathered sleeves? In one of those views, (I
        can't remember if it's view I or II) they tell you to gather the
        sleeve into the armhole, but the sleeve is only big enough to set
        into the armhole smoothly. Very frustrating when you don't have
        enough fabric to cut a new sleeve.
        >
        > I found a portrait enlargement of a woman's bodice that had rings
        > just sewn onto the fabric -- not holes in the fabric, just rings
        over it -- that looks very appealing. I imagine it's pretty
        applicable, men's to women's laces like that.

        Like the Madonna of the Baseball breast in the Melun Diptych by Jean
        Fouquet? She's got tiny little lacing rings sewn to the inside of
        her cote.

        I have also seen it with eylet holes though the fabric. Check out
        Concert by COSTA, Lorenzo (1485-95); then there's Portrait of
        Francesco delle Opere by PERUGINO, Pietro (1494), but I'm not really
        sure what we're looking at. It appears to be a doublet that buttons
        at the neck, and then laces over the chest, but with a panel
        underneath. It could be another garment, but I don't know what it
        would be. You can find them at http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/index1.html
        I have made 2 garments like this, and I have used buttons on both
        (because of the wearer's request), but I have never seen examples of
        buttons used. Probably because this was primarily an undergarment
        for under a houppelande sort of thing. I don't recall any examples
        with the metal lacing eyelets used, but that doesn't mean it didn't
        happen. Sorry I couldn't find more, all my books are still in boxes
        (and will be for a while I suspect, some bookshelves were damaged in
        the move and need to be replaced). Hope that helps some!

        Elisabetta
      • ivinian@hotmail.com
        ... It gathered a teeny bit at the shoulder, and that s about it. I noticed that too. But there s lots of poof there, so I m not sure cutting it even bigger
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 3, 2001
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Sunny Medlock" <sunnyday78723@y...> wrote:
          > > Ooh! Thank you. I'm working from view .. er.. 2, I think. The V-
          > back, with a 3" long skirty-thing. It's all done except for the
          > closures!
          >
          > I am very familiar with that pattern. I'm wondering, have you had
          > difficulty with the gathered sleeves? In one of those views, (I
          > can't remember if it's view I or II) they tell you to gather the
          > sleeve into the armhole, but the sleeve is only big enough to set
          > into the armhole smoothly. Very frustrating when you don't have
          > enough fabric to cut a new sleeve.

          It gathered a teeny bit at the shoulder, and that's about it. I
          noticed that too. But there's lots of poof there, so I'm not sure
          cutting it even bigger would make it look better. It DOES look very
          nice, but it certainly didn't gather much into the armhole.

          > Like the Madonna of the Baseball breast in the Melun Diptych by
          Jean
          > Fouquet? She's got tiny little lacing rings sewn to the inside of
          > her cote.

          *nod* like that exactly. I found rings that are slightly bigger, but
          I'll keep an eye open for rings that are the correct size.


          > I have made 2 garments like this, and I have used buttons on both
          > (because of the wearer's request), but I have never seen examples
          of
          > buttons used. Probably because this was primarily an undergarment
          > for under a houppelande sort of thing. I don't recall any examples
          > with the metal lacing eyelets used, but that doesn't mean it didn't
          > happen. Sorry I couldn't find more, all my books are still in
          boxes
          > (and will be for a while I suspect, some bookshelves were damaged
          in
          > the move and need to be replaced). Hope that helps some!
          >
          > Elisabetta

          As always it certainly did, thank you :)

          This doublet is also for use under a larger outer garment. I know
          buttons had to be used somewhere, at least in ladies' garments,
          because sumptuary laws at least in Florence were in place to control
          how many buttons were used on the front of gowns. But I don't know
          exactly how men's garments went.

          Speaking of which, were you the gracious lady who offered to scan the
          Herald book? If so, how proceeds that worthy endeavor? My condolences
          on the bookshelves :( My bookshelves are also very treasured at my
          house!

          Thanks again,
          Aoda
        • Sunny Medlock
          ... had difficulty with the gathered sleeves? ... ... When I was working on that pattern, the gentle I was helping with it really liked the gathers at the
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 3, 2001
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            > > I am very familiar with that pattern. I'm wondering, have you
            had difficulty with the gathered sleeves? ...
            >
            > It gathered a teeny bit at the shoulder, and that's about it. I
            > noticed that too. But there's lots of poof there, so I'm not sure
            > cutting it even bigger would make it look better. It DOES look very
            > nice, but it certainly didn't gather much into the armhole.

