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Help with Italian Renn doublet

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  • ivinian@hotmail.com
    I m hoping that someone here can help me with a project that is nearing completion -- an Italian Renn doublet (1480s-ish). I m getting to the point where I
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 30, 2001
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      I'm hoping that someone here can help me with a project that is
      nearing completion -- an Italian Renn doublet (1480s-ish).

      I'm getting to the point where I have to decide how it's going to
      close. The directions (Period Patterns.. bleh) say to lace it up the
      front on the outside, but is that documentable? Is inside better?

      This is a front-closing, fairly form-fitting doublet. I'm not sure if
      it's form-fitting enough for hooks and eyes near the top, though.

      I'm having trouble locating doublets in my sources to find lacing
      examples -- everybody keeps putting jerkins and stuff over them!
      (dumb fashionable Italians) The jerkins themselves appear to be laced
      on the inside quite often, but I'm not sure if doublets would be too.
      I know there was a brief period where doublets were worn alone with
      hose (something DB has up to now refused even to consider), but can't
      seem to find portraits of that period. Any aid you can give will be
      most appreciated!

      Humbly and with thanks,
      Aoda
    • Sunny Medlock
      ... I understand your frustration with Period Patterns. Is it #43 Men s Italian Renaissance Garments? Which view are you making? Let me look up some sources
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 31, 2001
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        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., ivinian@h... wrote:
        > I'm hoping that someone here can help me with a project that is
        > nearing completion -- an Italian Renn doublet (1480s-ish).
        >
        > I'm getting to the point where I have to decide how it's going to
        > close. The directions (Period Patterns.. bleh)

        I understand your frustration with Period Patterns. Is it #43 Men's
        Italian Renaissance Garments? Which view are you making? Let me
        look up some sources and get back to you.

        Elisabetta
      • ivinian@hotmail.com
        ... Men s ... Ooh! Thank you. I m working from view .. er.. 2, I think. The V-back, with a 3 long skirty-thing. It s all done except for the closures! I found
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 1, 2001
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Sunny Medlock" <sunnyday78723@y...> wrote:
          > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., ivinian@h... wrote:
          > > I'm hoping that someone here can help me with a project that is
          > > nearing completion -- an Italian Renn doublet (1480s-ish).
          > >
          > > I'm getting to the point where I have to decide how it's going to
          > > close. The directions (Period Patterns.. bleh)
          >
          > I understand your frustration with Period Patterns. Is it #43
          Men's
          > Italian Renaissance Garments? Which view are you making? Let me
          > look up some sources and get back to you.
          >
          > Elisabetta

          Ooh! Thank you. I'm working from view .. er.. 2, I think. The V-back,
          with a 3" long skirty-thing. It's all done except for the closures!

          I found a portrait enlargement of a woman's bodice that had rings
          just sewn onto the fabric -- not holes in the fabric, just rings over
          it -- that looks very appealing. I imagine it's pretty applicable,
          men's to women's laces like that.

          Thanks, Elisabetta! It is very greatly appreciated.

          Aoda
        • Sunny Medlock
          ... back, with a 3 long skirty-thing. It s all done except for the closures! I am very familiar with that pattern. I m wondering, have you had difficulty
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 1, 2001
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            > Ooh! Thank you. I'm working from view .. er.. 2, I think. The V-
            back, with a 3" long skirty-thing. It's all done except for the
            closures!

            I am very familiar with that pattern. I'm wondering, have you had
            difficulty with the gathered sleeves? In one of those views, (I
            can't remember if it's view I or II) they tell you to gather the
            sleeve into the armhole, but the sleeve is only big enough to set
            into the armhole smoothly. Very frustrating when you don't have
            enough fabric to cut a new sleeve.
            >
            > I found a portrait enlargement of a woman's bodice that had rings
            > just sewn onto the fabric -- not holes in the fabric, just rings
            over it -- that looks very appealing. I imagine it's pretty
            applicable, men's to women's laces like that.

            Like the Madonna of the Baseball breast in the Melun Diptych by Jean
            Fouquet? She's got tiny little lacing rings sewn to the inside of
            her cote.

            I have also seen it with eylet holes though the fabric. Check out
            Concert by COSTA, Lorenzo (1485-95); then there's Portrait of
            Francesco delle Opere by PERUGINO, Pietro (1494), but I'm not really
            sure what we're looking at. It appears to be a doublet that buttons
            at the neck, and then laces over the chest, but with a panel
            underneath. It could be another garment, but I don't know what it
            would be. You can find them at http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/index1.html
            I have made 2 garments like this, and I have used buttons on both
            (because of the wearer's request), but I have never seen examples of
            buttons used. Probably because this was primarily an undergarment
            for under a houppelande sort of thing. I don't recall any examples
            with the metal lacing eyelets used, but that doesn't mean it didn't
            happen. Sorry I couldn't find more, all my books are still in boxes
            (and will be for a while I suspect, some bookshelves were damaged in
            the move and need to be replaced). Hope that helps some!

            Elisabetta
          • ivinian@hotmail.com
            ... It gathered a teeny bit at the shoulder, and that s about it. I noticed that too. But there s lots of poof there, so I m not sure cutting it even bigger
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 3, 2001
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Sunny Medlock" <sunnyday78723@y...> wrote:
              > > Ooh! Thank you. I'm working from view .. er.. 2, I think. The V-
              > back, with a 3" long skirty-thing. It's all done except for the
              > closures!
              >
              > I am very familiar with that pattern. I'm wondering, have you had
              > difficulty with the gathered sleeves? In one of those views, (I
              > can't remember if it's view I or II) they tell you to gather the
              > sleeve into the armhole, but the sleeve is only big enough to set
              > into the armhole smoothly. Very frustrating when you don't have
              > enough fabric to cut a new sleeve.

              It gathered a teeny bit at the shoulder, and that's about it. I
              noticed that too. But there's lots of poof there, so I'm not sure
              cutting it even bigger would make it look better. It DOES look very
              nice, but it certainly didn't gather much into the armhole.

              > Like the Madonna of the Baseball breast in the Melun Diptych by
              Jean
              > Fouquet? She's got tiny little lacing rings sewn to the inside of
              > her cote.

              *nod* like that exactly. I found rings that are slightly bigger, but
              I'll keep an eye open for rings that are the correct size.


              > I have made 2 garments like this, and I have used buttons on both
              > (because of the wearer's request), but I have never seen examples
              of
              > buttons used. Probably because this was primarily an undergarment
              > for under a houppelande sort of thing. I don't recall any examples
              > with the metal lacing eyelets used, but that doesn't mean it didn't
              > happen. Sorry I couldn't find more, all my books are still in
              boxes
              > (and will be for a while I suspect, some bookshelves were damaged
              in
              > the move and need to be replaced). Hope that helps some!
              >
              > Elisabetta

              As always it certainly did, thank you :)

              This doublet is also for use under a larger outer garment. I know
              buttons had to be used somewhere, at least in ladies' garments,
              because sumptuary laws at least in Florence were in place to control
              how many buttons were used on the front of gowns. But I don't know
              exactly how men's garments went.

              Speaking of which, were you the gracious lady who offered to scan the
              Herald book? If so, how proceeds that worthy endeavor? My condolences
              on the bookshelves :( My bookshelves are also very treasured at my
              house!

              Thanks again,
              Aoda
            • Sunny Medlock
              ... had difficulty with the gathered sleeves? ... ... When I was working on that pattern, the gentle I was helping with it really liked the gathers at the
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 3, 2001
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                > > I am very familiar with that pattern. I'm wondering, have you
                had difficulty with the gathered sleeves? ...
                >
                > It gathered a teeny bit at the shoulder, and that's about it. I
                > noticed that too. But there's lots of poof there, so I'm not sure
                > cutting it even bigger would make it look better. It DOES look very
                > nice, but it certainly didn't gather much into the armhole.