            When I was working on that pattern, the gentle I was helping with it
            really liked the gathers at the shoulder. We were very disapointed
            when the pattern wasn't drafted the way we had thought and instead we
            cut slits spaced about 1" all the way around and inserted gussets
            into the sleeve to get the desired fullness. It turned out well in
            the end, but I would have prefered it were less misleading.
            >
            >
            > > ...but I have never seen examples
            of buttons used. Probably because this was primarily an undergarment
            for under a houppelande sort of thing. ...
            > >
            > > Elisabetta
            >
            > As always it certainly did, thank you :)

            Your welcome! It's so rare that I feel I can offer information on
            this list (I more often feel like a sponge soaking up info).
            >
            > This doublet is also for use under a larger outer garment. I know
            buttons had to be used somewhere, at least in ladies' garments,
            because sumptuary laws at least in Florence were in place to control
            how many buttons were used on the front of gowns. But I don't know
            exactly how men's garments went.

            From what I have seen, there were lots of buttons used on men's
            overgarments (check out the Triumph of Minerva Frescos by Cossa at
            http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/c/cossa/schifano/ and as far as women
            go, check out Carlo Crivelli. Some of his Madonna's are very
            oppulent. What are your sources for the sumptuary laws? I am most
            interested in that.
            >
            > Speaking of which, were you the gracious lady who offered to scan
            the Herald book? If so, how proceeds that worthy endeavor?

            *Blushing and hiding* Yes, that was me. I do have it scaned, and I
            am now working on putting it into a more easily read format. When I
            moved, I had to return my computer to where I bought it for some
            repair work (I got a new hard drive and graphics card and I am just
            waiting for it to arrive here). At the moment, I am working on my
            husband's computer (which doesn't have a cd burner), so I am afraid
            it might be a while yet. My deepest appologies. I do, however,
            still have the list of everyone that requested it, you are on it, and
            will keep you posted on my progress.

            My condolences on the bookshelves :( My bookshelves are also very
            treasured at my house!

            Thank you. Fortunately, there is an Ikea close by, and they have
            shelves that are almost identical to the damaged one, and I needed
            more for my ever expanding library anyway.
            >
            > Thanks again,
            > Aoda

            Anytime.
            Elisabetta
          • ivinian@hotmail.com
            ... know ... control ... women ... Ah yes, I see now. I wonder if they were ornamental or what though.. I mean, with the v-shaped back neckline, the garment
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 3, 2001
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Sunny Medlock" <sunnyday78723@y...> wrote:
              > > This doublet is also for use under a larger outer garment. I
              know
              > buttons had to be used somewhere, at least in ladies' garments,
              > because sumptuary laws at least in Florence were in place to
              control
              > how many buttons were used on the front of gowns. But I don't know
              > exactly how men's garments went.
              >
              > From what I have seen, there were lots of buttons used on men's
              > overgarments (check out the Triumph of Minerva Frescos by Cossa at
              > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/c/cossa/schifano/ and as far as
              women
              > go, check out Carlo Crivelli. Some of his Madonna's are very
              > oppulent. What are your sources for the sumptuary laws? I am most
              > interested in that.

              Ah yes, I see now. I wonder if they were ornamental or what though..
              I mean, with the v-shaped back neckline, the garment DOES slip right
              on and off. They can't be ornamental in the sense of "not having
              buttonholes", because at least one of those fellows in the fresco is
              clearly wearing buttonholed buttons, but I wonder if they were really
              actually used or needed.

              The sumptuary paper I saw was at this site:
              http://www.armory.com/~skuld/venice.html

              I found it just fascinating. I told Elewyiss about the yellow veil
              thing, and her basic response was, "It must have sucked to have been
              a Jewish woman there" (she's a Jewish persona, studies gravitating
              toward 1400-1500 Europe).

              One question: How do they get that peculiar lacing in some of those
              views, with the laces running horizontally from side to side with no
              crossings ("x's")? I wondered. It must be done from the inside, but I
              can't figure it out for the life of me.