                When I was working on that pattern, the gentle I was helping with it
                really liked the gathers at the shoulder. We were very disapointed
                when the pattern wasn't drafted the way we had thought and instead we
                cut slits spaced about 1" all the way around and inserted gussets
                into the sleeve to get the desired fullness. It turned out well in
                the end, but I would have prefered it were less misleading.
                >
                >
                > > ...but I have never seen examples
                of buttons used. Probably because this was primarily an undergarment
                for under a houppelande sort of thing. ...
                > >
                > > Elisabetta
                >
                > As always it certainly did, thank you :)

                Your welcome! It's so rare that I feel I can offer information on
                this list (I more often feel like a sponge soaking up info).
                >
                > This doublet is also for use under a larger outer garment. I know
                buttons had to be used somewhere, at least in ladies' garments,
                because sumptuary laws at least in Florence were in place to control
                how many buttons were used on the front of gowns. But I don't know
                exactly how men's garments went.

                From what I have seen, there were lots of buttons used on men's
                overgarments (check out the Triumph of Minerva Frescos by Cossa at
                http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/c/cossa/schifano/ and as far as women
                go, check out Carlo Crivelli. Some of his Madonna's are very
                oppulent. What are your sources for the sumptuary laws? I am most
                interested in that.
                >
                > Speaking of which, were you the gracious lady who offered to scan
                the Herald book? If so, how proceeds that worthy endeavor?

                *Blushing and hiding* Yes, that was me. I do have it scaned, and I
                am now working on putting it into a more easily read format. When I
                moved, I had to return my computer to where I bought it for some
                repair work (I got a new hard drive and graphics card and I am just
                waiting for it to arrive here). At the moment, I am working on my
                husband's computer (which doesn't have a cd burner), so I am afraid
                it might be a while yet. My deepest appologies. I do, however,
                still have the list of everyone that requested it, you are on it, and
                will keep you posted on my progress.

                My condolences on the bookshelves :( My bookshelves are also very
                treasured at my house!

                Thank you. Fortunately, there is an Ikea close by, and they have
                shelves that are almost identical to the damaged one, and I needed
                more for my ever expanding library anyway.
                >
                > Thanks again,
                > Aoda

                Anytime.
                Elisabetta
              • ivinian@hotmail.com
                ... know ... control ... women ... Ah yes, I see now. I wonder if they were ornamental or what though.. I mean, with the v-shaped back neckline, the garment
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 3, 2001
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Sunny Medlock" <sunnyday78723@y...> wrote:
                  > > This doublet is also for use under a larger outer garment. I
                  know
                  > buttons had to be used somewhere, at least in ladies' garments,
                  > because sumptuary laws at least in Florence were in place to
                  control
                  > how many buttons were used on the front of gowns. But I don't know
                  > exactly how men's garments went.
                  >
                  > From what I have seen, there were lots of buttons used on men's
                  > overgarments (check out the Triumph of Minerva Frescos by Cossa at
                  > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/c/cossa/schifano/ and as far as
                  women
                  > go, check out Carlo Crivelli. Some of his Madonna's are very
                  > oppulent. What are your sources for the sumptuary laws? I am most
                  > interested in that.

                  Ah yes, I see now. I wonder if they were ornamental or what though..
                  I mean, with the v-shaped back neckline, the garment DOES slip right
                  on and off. They can't be ornamental in the sense of "not having
                  buttonholes", because at least one of those fellows in the fresco is
                  clearly wearing buttonholed buttons, but I wonder if they were really
                  actually used or needed.

                  The sumptuary paper I saw was at this site:
                  http://www.armory.com/~skuld/venice.html

                  I found it just fascinating. I told Elewyiss about the yellow veil
                  thing, and her basic response was, "It must have sucked to have been
                  a Jewish woman there" (she's a Jewish persona, studies gravitating
                  toward 1400-1500 Europe).

                  One question: How do they get that peculiar lacing in some of those
                  views, with the laces running horizontally from side to side with no
                  crossings ("x's")? I wondered. It must be done from the inside, but I
                  can't figure it out for the life of me.

                  Aoda
                • Danielle Nunn-Weinberg
                  ... ... I just posted a file under Gwendoline s Clothing Stuff called ladder lacing. It will give you a diagram of how to do it. It is a variant on
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 3, 2001
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                    At 02:56 AM 9/4/2001 +0000, you wrote:
                    >--- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Sunny Medlock" <sunnyday78723@y...> wrote:
                    > > > This doublet is also for use under a larger outer garment. I
                    >know
                    > > buttons had to be used somewhere, at least in ladies' garments,
                    > > because sumptuary laws at least in Florence were in place to
                    >control
                    > > how many buttons were used on the front of gowns. But I don't know
                    > > exactly how men's garments went.
                    > >
                    > > From what I have seen, there were lots of buttons used on men's
                    > > overgarments (check out the Triumph of Minerva Frescos by Cossa at
                    > > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/c/cossa/schifano/ and as far as
                    >women
                    > > go, check out Carlo Crivelli. Some of his Madonna's are very
                    > > oppulent. What are your sources for the sumptuary laws? I am most
                    > > interested in that.

                    <snip>

                    >One question: How do they get that peculiar lacing in some of those
                    >views, with the laces running horizontally from side to side with no
                    >crossings ("x's")? I wondered. It must be done from the inside, but I
                    >can't figure it out for the life of me.

                    I just posted a file under "Gwendoline's Clothing Stuff" called ladder
                    lacing. It will give you a diagram of how to do it. It is a variant on
                    spiral lacing.

                    Cheers,
                    Gwendoline
                  • Sunny Medlock
                    ... what though... ... right on and off. They can t be ornamental in the sense of not having buttonholes , because at least one of those fellows in the fresco
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 4, 2001
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                      > Ah yes, I see now. I wonder if they [buttons] were ornamental or
                      what though...
                      > I mean, with the v-shaped back neckline, the garment DOES slip
                      right on and off. They can't be ornamental in the sense of "not
                      having buttonholes", because at least one of those fellows in the
                      fresco is clearly wearing buttonholed buttons, but I wonder if they
                      were really actually used or needed.

                      If you're talking about "Allegory of April: Triumph of Venus (right
                      view)", the fellow in the front with the gold over-garment and all
                      the buttons, in my opinion, those are needed as that the garment is
                      fitted with what I suspect is a seam at the waistline and a circular
                      skirt attached. As for all the ones with the houppleande/pleated
                      tabard variants from the research I have seen, those pleats are sewn
                      to tapes to hold them in place (one at the bust line, one at the
                      waist line and possibly one at the hem line, check out Elizabeth
                      Bibari's book Dress in Painting(? or something like that), it has
                      some good pictures of that detail), and I suspect that buttons or
                      ties would be needed at the neckline.
                      >
                      > The sumptuary paper I saw was at this site:
                      http://www.armory.com/~skuld/venice.html
                      > I found it just fascinating...

                      Just be careful if you are using that for Florentine clothing. In
                      general, the Florentines were more soberly dressed than the Venetians
                      at the same time (and more than most other Italian from what I can
                      tell)
                      >
                      > Aoda

                      Elisabetta
                    • Venera di Nardiello
                      ... Warning! Bad ACII art. This is how I do it. You can start at either end. Solid lines are on outside of gown and dashed ones on the inside. Start
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 4, 2001
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                        --- ivinian@... wrote:
                        > One question: How do they get that peculiar lacing
                        > in some of those
                        > views, with the laces running horizontally from side
                        > to side with no
                        > crossings ("x's")? I wondered. It must be done from
                        > the inside, but I
                        > can't figure it out for the life of me.
                        >
                        > Aoda


                        Warning! Bad ACII art. <G>

                        This is how I do it. You can start at either end.
                        Solid lines are on outside of gown and dashed ones on
                        the inside.

                        Start (with a basic bulky knot on the inside of the
                        gown pull lace through to outside, straight across and
                        down into corresponding eyelet on the other side)
                        |________
                        /
                        /
                        /
                        /
                        /
                        /
                        /
                        /
                        /________
                        /
                        /
                        /
                        /
                        /
                        /
                        /
                        /
                        /________
                        |
                        End (I use a double half-hitch knot as it's
                        easiest for me to undo)

                        This is also known as spiral lacing.
                        I prefer it over ladder lacing since I'm paranoid
                        about things staying laced. <G>

                        Venera di Nardiello

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