              Aoda
            • Danielle Nunn-Weinberg
              ... ... I just posted a file under Gwendoline s Clothing Stuff called ladder lacing. It will give you a diagram of how to do it. It is a variant on
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 3, 2001
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                At 02:56 AM 9/4/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                >--- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Sunny Medlock" <sunnyday78723@y...> wrote:
                > > > This doublet is also for use under a larger outer garment. I
                >know
                > > buttons had to be used somewhere, at least in ladies' garments,
                > > because sumptuary laws at least in Florence were in place to
                >control
                > > how many buttons were used on the front of gowns. But I don't know
                > > exactly how men's garments went.
                > >
                > > From what I have seen, there were lots of buttons used on men's
                > > overgarments (check out the Triumph of Minerva Frescos by Cossa at
                > > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/c/cossa/schifano/ and as far as
                >women
                > > go, check out Carlo Crivelli. Some of his Madonna's are very
                > > oppulent. What are your sources for the sumptuary laws? I am most
                > > interested in that.

                <snip>

                >One question: How do they get that peculiar lacing in some of those
                >views, with the laces running horizontally from side to side with no
                >crossings ("x's")? I wondered. It must be done from the inside, but I
                >can't figure it out for the life of me.

                I just posted a file under "Gwendoline's Clothing Stuff" called ladder
                lacing. It will give you a diagram of how to do it. It is a variant on
                spiral lacing.

                Cheers,
                Gwendoline
              • Sunny Medlock
                ... what though... ... right on and off. They can t be ornamental in the sense of not having buttonholes , because at least one of those fellows in the fresco
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 4, 2001
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                  > Ah yes, I see now. I wonder if they [buttons] were ornamental or
                  what though...
                  > I mean, with the v-shaped back neckline, the garment DOES slip
                  right on and off. They can't be ornamental in the sense of "not
                  having buttonholes", because at least one of those fellows in the
                  fresco is clearly wearing buttonholed buttons, but I wonder if they
                  were really actually used or needed.

                  If you're talking about "Allegory of April: Triumph of Venus (right
                  view)", the fellow in the front with the gold over-garment and all
                  the buttons, in my opinion, those are needed as that the garment is
                  fitted with what I suspect is a seam at the waistline and a circular
                  skirt attached. As for all the ones with the houppleande/pleated
                  tabard variants from the research I have seen, those pleats are sewn
                  to tapes to hold them in place (one at the bust line, one at the
                  waist line and possibly one at the hem line, check out Elizabeth
                  Bibari's book Dress in Painting(? or something like that), it has
                  some good pictures of that detail), and I suspect that buttons or
                  ties would be needed at the neckline.
                  >
                  > The sumptuary paper I saw was at this site:
                  http://www.armory.com/~skuld/venice.html
                  > I found it just fascinating...

                  Just be careful if you are using that for Florentine clothing. In
                  general, the Florentines were more soberly dressed than the Venetians
                  at the same time (and more than most other Italian from what I can
                  tell)
                  >
                  > Aoda

                  Elisabetta
                • Venera di Nardiello
                  ... Warning! Bad ACII art. This is how I do it. You can start at either end. Solid lines are on outside of gown and dashed ones on the inside. Start
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 4, 2001
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                    --- ivinian@... wrote:
                    > One question: How do they get that peculiar lacing
                    > in some of those
                    > views, with the laces running horizontally from side
                    > to side with no
                    > crossings ("x's")? I wondered. It must be done from
                    > the inside, but I
                    > can't figure it out for the life of me.
                    >
                    > Aoda


                    Warning! Bad ACII art. <G>

                    This is how I do it. You can start at either end.
                    Solid lines are on outside of gown and dashed ones on
                    the inside.

                    Start (with a basic bulky knot on the inside of the
                    gown pull lace through to outside, straight across and
                    down into corresponding eyelet on the other side)
                    |________
                    /
                    /
                    /
                    /
                    /
                    /
                    /
                    /
                    /________
                    /
                    /
                    /
                    /
                    /
                    /
                    /
                    /
                    /________
                    |
                    End (I use a double half-hitch knot as it's
                    easiest for me to undo)

                    This is also known as spiral lacing.
                    I prefer it over ladder lacing since I'm paranoid
                    about things staying laced. <G>

                    Venera di Nardiello

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